Does God loves the devil?

[Jonaitis]

No, God does not love the devil.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why not? Especially if mankind was created in the image of God.

because He is infinite and eternal

 

[Not David]

No, God does not love the devil.

Why do you think that?

 

[Jonaitis]

Why do you think that?

It is a deeper discussion than I would try to explain in this one post, but I'll put it in points.

1. When we speak of the love of God we cannot find it anywhere outside of Christ. God's love is not only displayed in Christ, but understood and experienced in him. As believers in Christ, we transition to being under God's wrath to God's mercy (Eph. 1:3-14). Satan does not have a share in that.

2. Hell, as it is well-known, is an eternal punishment inflicted on God's enemies, the objects of his wrath and hatred. When Scripture speaks of God's love, it is more than a mere feeling. It is active toward a person, and it is experienced by that person. Believers experience or enjoy God's love not only in this life (forgiveness, etc), but in eternity in glory (eternal life, happiness, etc). Scripture speaks of Satan's part in that very place and state of eternity in hellfire. "The face of the Lord is against those who do evil, to cut off the memory of them from the earth" (Ps. 34:16)

3. God is perfect in holiness. It is common to hear Christians today say that God hates the sin but not the sinner, but this isn't true. God must hate what opposes what he loves, what is right, what is good, including sinners (Ps. 5:4-5). God does not separate sin from the sinner, because sin comes from the sinner and his sinful heart. We are "by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3). What we do expresses what we are, and what we are is what God hates. This is the same for Satan, who was "a murderer from the beginning" (John. 8:44). If God's image bearers are under his wrath for sin, no less is Satan. His holiness does not tolerate sin, and is determined to punish it in wrath, as discussed in point #2. Even believers were once in a state of God's hatred and wrath, until they came to be washed in the blood of Christ who had suffered that malediction on the cross, as discussed in point #1. It is in Christ's death, God's wrath satisfied; it is in Christ's accomplishment in obedience (including death) that we are loved. "The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence" (Ps. 11:15).

4. God's love is covenantal. Holy Writ knows nothing of God's love beyond his children. He displays and conveys it in a covenant relationship. The Jews had the Old Covenant as the basis God's love and commitment toward them, and Christians has the New Covenant as the basis of God's love and commitment toward us. God displays his love toward his covenant people in the very extent of what he promises to bless them with in the agreement (ex. Israel had Canaan, be a fruitful people, etc) In suggesting that God loves all people indiscriminately removes the distinction between God's children and the world. Satan is not only outside of any covenant relationship with God, but he is very leader of this present darkness in the world (2 Cor. 4:4). He is remote to any sort of divine love.

These are just a few short reasons, there are more. Now, some may argue that John 3:16 teaches us that God loves everyone the same. In quickly addressing this, I want to point out that this was said in the context of Jesus speaking privately to Nicodemus, a religious Jew (as the text says). It was always understood among the Jews that God loves his people, particularly the covenant people of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. When Jesus said what he said in John 3:16, it broke that idea that God's love was bound only to Jews, but also to the nations who were of the world. It is displayed to those who believe leading to eternal life, in that same verse.

Some will use the text where it says that God makes it rain on the righteous and the wicked, but this is speaking of God's goodness toward man, not his love. We must distinguish between God's goodness to mankind, and God's love toward his people. Love is a personal quality, not an indiscriminate gift to all. Goodness doesn't require love. I am not required to love my neighbor's children as my own in order to show them good.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

No. Christ came to save fallen man, not fallen angels.

Doesn't mean that He(God) doesn't love him(Lucifer) because he(Lucifer) is not redeemable. I believe He loves all His creation.

 

[Selene03]

Doesn't mean that He(God) doesn't love him(Lucifer) because he(Lucifer) is not redeemable. I believe He loves all His creation.

Of course not. God created man, the angels, and everything out of love. He love Lucifer because he was created by God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It is a deeper discussion than I would try to explain in this one post, but I'll put it in points.

1. When we speak of the love of God we cannot find it anywhere outside of Christ. God's love is not only displayed in Christ, but understood and experienced in him. As believers in Christ, we transition to being under God's wrath to God's mercy (Eph. 1:3-14). Satan does not have a share in that.

