Does God grade on a curve?

[JAYPT]

Why can't I just trust the Gospel and what it says?

-CryptoLutheran

Im not sure that I follow " trust the Gospel", many have different views of the Gospel. You would have to define the Gospel.

 

[JAYPT]

Explain Romans chapter 7 then.

-CryptoLutheran

What part of it bothers you?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Almost.... Natural man can repent, we have a choice to make, we are not completely absolved of not being able to make the choice. If there was no choice to make, the would have been no reason for anyone to preach to the lost (you and me at one time). However, no one can convince us, I agree, we need to listen to the Holy Spirit. Jesus stands at the door and knocks, He doesnt push it down, why? Because we need to respond. We are then given a new heart, not of stone but of flesh.

The question is, if natural man is totally rebellious against God and absolutely not in his nature to change his direction away from sin and toward God, and because of that is totally unable to do so, what do you think has happened to enable him to even think about repenting?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Im not sure that I follow " trust the Gospel", many have different views of the Gospel. You would have to define the Gospel.

By the Gospel I mean what God has done for us and the whole world through Jesus Christ His Son, by His life, death, and resurrection. Why should I look into myself when I have the word of God outside of myself which tells me about God's grace, kindness, and work to save me, what He Himself has done for me. What am I going to find in myself that could possibly add to what God Himself has already done?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JAYPT]

The question is, if natural man is totally rebellious against God and absolutely not in his nature to change his direction away from sin and toward God, and because of that is totally unable to do so, what do you think has happened to enable him to even think about repenting?

Because the law has shown him his sin. He has to decide whether he wants to keep in it or turn to Christ for salvation.

 

[JAYPT]

By the Gospel I mean what God has done for us and the whole world through Jesus Christ His Son, by His life, death, and resurrection. Why should I look into myself when I have the word of God outside of myself which tells me about God's grace, kindness, and work to save me, what He Himself has done for me. What am I going to find in myself that could possibly add to what God Himself has already done?

-CryptoLutheran

Nothing you can do, did I say that it was of yourself other than you had a decision to make?

 

[ViaCrucis]

What part of it bothers you?

Romans 7 doesn't bother me. But it does fly against what you seem to be saying. When St. Paul writes, "the good that I want to do I don't do, and the evil I don't want to do I do", the Apostle speaks of the struggle, of the law of sin in his very bodily members at war with his conscience. The law of sin wreaking havoc, causing strife. There is no hope here for us inside of us, inside of ourselves there is only sin and death. The Apostle will go on to say, "But thanks be to God through Jesus Christ!" and "There is now no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus" because of the gifts and working of God upon us, who has given us the Spirit. For God in the riches of His grace chose us before the foundation of the world, and has saved us. The good thing He began He will continue, as we look forward in hope to even the redemption of our mortal bodies in the future resurrection.

All of this screams loudly that we can't trust our own heart, which as the Prophet Jeremiah has told us is "wicked above all else and desperately sick, who can understand it?"

So instead of looking inside of ourselves, to the dry bones of decay, we look outside of ourselves to God's good work and promises: Jesus Christ crucified and raised from the dead, who has attained for us peace with God, victory, and life everlasting in the Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Nothing you can do, did I say that it was of yourself other than you had a decision to make?

If it's up to me then it is of myself. That's how that works.

If my salvation is up to me, then I am hopelessly lost--for in myself there is nothing of merit, I am a hopeless and helpless beggar.

I give thanks to God that my salvation is not up to me, but that God in His infinite kindness has saved me in spite of myself. For He has won for me what I could never attain, and has given me all things in Christ that I might have life instead of death.

I am a dead man breathed back to life by Christ who will, in the end, even make whole these dry bones of death and share in His own glory (Philippians 3:21). World without end.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JAYPT]

Romans 7 doesn't bother me. But it does fly against what you seem to be saying. When St. Paul writes, "the good that I want to do I don't do, and the evil I don't want to do I do", the Apostle speaks of the struggle, of the law of sin in his very bodily members at war with his conscience. The law of sin wreaking havoc, causing strife. There is no hope here for us inside of us, inside of ourselves there is only sin and death. The Apostle will go on to say, "But thanks be to God through Jesus Christ!" and "There is now no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus" because of the gifts and working of God upon us, who has given us the Spirit. For God in the riches of His grace chose us before the foundation of the world, and has saved us. The good thing He began He will continue, as we look forward in hope to even the redemption of our mortal bodies in the future resurrection.

All of this screams loudly that we can't trust our own heart, which as the Prophet Jeremiah has told us is "wicked above all else and desperately sick, who can understand it?"

So instead of looking inside of ourselves, to the dry bones of decay, we look outside of ourselves to God's good work and promises: Jesus Christ crucified and raised from the dead, who has attained for us peace with God, victory, and life everlasting in the Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran

Right, this does cause strife, in the bible sin is a noun, a "thing as it were. It is not you. Its referred to as the power of sin. Its attached itself to you, it is not you. You are new, the new man has come, the old has gone. It doesnt mean sin is gone, it means that the old you has gone. Sin has no power over you, do you war with it? YES, absolutely but it is not you.

