• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Featured Does God love all or some?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by public hermit, Feb 20, 2021.

Tags:
  1. God loves all

    93.6%
  2. God loves some

    6.4%
  1. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

    +5,840
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    In Agape and Eros, Anders Nygren argues that God's love is spontaneous and unmotivated. He argues that the ground of God's love is found within God and has no extrinsic motivation. It is not because humans are lovable that God loves them, but simply because God is love.

    This is why there was disagreement between Jesus and the religious leaders. The assumption of the religious leaders was that God's love was given to the righteous because they were righteous. What motivated God's love was their righteousness. So, when Jesus loves sinners it made no sense to them, and in fact seemed contrary to the character of God. But, of course Jesus being divine, his love was not motivated by the object of love, but came from within himself. He loved because he is love. And because his love was not motivated by the object of his love, he was free to love everyone.

    If God loves all, it is because God's love comes from God's own self (i.e. God is love).

    If God only loves some, it is because God's love is motivated by the righteousness of the beloved.

    "If God's love were restricted to the righteous it would be evoked by its object and not spontaneous; but just by the fact that it seeks sinners, who do not deserve it and can lay no claim to it, it manifests most clearly its spontaneous and unmotivated nature." Anders Nygren

    Does God love some or all?

    Agape and Eros - Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
    • Like x 5
    • Winner x 2
    • Useful x 2
    • Agree x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Hmm

    Hmm Rapture Threat Level: ORANGE

    +676
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Divorced
    I agree, He doesn't love us because of who we are but because of who He is. And this means that God loves all, not just some.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  3. A.ModerateOne

    A.ModerateOne Member Supporter

    180
    +119
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Others
    "The LORD appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." (Jer 31:3 ERV)

    The New Testament indicates some persons will go into everlasting fire, so they apparently were not loved with that "everlasting love".

    "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all peoples: but because the LORD loveth you, and because he would keep the oath which he sware unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." (Deut 7:6-8 ERV)
    "Know therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people." (Deut 9:6 ERV)

    "...for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (Rom 9:11-13 ERV)

    "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9 KJV)
    or
    "And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation," (Rev 5:9 Weymouth)

    It seems clear that God the Son redeemed some, not all, so how could it ever be said God loves everyone without exception, since God actually is said to hate some?
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    +6,282
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Interesting topic. Thanks.

    This scripture below brings up a couple of challenging points on the subject.
    1) There is no fear in love.
    2) Whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

    1 John 4:18-20 NIV
    There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
    19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.
     
  5. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

    +5,840
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    Would you say God loves only the righteous?
     
  6. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    +3,392
    Non-Denom
    Single
    God is love. No exceptions. Jesus died for all because Jesus loved them all.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  7. mlepfitjw

    mlepfitjw May you be blessed!

    +1,075
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Hello you,

    Was talking to myself on a walk.

    The only time Jesus Christ ever got upset with anyone was when the Pharisees were not showing love. They confessed that they were believers by their mouths and knew the religious law.

    They were selling sacrifices of animals to people to slaughter so peoples sins could be covered. However, they did not show love, instead showed contempt towards others, judgement towards others, and hatred towards others.

    You can see this because they hated Jesus Christ with a burning passion, and needed to get rid of Him.

    They missed one thing in the religious law they learned about, and that was to love their neighbor as their selves.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  8. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    +5,144
    Canada
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    God loves all, Jesus died for all.

    The old testament makes God look selfish just like any human, except powerful beyond words. This is because God needed to provide restrictions so lemmings would not leap off cliffs. This is because complete inward spiritual transformation simply was not possible, until the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    The new testament illustrates Jesus explaining and demonstrating how God really is especially in the way He died.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  9. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

    +5,840
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    Would you say that God's love us primarily revealed in the NT, because God's love is revealed in Jesus? I tend to think so. And, because of that, I think the OT, and it's claims concerning God should be tempered accordingly. In other words, The love of God as revealed in Christ is the lens through which we read and appropriate the OT.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  10. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

    +5,840
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    I think you're right. Do you think the same, or something similar, can happen today?
     
  11. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

    +5,840
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    Do you think we love God by loving others? I read something the other day that said the two are not equivalent. God is not others, and therefore loving others is not equivalent to loving God.

    That makes logical sense, but I think the Incarnation throws a lot of wrenches in what usually would make intuitive sense, lol.
     
  12. mlepfitjw

    mlepfitjw May you be blessed!

    +1,075
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    That is a very great question public hermit.

    As a child of God, it was known for me to judge people, and still sometimes hated people. Being chastened by God is no fun friend. So the answer to the questions was me living in that mode at first. Until someone taught me the came along and taught me to pay attention to what is being said and what is happening. Then my spiritual eyes were fully awoken and my growth from a child became into more growing into a teenager, into a full grow-up of maturity in the faith.

    Yes.

    @public hermit What say you friend in Christ? Have you seen this played out in your own life?
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    +6,282
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I think we love God indirectly when we love others. (they are not God)

    We love God by keeping his commands. Since he commands us to love each other, we love him indirectly by doing so.

    1 John 5:3
    In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  14. mlepfitjw

    mlepfitjw May you be blessed!