2. Hell, as it is well-known, is an eternal punishment inflicted on God's enemies, the objects of his wrath and hatred. When Scripture speaks of God's love, it is more than a mere feeling. It is active toward a person, and it is experienced by that person. Believers experience or enjoy God's love not only in this life (forgiveness, etc), but in eternity in glory (eternal life, happiness, etc). Scripture speaks of Satan's part in that very place and state of eternity in hellfire. "The face of the Lord is against those who do evil, to cut off the memory of them from the earth" (Ps. 34:16)

3. God is perfect in holiness. It is common to hear Christians today say that God hates the sin but not the sinner, but this isn't true. God must hate what opposes what he loves, what is right, what is good, including sinners (Ps. 5:4-5). God does not separate sin from the sinner, because sin comes from the sinner and his sinful heart. We are "by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3). What we do expresses what we are, and what we are is what God hates. This is the same for Satan, who was "a murderer from the beginning" (John. 8:44). If God's image bearers are under his wrath for sin, no less is Satan. His holiness does not tolerate sin, and is determined to punish it in wrath, as discussed in point #2. Even believers were once in a state of God's hatred and wrath, until they came to be washed in the blood of Christ who had suffered that malediction on the cross, as discussed in point #1. It is in Christ's death, God's wrath satisfied; it is in Christ's accomplishment in obedience (including death) that we are loved. "The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence" (Ps. 11:15).

4. God's love is covenantal. Holy Writ knows nothing of God's love beyond his children. He displays and conveys it in a covenant relationship. The Jews had the Old Covenant as the basis God's love and commitment toward them, and Christians has the New Covenant as the basis of God's love and commitment toward us. God displays his love toward his covenant people in the very extent of what he promises to bless them with in the agreement (ex. Israel had Canaan, be a fruitful people, etc) In suggesting that God loves all people indiscriminately removes the distinction between God's children and the world. Satan is not only outside of any covenant relationship with God, but he is very leader of this present darkness in the world (2 Cor. 4:4). He is remote to any sort of divine love.

These are just a few short reasons, there are more. Now, some may argue that John 3:16 teaches us that God loves everyone the same. In quickly addressing this, I want to point out that this was said in the context of Jesus speaking privately to Nicodemus, a religious Jew (as the text says). It was always understood among the Jews that God loves his people, particularly the covenant people of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. When Jesus said what he said in John 3:16, it broke that idea that God's love was bound only to Jews, but also to the nations who were of the world. It is displayed to those who believe leading to eternal life, in that same verse.

Some will use the text where it says that God makes it rain on the righteous and the wicked, but this is speaking of God's goodness toward man, not his love. We must distinguish between God's goodness to mankind, and God's love toward his people. Love is a personal quality, not an indiscriminate gift to all. Goodness doesn't require love. I am not required to love my neighbor's children as my own in order to show them good.

you really are incorrect here. you are looking at love way too much like someone from today.

plus, point 4 is just incorrect. if God's love were covenential as you describe it, He would not have shown so much love to those outside of the OT covenant.

 

[Jonaitis]

you really are incorrect here. you are looking at love way too much like someone from today.

plus, point 4 is just incorrect. if God's love were covenential as you describe it, He would not have shown so much love to those outside of the OT covenant.

Please explain, and what is your definition of love?

We don't read much, if at all, of God's love in a passive way, it is always active. We do not read that God actively loves Satan. He tolerates him for a while, but he will eventually punish him for an eternity.

On your disagreement with divine love being built on a covenant, what is the point of a covenant then?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Please explain, and what is your definition of love?

We don't read much, if at all, of God's love in a passive way, it is always active. We do not read that God actively loves Satan. He tolerates him for a while, but he will eventually punish him for an eternity.

On your disagreement with divine love being built on a covenant, what is the point of a covenant then?

wrath and judgment are what love is when confronting sin. so God, pouring wrath and judgment on Satan proves His love for him. which is what torments the devil.

well, the point of the convenant is love, but if God's love were only covenantial there would be no love to those outside of the covenant. and God shows His love to those outside the covenant on more than one occasion.