If you came to me and said" hey, my foot really hurts" and we took your sock off and there was a parasite attached to you, we wouldnt say it was your foot that was causing the pain, it wasnt your foot that was bad, it was the parasite. Sin works the same way. Did you see in Romans where Paul says we are slaves of righteousness? Do you look at yourself and your sin and say how can that be? You are! You are obedient from the heart, what we all need is physical death to be separated from sin. That is why we wont sin in heaven, because what is attached to you will no longer be attached.

 

[JAYPT]

If it's up to me then it is of myself. That's how that works.

If my salvation is up to me, then I am hopelessly lost--for in myself there is nothing of merit, I am a hopeless and helpless beggar.

I give thanks to God that my salvation is not up to me, but that God in His infinite kindness has saved me in spite of myself. For He has won for me what I could never attain, and has given me all things in Christ that I might have life instead of death.

I am a dead man breathed back to life by Christ who will, in the end, even make whole these dry bones of death and share in His own glory (Philippians 3:21). World without end.

-CryptoLutheran

Absolutely, you had a choice to make, you made it and all be thanks to God for what He has done!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Because the law has shown him his sin. He has to decide whether he wants to keep in it or turn to Christ for salvation.

We know that not everyone who has the law shown him his sin has responded positively to it. Most responses to the sharing of the gospel have been "Phooey!" Any outreach worker will tell you that.

So, what makes one person out of multitudes who take a "phooey" attitude, respond positively and want to know more about how to get saved?

 

[JAYPT]

bsolutely, you had a choice to make, you made it and all be thanks to God for what He has done!

Sorry, I forgot to add, He saved you. The best part....

 

[JAYPT]

We know that not everyone who has the law shown him his sin has responded positively to it. Most responses to the sharing of the gospel have been "Phooey!" Any outreach worker will tell you that.

So, what makes one person out of multitudes who take a "phooey" attitude, respond positively and want to know more about how to get saved?

Belief, recognition, wanting more, paying attention to the world order around us that makes us wonder how this all came to be. Many reasons for us recognizing God. For some people its grief, wondering what is after this world. Its different for all people. There is no one thing that makes all people want to discover God.

For a lot of people Oscarr, unfortunately they have to come to the end of themselves before they will turn to Christ for salvation (myself included).

 

[ViaCrucis]

Right, this does cause strife, in the bible sin is a noun, a "thing as it were. It is not you. Its referred to as the power of sin. Its attached itself to you, it is not you. You are new, the new man has come, the old has gone. It doesnt mean sin is gone, it means that the old you has gone. Sin has no power over you, do you war with it? YES, absolutely but it is not you.

Oh, it's definitely me. The old man and the new man coexist in turmoil. Unless you seem to think that the body has already been raised, transformed, and glorified. It is not. I remain undoubtedly a mortal sinner, and one day my body will cease to function, I will breathe my last breath, and all activity in my brain will fade, this body will rot away, dust to dust. But that is not the end of our story, because the day is coming when God will raise up these flesh and bones and make them new, whole, and glorified. For this mortal must put on immortality, and this corruptible must put on incorruption, and then it will be said death has been swallowed up in victory, "Where O Death is your sting? Where O Death is your victory?"

If you came to me and said" hey, my foot really hurts" and we took your sock off and there was a parasite attached to you, we wouldnt say it was your foot that was causing the pain, it wasnt your foot that was bad, it was the parasite. Sin works the same way. Did you see in Romans where Paul says we are slaves of righteousness? Do you look at yourself and your sin and say how can that be? You are! You are obedient from the heart, what we all need is physical death to be separated from sin. That is why we wont sin in heaven, because what is attached to you will no longer be attached.

The new man is a slave to God and His righteousness. The new man is perfect, because the new man is what has been newly created in Christ, and here I am clothed with the white robes of Christ's own righteousness--it is His righteousness, not my own. Which is why the Apostle declares that in our baptism we were clothed with Christ, that by our baptism we have died with Christ, been crucified with Him, died to sin, have been buried with Him, and raised up with Him to new life--His life. This is His gift to us, by the Holy Spirit, through faith. The Apostle speaks thus to remind us of who we have become and what we should desire to be while alive in this body of sin and death.

The old man and the new is the Christian conflict in this life, it is the cross we carry here and now. One day this old man will be laid to rest, literally, in the ground; and some day after that, at the time of God's own choosing, Christ the Lord shall return as judge of the living and the dead, and this body shall rise, transformed, glorified. On that day only the new man shall remain. And we shall dwell on the earth, in God's glory, forever.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Absolutely, you had a choice to make, you made it and all be thanks to God for what He has done!