    +1,075
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    To your question Public Hermit.

    When it comes to Do you think we love God by loving others?

    When it comes to loving others, it is always a good reminder to not let them abuse, or only try to use you for their own pleasure. Jesus Christ tells us to let our yes be yes, and our no be no. You can as a Christian set yourself boundaries in this life, and do not have to go out of your way to please people. (You can pray for them - whoever they may be.)

    People can and try to use you. We can help them spiritually if they are in need or prayer or help when it comes to need some encouragement in the faith, of our Creator, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Just had this conversation the other day. We are living to please God, not others. It is a great thing to subject yourself to self assessment and judgment to what says your heart about the others around you.

    Do you judge them, do you hate them, do you gossip about them, do you curse them, are you envious of them, are you jealous of them.
     
  15. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

    +5,840
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    I think I understand what you're saying. I would agree that judgment, in terms of condemnation, and hate are malignant to one's love for others. I know as much from my own experience.

    That being said, I recognize the very differences between Jesus and the religious leaders, as you laid them out. So, I assume we could recognize the same if it were to occur today. Perhaps, this touches on the difference between judgment (condemnation) and discernment?
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

    +6,282
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    This question becomes challenging when we consider those we call "the elect".

    Though we try to talk around the point, claiming that they are God's Elect "by there own choice", it defeats the true definition of the word. To elect anything is to reject the other choices. Rejection is not love.

    If God did elect some and NOT elect others, then it seems that he does NOT love all.

    Especially if the non-Elect are consigned to eternal conscious torment as a result of God not electing them.
     
  17. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

    +41,947
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    Hello Public Hermit, this is a great (but difficult) topic for discussion, so thank you for broaching it :)

    That said, your author (at least at first blush) makes it sound like God has no control over who He loves, that His love for us is nothing more than some sort of Divine primal urge that must be fulfilled, IOW, that He does not choose to love us, but that (in a very real sense) He is forced to do so instead, by His nature. Something about that just seems wrong to me (especially where God is concerned).
    What "righteousness" could that possibly be, inherently speaking anyway (Romans 3:10-12, 23; Ephesians 2:1-3)?

    The Bible tells us what God's motivation (for loving us and choosing to save us) is ~not~ .. Mark 2:17; Romans 4:5, but why does His choice to love us (assuming that loving us ~is~ a real choice He makes) have to be based upon some intrinsic quality that He sees in us :scratch: (on what we are/what we are capable of doing, rather than on who we are, the children that He has chosen to adopt as His very own)?

    Along that same line of thought, what is the basis for our choice to love our newborn babies, or the motivation for adoptive parents to choose to love someone else's newborn baby? Perhaps there is another reason for God's choice to choose us/adopt us/love us than the one that your author insists upon?

    Or could your author be correct? After all, some level of "righteousness" does seem to be the basis for God's choice of Noah and his family (over all of the other people in the world), as well of Lot and his family (over all of the rest of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah). What do you think?

    Thanks :)

    --David
    p.s. - Israel also comes to mind. Was God motivated to choose them/love them as His very own on the basis of some quality or greatness that He saw in them?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  18. mlepfitjw

    mlepfitjw May you be blessed!

    +1,075
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    Sir, Public Hermit hope this helps you in your understanding.

    All that has been taught to me is having faith and love.

    When it is condensed down to just this notion, faith and love.

    There is so much more to it because of what the word of God has to say.

    Having faith, what does that really mean?

    (To place all of your trust/confidence belief all on the Lord Jesus Christ, and God loving them with all your mind, all your heart, all your soul.)

    To place Jesus Christ as the center part of your life, live and breathe as though Jesus Christ is living with-in you. The same spirit that raised Him lives with in us, as does the Spirit of Christ - Christ in us Lives with-in us.

    What is expressed afterwards is love. For anyone, and everyone no matter what they have done in the context of their whole life.

    (I have a problem with making deep connecting relationships, though what Jesus Christ has shown me, allows me to judge myself and where my heart is like explained above.)

    If Christ Jesus is seen in me, that is all that matters for as Paul puts it ; to live is Christ. All that matters is that the new creation God has made me into.

    From an old person who use hate, who use to judge, who use to condemn.

    When it comes down to it we can discern people and their actions, we can still be kind, gentle, to them regardless of the things that might have been heard by our ears.

    When people say bad things about others, we show no reaction nor do we add anything extra that should not be said. For to us to live is to live as Christ.

    It is not our job to condemn people - we can simply tell them the truth and let God do the condemnation, and judging. Love is said not to be rude either way. Sometimes we can just leave the situation keeping our own peace, and pray about whatever it is.

    We can be discerning because of learning of our own nature - looking at ourselves in the mirror and the person that once was and has been made renewed in Christ Jesus.

    Suffering with Christ Jesus is a real thing.
     
  19. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

    +5,840
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    But, of course, if God's love comes from God's self, regardless of the object, then one's "choice" plays no role in whether one is loved by God or not. God's love will be the same for everyone. And, if it's the same, then the outcome of that love is the same.
     
  20. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

    +5,840
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Others
    Nicely put. :)
     
Loading...