 

[~Anastasia~]

3. God is perfect in holiness. It is common to hear Christians today say that God hates the sin but not the sinner, but this isn't true. God must hate what opposes what he loves, what is right, what is good, including sinners (Ps. 5:4-5). God does not separate sin from the sinner, because sin comes from the sinner and his sinful heart. We are "by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3). What we do expresses what we are, and what we are is what God hates. This is the same for Satan, who was "a murderer from the beginning" (John. 8:44). If God's image bearers are under his wrath for sin, no less is Satan. His holiness does not tolerate sin, and is determined to punish it in wrath, as discussed in point #2. Even believers were once in a state of God's hatred and wrath, until they came to be washed in the blood of Christ who had suffered that malediction on the cross, as discussed in point #1. It is in Christ's death, God's wrath satisfied; it is in Christ's accomplishment in obedience (including death) that we are loved. "The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence" (Ps. 11:15).

It seems to me, if you follow this logic, God will hate every child who is born. Or at least begin to hate him the moment he willfully does anything wrong.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Too many posts above to quote that begin to get into this, but we must remember that God IS agape-love. It's what HE is, and His nature isn't dependent upon any created being's actions (human or angelic).

How He might deal with Satan out of that love is His prerogative.

We sometimes think of God as if He were a man, and apply our own understanding of what love is, what it looks like, onto God.

 

[Jonaitis]

wrath and judgment are what love is when confronting sin. so God, pouring wrath and judgment on Satan proves His love for him. which is what torments the devil.

well, the point of the convenant is love, but if God's love were only covenantial there would be no love to those outside of the covenant. and God shows His love to those outside the covenant on more than one occasion.

I would agree with you if you had said that God's wrath shows his love for justice and what is right, but I would not say that God's wrath shows God's love, or that God shows his love by hating that individual in wrath. Discipline leads to good, eternal punishment in this case does nothing but harm that person in justice. Hell is not consistent with love, since it is the very place of divine hatred.

I was talking to a good friend of mine about this this morning, and he made a good point: God's love always reciprocates back to him from the creature. "We love because he first loved us" (1 John. 4:19). He never spends his love on someone who never returns it, it always has the end of thanksgiving and praise. "It shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11). Such a thing is absent from the reprobate, including Satan.

You said that God's love can reside outside of a covenant, but I think you are confusing that with his general kindness and goodness toward man. I addressed this above. He is kind and good to all, but that does not mean he loves them.

Besides this, the entire framework of Scripture is built on covenants. God never reveals himself, or his love, apart from a covenant relationship.

 

[Jonaitis]

It seems to me, if you follow this logic, God will hate every child who is born. Or at least begin to hate him the moment he willfully does anything wrong.

God does hate us from the moment we are conceived, because we are born in sin. "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5). I quoted before that we are "by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3). We are born condemned and corrupt in our sin.

If you believe God is perfect in holiness, there is no freedom to say that he compromises what he hates or how he hates it. If he has perfect love for righteousness, he has perfect hatred for sin (Ps. 5:4-5). We are sinners by nature, and in practice. We are actively God's enemies until we are reconciled through the death of Christ. "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation" (Rom. 5:10-11). There is no text that says God's love is ever outside of Christ. It is in, and through, and from Christ we are loved by God. All that he is and all that he did for us, who receive him and his benefits, is God's love toward us. Outside of him is wrath and indignation.

 

[StrivingFollower]

I used to have this belief that you're supposed to love all people, but hate demons, but I found it to be very counterproductive in my walk. I'd hate demons, and sure it separated me from them well at times, but it also allowed them to play with my dark emotions. When I sympathize with them like you would a lost person, except they're lost to an incredible, insane degree, I feel like I have much more power over them. So I do think God still loves them in some way. When you think about it, the only thing God lives for is love. All his vengeance is heated to be sure that love is protected and upheld.

 

[~Anastasia~]

God does hate us from the moment we are conceived, because we are born in sin. "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5). I quoted before that we are "by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3). We are born condemned and corrupt in our sin.

If you believe God is perfect in holiness, there is no freedom to say that he compromises what he hates or how he hates it. If he has perfect love for righteousness, he has perfect hatred for sin (Ps. 5:4-5). We are sinners by nature, and in practice. We are actively God's enemies until we are reconciled through the death of Christ. "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation" (Rom. 5:10-11). There is no text that says God's love is ever outside of Christ. It is in, and through, and from Christ we are loved by God. All that he is and all that he did for us, who receive him and his benefits, is God's love toward us. Outside of him is wrath and indignation.

