Does God invoke FEAR in anyone anymore?

[Nadiine]

No, I don't, I just believe that Paul was referring to himself as a sinner in the past tense, like he does elsewhere ("... Christ died for us while we were sinners). I don't ignore this one verse, I just see in in context with the rest.

I haven't said we don't sin, but I am saying that it's not our behaviour that decides who we are. With your logic we must conclude that a sinner/unsaved person is not only a sinner, but also righteous if he does something good.

As for sheer numbers, verses that call us "holy," "sanctified," "righteous," "clean" and so forth, most definitely outnumbers this one verse, which I in addition believe you interpret wrongly.

You ARE a sinner, YOU SIN. Sorry to break the news.

The verse of Paul is in PRESENT tense, therefore you cannot claim it's past tense. And number of times a fact is given has no bearing on it's validity (or lack thereof).

The command not to commit beastiality is mentioned one time in the Bible that I know of... I don't think the fact that it's said once removes it's weight any or makes it plausible.

Originally Posted by holo
No. I don't fear my parents at all, and the only times I feared them as a child, was when I was afraid they were going to punish me for messing up.

God doesn't punish us for messing up.

Reread this verse:

Pro 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD [men] depart from evil.​

This verse is KEY in understanding FEAR of God. Because of the FEAR of God (what God can do in discipline, punishment), it KEEPS US from evil. We have a FEAR of His authority & power, so we do NOT live in sin. If we knew God did nothing about evil, we'd be more prone to sin without any guilt & wouldn't worry about any consequences.​

SAME with parents. We obeyed our parents often becuz we knew what they'de do if we got caught - we didn't want to get in trouble.
SAME CONCEPT.​

This is how "fear" works. you OBEY civil rules, becuz the consequence is jailtime or arrest from authorities, etc. You obey for FEAR of what can happen​

 

[holo]

What? He doesn't? Scripture says other wise. We are told we are disciplined.

Disciplined, perhaps. Not punished. The punishment was laid on Christ.

 

[holo]

You ARE a sinner, YOU SIN. Sorry to break the news.

Am I a sinner because I sin?

Why are you righteous, Nadiine? What is it that makes you righteous? If good works don't make you righteous person, how can bad works make you a sinner? How can you actions determine you ridentity?

You used to be a sinner because you were born a sinner. You didn't become a sinner the first time you sinned, you were a sinner by nature. Do you agree with that?

The verse of Paul is in PRESENT tense, therefore you cannot claim it's past tense. And number of times a fact is given has no bearing on it's validity (or lack thereof).

The command not to commit beastiality is mentioned one time in the Bible that I know of... I don't think the fact that it's said once removes it's weight any or makes it plausible.

The bible also says, in the present tense, that the earth stands on poles. We interpret stuff all the time.

Besides, you're accusing me of changing the tense when you are changing it yourself. Paul writes specifically that we were sinners, but you change the tense.

Yes, beastiality is mentioned only once, in a commandment given to jews. That doesn't mean it would be ok for me to do it. And the reason I don't do it, has nothing to do with commandments.

 

[holo]

Reread this verse:

Pro 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD [men] depart from evil.

This verse is KEY in understanding FEAR of God. Because of the FEAR of God (what God can do in discipline, punishment), it KEEPS US from evil. We have a FEAR of His authority & power, so we do NOT live in sin. If we knew God did nothing about evil, we'd be more prone to sin without any guilt.​

The reason I don't live in sin, has nothing to do with being afraid of God/judgment. In fact, fear only got in the way so that I never came all the way to the Lord who is the only one who could actually deliver me from sin.

You're fooling yourself if you think you can conquer sin by fear.

SAME with parents. We obeyed our parents often becuz we knew what they'de do if we got caught - we didn't want to get in trouble.
SAME CONCEPT.

I mentioned somewhere else that norwegian and american culture is very different when it comes to parenting. I wasn't a good kid because I was afraid of being caught, I was a nice kid because my parents were nice.

Anyway, complying with rules out of fear wouldn't make me a good person, only a scared one. God does NOT want you to live in fear! God does NOT want you to be afraid of him as if he's going to punish you. He has already punished Jesus on your behalf. Don't make it count for nothing.​

 

[jad123]

Disciplined, perhaps. Not punished. The punishment was laid on Christ.

We are splitting hairs on this one. One of the definitions American Heritage uses to define discipline is punishment intended to correct or change.