Last I checked it was God who sent His only-begotten Son, not me. That was God's choice, not mine. So, yes, thanks be to God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JAYPT]

Oh, it's definitely me. The old man and the new man coexist in turmoil. Unless you seem to think that the body has already been raised, transformed, and glorified. It is not. I remain undoubtedly a mortal sinner, and one day my body will cease to function, I will breathe my last breath, and all activity in my brain will fade, this body will rot away, dust to dust. But that is not the end of our story, because the day is coming when God will raise up these flesh and bones and make them new, whole, and glorified. For this mortal must put on immortality, and this corruptible must put on incorruption, and then it will be said death has been swallowed up in victory, "Where O Death is your sting? Where O Death is your victory?"

Romans 6:4 we HAVE been buried (past tense)
Romans 6:6 our old self WAS crucified (past tense)
Roman 6:18 and having been FREED from sin, you BECAME slaves of righteouness (past tense)
1 Corinthians 6:11 but you were WASHED, but you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED (past tense)
Colossians 2:10 you have been MADE complete (past tense)


I can keep going, the new is NOW, not later, all of these verses are past tense, he didnt say "one day you will". Death comes and the power of sin loses "its sting" because it is no longer attached, it is a technicality and a completion of this body and you will get a new body a resurrection body.

The new man is a slave to God and His righteousness.

We are not slaves but heirs, seated in heavenly places. We are not God's slaves, sounds really humble but not scriptural.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Romans 6:4 we HAVE been buried (past tense)
Romans 6:6 our old self WAS crucified (past tense)
Roman 6:18 and having been FREED from sin, you BECAME slaves of righteouness (past tense)
1 Corinthians 6:11 but you were WASHED, but you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED (past tense)
Colossians 2:10 you have been MADE complete (past tense)


I can keep going, the new is NOW, not later, all of these verses are past tense, he didnt say "one day you will". Death comes and the power of sin loses "its sting" because it is no longer attached, it is a technicality and a completion of this body and you will get a new body a resurrection body.



We are not slaves but heirs, seated in heavenly places. We are not God's slaves, sounds really humble but not scriptural.

I didn't say the new man isn't now. I said the old and new coexist.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JAYPT]

Last I checked it was God who sent His only-begotten Son, not me. That was God's choice, not mine. So, yes, thanks be to God.

So if was all up to God and not to you, tell me, why is the bible around? Why Jesus? He could have lived, not died and just went to heaven, God pre-picked everyone so, what does it matter? If we had no choice, is it really love? Do you really love God when its all of Him and all of Him?

Im not sure if you missed the whosoever in John 3:16, whosoever denotes a choice.

 

[JAYPT]

I didn't say the new man isn't now. I said the old and new coexist.

-CryptoLutheran

Ok, you have admitted the new is now, so if the old man is buried and the old self was crucified, how exactly is it still living?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So if was all up to God and not to you, tell me, why is the bible around? Why Jesus? He could have lived, not died and just went to heaven, God pre-picked everyone so, what does it matter? If we had no choice, is it really love? Do you really love God when its all of Him and all of Him?

Im not sure if you missed the whosoever in John 3:16, whosoever denotes a choice.

I suspect you must be confusing me for a Calvinist, I'm not a Calvinist--I'm a Lutheran. As such I don't know that I can word it any better than how Fr. Martin himself did in the Large Catechism,

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves."

Salvation isn't about God picking and choosing who will and won't be saved; it is God's own gracious rescue of us through Jesus, who suffered and died, rose from the dead, for us. This God did out of His great love for us, by His infinite kindness and grace. It is for you, for me, and for the whole world. So that all who have faith, indeed, are saved; as the Apostle says, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek, for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, 'The righteous shall walk by faith.'" (Romans 1:16-17) so that we are indeed confident that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17), so that "whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life", the whosoever is not about my works, but about the confidence of faith--all who have faith in God's Son have life in Him. That faith which is a precious gift as St. Paul writes in Ephesians, "For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works so that no one may boast." which is, as we have already seen, is given by the word of God, namely the preaching of the Gospel.

So that here, by God's precious means of Word and Sacrament, God Himself has acted, worked, and appropriated to us Christ's perfect work. For the Spirit grants faith to us here, by which we can trust in what Christ has done.

For we have, as the Evangelist writes, been born "not of blood, or will of the flesh, nor of human will, but of God"; so that all who have received Him, as granted to us by God through faith, are children of God. Even as the Apostle St. Paul expounds upon elsewhere, such as in Romans 8,

"For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as children by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children, and if children, also heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if having suffered with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."

And a little later in the same chapter,

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."

For we have been predestined in Christ, chosen in Him, and this God having worked for us through the preaching of His precious Gospel, through here His Word and Sacraments, that we should receive faith, and all which God has accomplished for us in Christ.

Christ died for you. This is good news.

-CryptoLutheran