Does God love all or some?

Does God love all or some?


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fhansen

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So, from that perspective, what does the term "the elect" mean in the scope of God's love for everyone? Sounds like favoritism. - lol
From our perspective the elect are those who love God in return because He first loved us. We can’t and don’t really need to know more except to recognize that while we cannot love as God wants without His grace, love always involves choice, or else it’s not love. So love is both a gift, and a human choice to accept and embrace that gift, ultimately to love as He does.

A classic understanding, in fact, is that God, foreknowing the future, incorporates man’s choices into His election, so “predestination” is qualified in that sense.
 
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fhansen

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Do you think we love God by loving others? I read something the other day that said the two are not equivalent. God is not others, and therefore loving others is not equivalent to loving God.

That makes logical sense, but I think the Incarnation throws a lot of wrenches in what usually would make intuitive sense, lol.
I think so.
The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ Matt 25:40
 
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fhansen

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Does he love unrepentant sinners a little less, maybe?
I think God laments the unrepentant sinner.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise,as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” 1 Pet 3:9
 
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fhansen

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If God loves sinners, they share in his glory. They have value. If God hates sinners, and he saves them, he receives full glory.
Yes, but sinners who fail to love remain sinners: love would be their glory, as love is the primary glory of God. Love, by its nature, wills the good of others, regardless of their sinfulness, ignorance, darkness; it seeks to bring them into the light of love.
 
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Dave L

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Yes, but sinners who fail to love remain sinners: love would be their glory, as love is the primary glory of God. Love, by its nature, wills the good of others, regardless of their sinfulness, ignorance, darkness; it seeks to bring them into the light of love.
So sinners save themselves by exercising human love instead of God's love?
 
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fhansen

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So sinners save themselves by exercising human love instead of God's love?
No, sinners are saved as they respond to God’s love, with the love He gives them. They cannot muster that love on their own, but they can refuse it.

Everything we have, including our very existence, comes from God and His goodness. But we don’t have to acknowledge even that, or even His existence, let alone get on board with His will even when He calls.
 
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Dave L

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No, sinners are saved as they respond to God’s love, with the love He gives them. They cannot muster that love on their own, but they can refuse it.

Everything we have, including our very existence, comes from God and His goodness. But we don’t have to acknowledge even that, let alone get on board with His will even when He calls.
Sinners cannot respond to God unless he first saves them. They only choose idols otherwise.
 
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fhansen

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Sinners cannot respond to God unless he first saves them. They only choose idols otherwise.
That’s a somewhat skewed gospel. God’s been patiently working on the will of man since the Fall, when, by an act of the will, the first man chose wrongly. The very reason that we have so much time, so many centuries of grueling human history in a world where the evil of sin and death may be contrasted against grace and the life only the Creator can provide is precisely because God wants the human will involved and deems it right and good to educate, appeal to, and draw it without totally overriding it. Man is lost, dead, sick and cannot possibly find, raise, or cure himself, but he can still refuse all that; grace is resistible.

We have to understand that God has a plan behind this work of creation, a plan that’s worked out over time. He’s not merely endeavoring to save a certain group of otherwise worthless wretches while damning the rest, but to produce something in this work of His creating, something grand, something better than He began with. God seeks to have man learn the value of love above all created things in this universe, so that we’ll ultimately choose it, choose Him, and grow firmer and more fully in that choice that defines righteousness for man. Because love, in order to truly be love, always involves the element of choice and that’s where man’s potential purpose, perfection, and greatness lie. Due to the size, the magnanimity, of Gods love, He wishes to share, to glorify man by transforming him into His very own image. To the extent that creation gets on board with His perfect will we reflect His glory, and thus glorify Him. Love begetting love, which will make life truly worth living, eternally.
 
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Dave L

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That’s a somewhat skewed gospel. God’s been patiently working on the will of man since the Fall, when, by an act of the will, the first man chose wrongly. The very reason that we have so much time, so many centuries of grueling human history in a world where the evil of sin and death may be contrasted against grace and the life only the Creator can provide is precisely because God wants the human will involved and deems it right and good to educate, appeal to, and draw it without totally overriding it. Man is lost, dead, sick and cannot possibly find, raise, or cure himself, but he can still refuse all that; grace is resistible.

We have to understand that Gods endeavoring to produce something in this work of His creating, something grand, something better than He began with. God seeks to have man learn the value of love above all created things in this universe, so that we’ll ultimately choose it, choose Him, and grow firmer and more fully in that choice that defines righteousness for man. Because love, in order to truly be love, always involves the element of choice and that’s where man’s potential purpose, perfection, and greatness lies. Due to the size, the magnanimity, of Gods love, He wishes to share, to glorify man by transforming him into His very own image.
This is not the bible's position. Have you ever considered Calvin and Luther were right about "free will"?
 
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Strong in Him

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Sinners cannot respond to God unless he first saves them. They only choose idols otherwise.