 

[holo]

Sounds reasonable. I think we tend to get stuck on things like this because greek and hebrew are so different from our languages.

 

[jad123]

Am I a sinner because I sin?

Am I a murderer because I murder someone?
Am I a rapist if I rape someone?
Am I a teacher because I teach?
Am I a sinner becasue I sin?

The answer to ALL of the above is Yes!!!!

 

[Nadiine]

The reason I don't live in sin, has nothing to do with being afraid of God/judgment. In fact, fear only got in the way so that I never came all the way to the Lord who is the only one who could actually deliver me from sin.

You're fooling yourself if you think you can conquer sin by fear.

The BIBLE SAID 'BY FEAR OF THE LORD WE DEPART FROM EVIL'. If you disagree then fine. I accept what it says.
If you have zero fear of God Almighty, and no guilt for sin, and God never punishes you, maybe that's not such a good thing. Had you ever stopped to think about that?

Most of us know how authority and obedience work.
The issue isn't WHY you do something, the Deterrent is still in place to keep us in check. Without the possibility of punishment or authority, we are much more prone to freely do wrong & stay in sin.
Again, missing the forest for the clump of weeds.

 

[RonnyRulz]

It's incredibly Simple. "God is Love" If God is Love, then Love = God. "There is no fear in Love." Thus, Love = God. "There is no fear in God."
I am not misquoting this verse, because God and Love are the same word. Same meaning. Same Person. God is Love. Love is God. If you say I'm misquoting this verse, then you are saying the Bible is wrong. The Bible is not wrong.

Very very simple, and very very clear. The Bible is right on this, there is no fear in God. The fear the rest of the Bible uses is not fear, it's respect and awe. Huge difference. They really should fix this. It's very clear, fear is evil, and there is no fear in God.

There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18

 

[jad123]

It's incredibly Simple. "God is Love" If God is Love, then Love = God. "There is no fear in Love." Thus, Love = God. "There is no fear in God."
I am not misquoting this verse, because God and Love are the same word. Same meaning. Same Person. God is Love. Love is God. If you say I'm misquoting this verse, then you are saying the Bible is wrong. The Bible is not wrong.

Very very simple, and very very clear. The Bible is right on this, there is no fear in God. The fear the rest of the Bible uses is not fear, it's respect and awe. Huge difference. They really should fix this. It's very clear, fear is evil, and there is no fear in God.

There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18

You are misquoting scripture and ignoring many others.

 

[holo]

Am I a murderer because I murder someone?
Am I a rapist if I rape someone?
Am I a teacher because I teach?
Am I a sinner becasue I sin?

The answer to ALL of the above is Yes!!!!

Then why are you righteous? Because you do good works? No, because you believe. Because you're born again. Because that's your born identity. Right?

You're not a sinner. You were a sinner. You can act like an idiot all you want, that doesn't make you retarded. You can act like dog, you can bark and glue hairs on your back, but you'll still be a human.

Your spirit, your inner man, is born of God and cannot sin.

 

[Nadiine]

It's incredibly Simple. "God is Love" If God is Love, then Love = God. "There is no fear in Love." Thus, Love = God. "There is no fear in God."
I am not misquoting this verse, because God and Love are the same word. Same meaning. Same Person. God is Love. Love is God. If you say I'm misquoting this verse, then you are saying the Bible is wrong. The Bible is not wrong.

Very very simple, and very very clear. The Bible is right on this, there is no fear in God. The fear the rest of the Bible uses is not fear, it's respect and awe. Huge difference. They really should fix this. It's very clear, fear is evil, and there is no fear in God.

There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18
There is no fear in God. 1 John 4:18

1 John 4:18 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

The word "God" is NOT "love". Let's get that perfectly clear. Pure Love is an attribute of God.
As is Justice, Mercy, Truth & Holiness.
The bible also says "God is Holy" and "God is Spirit" , the word "spirit" & "holy" are not the word for "God" either.

The verse is also ABOUT OUR JUDGMENT, not about God himself. It's talking about the FEAR of God judging us.
We fear the torment of judgment.

In other words, if you have fears at judgment, YOU HAVE NOT BEEN PERFECTED (COMPLETE) IN LOVE YET.

You may not have fully been completed in your love. Read the beginning of the verse, "herein is OUR LOVE made perfect".

This isn't talking about not having a general "fear" of God Himself, but our love towards God not being complete yet (if we fear judgment of Him at judgment time in context).