Thanks for clarifying your point. It is one I am familiar with. We strongly disagree on the nature of God. It is not only through rationalizing our way through what is included in Scripture that we come to view God.

However it IS there in the Scriptures. We should look first to Christ, rather than separating (especially Old Testament) quotes from Him. Because He is of course God, and in perfect unity with the Father, of the same will toward man. He did not hate the children who were brought to Him to be blessed, nor condemn the woman caught in adultery, and he loved the rich young ruler who couldn't find it in himself to part with his riches for Christ's sake.

I know this is a debate forum, and I don't wish to debate. I only wished to clarify with surety what you believe. But we as Orthodox (along with the early Church we are in continuity with) ... cannot imagine a God who hates infants ...

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would agree with you if you had said that God's wrath shows his love for justice and what is right, but I would not say that God's wrath shows God's love, or that God shows his love by hating that individual in wrath. Discipline leads to good, eternal punishment in this case does nothing but harm that person in justice. Hell is not consistent with love, since it is the very place of divine hatred.

I was talking to a good friend of mine about this this morning, and he made a good point: God's love always reciprocates back to him from the creature. "We love because he first loved us" (1 John. 4:19). He never spends his love on someone who never returns it, it always has the end of thanksgiving and praise. "It shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11). Such a thing is absent from the reprobate, including Satan.

You said that God's love can reside outside of a covenant, but I think you are confusing that with his general kindness and goodness toward man. I addressed this above. He is kind and good to all, but that does not mean he loves them.

Besides this, the entire framework of Scripture is built on covenants. God never reveals himself, or his love, apart from a covenant relationship.

again, you are using a modern notion of what love is.

as far as covenants go, God certainly showed love to people outside of the covenants. to say that His love was established in the covenants is correct, but to say His love is limited to the covenant is not.

plus to say God's can be kind and good without being loving to some is foolish. God doesn't change. so if God IS love, and love is kind according to St Paul, then God IS kind.

 

[Jonaitis]

again, you are using a modern notion of what love is.

as far as covenants go, God certainly showed love to people outside of the covenants. to say that His love was established in the covenants is correct, but to say His love is limited to the covenant is not.

plus to say God's can be kind and good without being loving to some is foolish. God doesn't change. so if God IS love, and love is kind according to St Paul, then God IS kind.

It is not as modern as you think it is, I didn't pull this out a hat just for discussion. Besides that, "love" as it is defined in our day and age is this passive, emotional, non-critical, flexible feeling we stir up.

God is "love," but you have to understand what that means. Some are quick to pull this, as you might know, to say that this is proof that God never hates. He is love, love, love. This, in fact, is very secular, modern, and false. God is certainly love, but we must not neglect his wrath as it is properly defined.

I don't understand how it is foolish to say God is kind and good without having to love?

 

[Jonaitis]

But we as Orthodox (along with the early Church we are in continuity with) ... cannot imagine a God who hates infants ...

Seven Day Adventists cannot image God punishing sinners for eternity, and Univeralists cannot imagine God punishing anyone period. We must be honest with what God has told us, that's my concern.

 

[Jonaitis]

But we as Orthodox (along with the early Church we are in continuity with)

People don't realize how much EO and RCC strikingly resembles the different streams of Rabbinical Judaism. But, this is for another discussion and is not related to the OP.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It is not as modern as you think it is, I didn't pull this out a hat just for discussion. Besides that, "love" as it is defined in our day and age is this passive, emotional, non-critical, flexible feeling we stir up.

God is "love," but you have to understand what that means. Some are quick to pull this, as you might know, to say that this is proof that God never hates. He is love, love, love. This, in fact, is very secular, modern, and false. God is certainly love, but we must not neglect his wrath as it is properly defined.

I don't understand how it is foolish to say God is kind and good without having to love?

I am not defining love as it is defined in our day, or as you are. nor am I neglecting His wrath properly defined.

as for your second point, Scripture says God doesn't change, Scripture says God is love, Scripture says love is kind. therefore, if God is being kind, God is showing love. the fact that you bring this point up shows you don't get what love is as defined in the ancient Church.

which means that while you reject the warm fuzzies definition of love (rightly so), you are still defining it through very modern means.