No, sinners cannot respond to God unless his Spirit is working in their lives to draw them to him.
And that happens through the prayers of others.
 
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ViaCrucis

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God loves everyone. Full stop.

There is no such thing, and there never will be such a thing, as a someone that God does not love; for all things sprang forth from His love, and all things are held in His love. Love is how the universe began, and love is how the universe shall ever be.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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fhansen

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This is not the bible's position. Have you ever considered Calvin and Luther were right about "free will"?
Yes, and now both of us know they were wrong :). Besides Calvin and Luther, and well before them, many other thinkers and theologians of the church have struggled with the issue of God's sovereignty versus man's will. And the church, itself, historically has never come down on the side of eliminating man's will completely from the equation because that would ultimately do violence to the gospel and God's plans.

The bottom line is that it's entirely possible for God to grant free will to created beings, meaning the ability to oppose even His will, and sovereignly deem it right and good that they should use that will appropriately. Even fallen man is a morally accountable being as we all intuitively know and is expected, to the extent he can and with the help of grace, to do the right thing, even if in baby steps at first.

Anyway, I think it'd be productive to consider the canons of the Second Council of Orange because it provides insight into actual church thinking and teaching on the matter. I'm sure Calvin was aware of that council as it employed many concepts from the writings of Augustine as he was battling Pelagianism some 75 years earlier. He would have applauded everything except one part in the Conclusion where man becomes definitely involved.

And FWIW here's a paragraph from the part of the catechism which addresses justification where the church's position on this matter is summed up:
1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42
 
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Saint Steven

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I don't believe that God created ALL in his image and from his love, and then decided to "elect" only a few to know that love.
I agree.
Sorry, I didn't realize that you are a Universalist. Welcome aboard. - lol
 
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Saint Steven

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From our perspective the elect are those who love God in return because He first loved us. We can’t and don’t really need to know more except to recognize that while we cannot love as God wants without His grace, love always involves choice, or else it’s not love. So love is both a gift, and a human choice to accept and embrace that gift, ultimately to love as He does.

A classic understanding, in fact, is that God, foreknowing the future, incorporates man’s choices into His election, so “predestination” is qualified in that sense.
It seems that the biblical term "elect" is a bomb we disarm with the term "foreknowledge". That way we can blame the victims of eternal conscious torment rather than the supposed perpetrator.

God loves you unconditionally. But if you don't return his love he will incinerate you.
What's wrong with this picture?
 
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Strong in Him

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I agree.
Sorry, I didn't realize that you are a Universalist. Welcome aboard. - lol

I'm not.

I didn't say that all would be saved, I said that all are loved.
Christ died for sinners - how many non sinners are there in the world, or have there ever been?

Some people will choose to never hear/bother with the Gospel. It doesn't mean Christ didn't love or die for them.
 
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fhansen

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It seems that the biblical term "elect" is a bomb we disarm with the term "foreknowledge". That way we can blame the victims of eternal conscious torment rather than the supposed perpetrator.

God loves you unconditionally. But if you don't return his love he will incinerate you.
What's wrong with this picture?
The other side, of unqualified election, seems to be that He either saves or incinerates you without regard to anything you choose to do. Then the perpetrator becomes God, responsible for all evil and the eternal torment of those he predestines to burn. Either way we're talking about man's obligation to be righteous and the first step is simply union with God thru faith before anything else because man has no righteousness apart from Him.

So how about this: failing to love, by adamantly remaining in sin and alienated from God first of all, is to burn, to gnash one's teeth, eternally if that's what we prefer. Even if God prefers that we would do otherwise. He doesn't need to send us there in that case IOW; we're already there.

God is uncompromisingly on man's side, always has been, and that's a major message of the cross. So He'll continue to work patiently to draw us to Himself but at the end of the day justice and goodness and love still demand that good and evil don't coexist forever and that we choose between two, holding His hand as He helps us make and confirm and grow stronger in and live out that choice.
 
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Saint Steven

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I'm not.

I didn't say that all would be saved, I said that all are loved.
Christ died for sinners - how many non sinners are there in the world, or have there ever been?

Some people will choose to never hear/bother with the Gospel. It doesn't mean Christ didn't love or die for them.
Did Christ succeed, or fail, at his mission? Why was he sent?

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
 
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Saint Steven

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Either way we're talking about man's obligation to be righteous and the first step is simply union with God thru faith before anything else because man has no righteousness apart from Him.
Isn't that a contradiction? Humankind has an obligation to be righteous, but we have no righteousness apart from him. Reminds me of this.

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
 
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Cormack

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God loves all, but does God love all the same? No, he doesn't.

Skipping the preamble really helps though. If your wife or significant female partner asks “do you love me?” We all know the kind of love they’re asking about. Replying “of course I love you, like how I love a smooth cigarette, smoked in the presence of a bracing wind and a clear blue sky,” that’s not being straight with her.

When people ask if God loves everyone they’re asking about deep, abiding, maximal love, God’s perfect kind of love.
 
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