See Mat. 17:4-6, the disciples hear the voice of God coming out of the clouds & fell on their faces & were "greatly afraid". Fear is the natural reaction to great POWER and things that are foreign to us.

The FEAR I referred to in my posts, WAS STANDING IN THE PRESENCE OF God or an angel in a vision/visitation - where you see them falling on their faces and in fear.
THAT should be normal. Not of being punished at judgment.

Not the same fear being talked about - sometimes like being in a very heavy storm... weather disasters, etc. A loud thunderstorm closeby can do that - power/authority.

If God himself standing in front of you wouldn't produce a type of 'fear' like that, then maybe we envision a different God or you view him alot more casually than I do!

 

[holo]

The BIBLE SAID 'BY FEAR OF THE LORD WE DEPART FROM EVIL'. If you disagree then fine. I accept what it says.

The bible also says, in the NT, that the grace of God teaches us to deny godliness. It also says that we become like him by looking at him. If you disagree then fine. I accept what it says.

If you have zero fear of God Almighty

I have more respect and awe for the Lord than for anybody else. I'm not afraid of him though. I really don't know why I should be. He became man and died on my behalf.

and no guilt for sin

Yes and halleluja!

No guilt for sin! Christ took it all, my sin is as far from me as the east is from the west!

and God never punishes you

True, he never punishes me. The punishment was laid on Jesus. If you think God is punishing you, you need to reconsider how you see things.

Most of us know how authority and obedience work.
The issue isn't WHY you do something

Yes it is! You can even give all you have to the poor, but if you have no love, it benefits you nothing. Jesus tried explaining that to the jews who did keep the law, but had no compassion. God looks to the heart.

the Deterrent is still in place to keep us in check.

The law and prophets had their time until John.

As I said, I'm a good guy not because I'm afraid of punishment, but because I'm a new creation. We love because HE loved us first. We do NOT love because we're afraid.

Without the possibility of punishment or authority, we are much more prone to freely do wrong & stay in sin.

I'm not. Are you?

Do you try not to sin because you're afraid of being punished by God? If you believed he wouldn't punish you, would you run right out and sin?

Anyway, I can testify that the opposite has happened to me. The less I'm afraid of God's punishment, the more I feel like loving people and live a clean life. My motivation has absolutetly nothing at all to do with fear. Don't you think God would rather want you to do good freely and willingly instead of forcing you with fear!?

 

[Nadiine]

Then why are you righteous? Because you do good works? No, because you believe. Because you're born again. Because that's your born identity. Right?

You're not a sinner. You were a sinner. You can act like an idiot all you want, that doesn't make you retarded. You can act like dog, you can bark and glue hairs on your back, but you'll still be a human.

Your spirit, your inner man, is born of God and cannot sin.

Well, You can't "be" a dog becuz you never were one. ~

IF you stopped sinning, and didn't need to repent of it, then I'd say "you aren't a sinner" anymore.

THUS THE 2 NATURES WE CARRY; FLESH (CORRUPTION) AND SPIRIT (NEWNESS IN SPIRIT).

BOTH operate at the same time (battling against one another). Christ's sacrifice & payment for our sin PRODUCES THE RIGHT STANDING WE HAVE IN GOD'S EYES.

Rom. 17:14-17 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (FLESH nature).

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

Even as a sinner, YOU ARE FREE THRU CHRIST FROM THE PENALTY OF THAT SIN after salvation. Read romans 8.
He saves you from the penalty of sin (spiritual death) your flesh still remains until you're fully regenerated.

We still sin, we're still called to REPENT & turn from it.

 

[holo]

It's starting to boil down to semantics
We agree more than we disagree.

Well, You can't "be" a dog becuz you never were one.

IF you stopped sinning, and didn't need to repent of it, then I'd say "you aren't a sinner" anymore.

If I stopped sinning, and then wasn't a sinner anymore, what would I be then? Righteous?

The problem is, you say people are righteous because of faith, not works. And at the same time you say they are sinners, not because of faith, but because of works. In other words, works can't save you, only condemn you...

THUS THE 2 NATURES WE CARRY; FLESH (CORRUPTION) AND SPIRIT (NEWNESS IN SPIRIT).

BOTH operate at the same time (battling against one another). Christ's sacrifice & payment for our sin PRODUCES THE RIGHT STANDING WE HAVE IN GOD'S EYES.
Rom. 17:14-17

I understand what you're saying about the two natures. But your body isn't your nature. Compare it with you being a child of your parents. You're their child only because your mother gave birth to you. Your identity doesn't change because of what you do. Your looks and your mental capacity have precious little to do with who you are.

It's important to realize your true identity, because every right you have in the kingdom, as a child of God - all those rights are because of your family tie with God. He hears you when you pray, not because you've been good, but because you're his. See what I mean? (even if you disagree?)

Yes, Christ has made it so that God declares us righteous - guilt-free, sinless, perfect. God finds no fault in you. Why disagree with him?

 

[holo]

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (FLESH nature).

Exactly.

 

[chris777]

No. I don't fear my parents at all, and the only times I feared them as a child, was when I was afraid they were going to punish me for messing up.

God doesn't punish us for messing up.

You started following me, then you took an off ramp.
As a child you feared your parents , because you feared punishment......
Now ask yourself which is worse, the punishment of a smack on the hand, that really stings, and causes a child to cry, that his parent punished him,.....or....... actually pulling the pot of boiling water off the stove and onto his face, scalding him.

Which is worse, giving a little girl a spanking that makes her [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] hurt for an hour, or ......letting her run into the street, and getting hit by a car causing injuries that last for a lifetime...or worse.

For example, it's pretty much unheard of here that a man more or less decides that his daughter can't date this or that dude. Stuff like grounding your child is rare too.

hate to breake the news to you but its getting that way more and more often here

From what I've seen, american parents enjoy a lot more authority and respect. I don't think that's necessarily a good thing though.

Secularly speaking maby, but scripturally speaking we are to honor our parents, whats wrong with that?

I wouldn't want my children to fear me in any way whatsoever. I hope to lead by example. When I think about my dad and how I want to be like him, it's never because of punishment. It's because he's so inspiring.

inspiration involves comprehension, sometimes fear is a much better motivator, when comprehension is lacking. Can't give meat to a child, and in many cases the children are still on milk waaay into their lives.

I don't think fear is actually motivation. It's desperation, it's being forced.

but like ronny keeps trying to do, its like you are applying one aspect of god into all situations. God is love, i agree, but does God love all things, no he does not.

I take the point, and I agree. But we, who are God's children, certainly don't need to be afraid of him.

But to totally loose that fear, even if its pushed into the back of your mind, does open the door for pride, the scriptures offer many warnings of punishments, and concequences if we didnt repent, the yare there for a reason.

 

[holo]

As a child you feared your parents , because you feared punishment......
Now ask yourself which is worse, the punishment of a smack on the hand, that really stings, and causes a child to cry, that his parent punished him,.....or....... actually pulling the pot of boiling water off the stove and onto his face, scalding him.

Which is worse, giving a little girl a spanking that makes her [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] hurt for an hour, or ......letting her run into the street, and getting hit by a car causing injuries that last for a lifetime...or worse.

Ah, but unlike human parents, God is around 24/7 and is perfectly able to tell you not to pull the pot over long before you actually get that far. Especially if you communicate with him often. At the same time, God does allow people to make mistakes (and learn from them).

Instead of punishing me into understanding that traffic is dangerous, the Lord has opened my eyes instead, and made me value my own and others' lives.

In fact, I can't think of one single situation where God has taught or guided me with punishment.

hate to breake the news to you but its getting that way more and more often here

Well, personally, I don't think parents should decide who their children gets romantically involved with. To me, that's an encroachment. And as you probably know, children tend to revolt against rules and find forbidden stuff tempting.

Secularly speaking maby, but scripturally speaking we are to honor our parents, whats wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that, but the reason I respect and honor my father is because he's a respectable and honorable man, not because I'm forced to.

inspiration involves comprehension, sometimes fear is a much better motivator, when comprehension is lacking. Can't give meat to a child, and in many cases the children are still on milk waaay into their lives.

True, we don't understand everything, and indeed God sometimes seems to allow us more suffering than we can handle. I don't know why. But I do know that I'm done living from fear. I'm determined to never again be controlled by fear when it comes to me facing myself, others, God, or life in general. Fear doesn't motivate, it threatens.

but like ronny keeps trying to do, its like you are applying one aspect of god into all situations. God is love, i agree, but does God love all things, no he does not.

True, and not to be forgotten.

But to totally loose that fear, even if its pushed into the back of your mind, does open the door for pride, the scriptures offer many warnings of punishments, and concequences if we didnt repent, the yare there for a reason.

Actually, I find that losing my fear (being scared) of God, also means pride has to go. When I see I have nothing to be afraid of in front of the Lord, when I see that it's ALL based on HIM accepting me, not on my ability to do (or even feel) anything, then pride flies right away. The more you understand grace, the less pride you can have. There's simply no place for it.

Yes, there are warnings for those who don't repent. I do repent

 

[intricatic]

God does chastise His children, and we are to fear His wrath, but to stand firmly in His Grace is a different idea entirely. One needs not weep and moan about salvation, but rejoice; but first one must understand with humility the fact that true and complete death is only a short distance away at any given point in our lives, before we received God's gift of Salvation. If it wasn't for the mercy and love of God, through Christ, we would stand condemned no matter what we do. Fear comes from that singular fact, that totally pervasive and yet extremely simple understanding of God's nature.

18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it , they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. 20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. 21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.
(Exodus 20:18-21, KJV)

The fear of God most certainly is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[RonnyRulz]

The word "God" is NOT "love". Let's get that perfectly clear. Pure

Okay, I am going to explain this to you. Pay close and careful attention. I will put it in a way that you can easily understand.

1 John 4:16
God is love

Okay, that's what the Bible verse says.

"God is Love"

God- Greek word used is 'Theos'

Theos- God, usually refers to the one true God.

God in that sentence, means God.
God is a noun- the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

'Theos' is the greek word used for 'God'.

Okay, understand so far? Read carefully...

"God is Love"

Is- verb (used without object)
1.to exist or live:
Shakespeare's “To be or not to be” is the ultimate question.
2.to take place; happen; occur: The wedding was last week. 3.to occupy a place or position: The book is on the table. 4.to continue or remain as before: Let things be. 5.to belong; attend; befall: May good fortune be with you. 6.(used as a copula to connect the subject with its predicate adjective, or predicate nominative, in order to describe, identify, or amplify the subject): Martha is tall. John is president. This is she. 7.(used as a copula to introduce or form interrogative or imperative sentences): Is that right? Be quiet! Don't be facetious. –auxiliary verb 8.(used with the present participle of another verb to form the progressive tense): I am waiting. 9.(used with the present participle or infinitive of the principal verb to indicate future action): She is visiting there next week. He is to see me today. 10.(used with the past participle of another verb to form the passive voice): The date was fixed. It must be done. 11.(used in archaic or literary constructions with some intransitive verbs to form the perfect tense): He is come. Agamemnon to the wars is gone.

That's what "is" means.

"God is Love"

Love- The word 'Love' in greek is "Agape".

Love- a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.

Agape- Love, in the NT usually the active love of God for his Son, and his people, and the active love his people are to have for God, each other, and even enemies.

Okay, do you understand so far?

English- "God is Love"
Greek- "Theos is Agape"

'God' is a word.
'Theos' is a word.
'Love' is a word.
'Agape' is a word.
These are both words.

Word- a unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning.

The word 'God' is (see definition of is) the word 'Love'.
'God' is a word. 'Love' is a word. Is describes that both words are each other. They are the same thing.

'Love' is the greek word 'Agape'. 'Agape' is a noun.

a‧ga‧pe2  /ɑˈgɑ

peɪ, ˈɑ

gəˌpeɪ, ˈæg

ə-/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ah-gah-pey, ah-guh-pey, ag-uh-]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -pae /-paɪ, -ˌpaɪ, -ˌpi/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[-pahy, -pahy, -pee]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, -pai /-paɪ, -ˌpaɪ/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[-pahy, -pahy]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciationfor 3. 1.the love of God or Christ for humankind. 2.the love of Christians for other persons, corresponding to the love of God for humankind. 3.unselfish love of one person for another without sexual implications; brotherly love. 4.love feast (defs. 1, 2).


Noun- noun  /naʊn/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[noun]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA PronunciationGrammar
–noun 1.any member of a class of words that are formally distinguished in many languages, as in English, typically by the plural and possessive endings and that can function as the main or only elements of subjects or objects, as cat, belief, writing, Ohio, darkness. Nouns are often thought of as referring to persons, places, things, states, or qualities.

That's what noun means.

Okay, now that I have given you the definition of 'Love', 'Theos', 'Agape', 'God', and what 'is' means as well as what a 'noun' is, and the definition of "word", do you understand?

"God" is "Love".
The noun, the word, 'God', or 'Theos' is The noun, the word, 'Love', or 'Agape'.

The noun is the noun.
The word is the word.
God is Love.
Theos is Agape.

Do you understand now?