Does God allow abortions?

[Loyce KG]

You be the judge:

1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

and now:
New York State Assembly Passes Third Trimester Abortion Bill

1 Peter 2: 13-17 teaches that;
-we should obey laws
-obey all laws for the Lord's sake which means all laws for the will of God. Abortion is murder and that's against God's will, so no it's not permissible.

“Every person must submit to and support the authorities over him. For there can be no authority in the universe except by God’s appointment, which means that every authority that exists has been instituted by God. So to resist authority is to resist the divine order of God, which results in severe consequences. For civil authorities don’t intimidate those who are doing good, but those who are doing evil. So do what is right and you’ll never need to fear those in authority. They will commend you for your good citizenship. Those in authority are God’s servants for the good of society. But if you break the law, you have reason to be alarmed, for they are God’s agents of punishment to bring criminals to justice. Why do you think they carry weapons?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:1-4‬ ‭TPT‬‬

We submit to authorities that stand for good(in line with scripture) not evil.

 

[redleghunter]

Obeying government takes precedent over the written code in scripture.

Not when government promotes Evil.

See Daniel 3

All you are promoting here is what churches promoted in Nazi Germany.

 

[Loyce KG]

Obeying government takes precedent over the written code in scripture.

1 Timothy 2:1-3
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,[/

 

[Loyce KG]

Obeying government takes precedent over the written code in scripture.

1 Timothy 2:1-3
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,

Perhaps you might need to ask thyself; Are you more American than Christian or vice versa?
Where is your citizenship as a Christian?
If you are a citizen of heaven, then you are going to have to go back and renew the declaration of allegiance by which you became a Christian, namely, Jesus is Lord! You will have to obey God first, and if man tells you to rebel against what Gods says, remember your citizenship.

One of the many examples in the Bible is in Exodus 1. The Israelites had lived in Egypt under the rule of the Pharaohs for several centuries. They became very numerous, so the king of Egypt commanded the Hebrew midwives to kill all the boy babies born to the Israelites (verse 16). But verse 17 says, "The midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live." verse 20 adds, "So God dealt well with the midwives; and the people multiplied and grew strong. And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families.

Acts 4:19-5:28 is another one where Peter and Paul disobeyed authorities restricting them from preaching the gospel in the name of Jesus. Their response,"we must obey God rather than men."
There is a limit to our submission to authorities. This limit is dictated by scripture. If man's law stumps on God's law, we are required to disobey man rather than God.

 

[SkyWriting]

If man's law stumps on God's law, we are required to disobey man rather than God.

Right. That's not in scripture, but is a common refrain.
That idea is overturned by these passages: Post #33

If I may offer a historical story like yours, which is also strictly history:

25 As they stretched him out to flog him, Paul said to the centurion standing there, “Is it legal for you to flog a Roman citizen who hasn’t even been found guilty?”

26 When the centurion heard this, he went to the commander and reported it. “What are you going to do?” he asked. “This man is a Roman citizen.”

27 The commander went to Paul and asked, “Tell me, are you a Roman citizen?”

“Yes, I am,” he answered.

28 Then the commander said, “I had to pay a lot of money for my citizenship.”

“But I was born a citizen,” Paul replied.

29 Those who were about to interrogate him withdrew immediately. The commander himself was alarmed when he realized that he had put Paul, a Roman citizen, in chains.

Here Paul does not make appeals to man or God or justice, but to his citizenship.
I will imagine becasue he knew that God protected him through his citizenship.
I take this as an instructional passage on the power of God through government.
You don't have to agree.

 

[SkyWriting]

Acts 4:19-5:28 is another one where Peter and Paul disobeyed authorities restricting them from preaching the gospel in the name of Jesus. Their response,"we must obey God rather than men."

It does read that. But it doesn't conflict with my
stand that the Father works His will through
local government first, individuals second.

 

[dstamps]

You be the judge:

1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Since Man is finite in a Reality that appears to be unlimited from Man's perspective, we should strive to understand our Purpose. Our eventual purpose is revealed in John 15 of the Bible. Man is to be the body of Christ. It is commonsense to believe that the physical reality is a reflection of the Spiritual Reality in a sense similar to light entering a prism and exiting as many different colors. Essentially, the Spiritual Reality is Unity while the physical reality is divided as it reflects aspects of the Spiritual Reality that need to mature. Therefore, a Soul in the Spiritual Reality has Masculine and Feminine aspects and are reflected in the Physical Reality as Male and Female bodies. To simplify, I will jump past further details of this comparison.

Man, therefore, has a GOD given Purpose that is outside of self. We should then view life situations relative to our GOD given Purpose; BUT Man tends to view life situations relative to self-serving purposes. This results in many laws of Man that violate the living qualities Man needs to serve in the body of Christ. To name a few:

1. Cherish all life which belongs to GOD who is the Source. We can't love GOD and not love everything that belongs to HIM.
2. A Spirit that seeks ways to maximize our contribution to the body of Christ.
3. A Spirit that seeks ways to help our fellow Man maximize their contribution to Christ.

Unfortunately, all of Man in this Reality is infected with the self-serving nature--making it almost impossible to accomplish much of those few qualities; but GOD is not restricted by time while perfecting the body of Christ. GOD has created this Reality, though, so that when we make positive contributions to Society we are, in a small way, giving birth to and maturing eternal lifestyles. Unfortunately, as the lifestyles mature, we begin using them for self-serving purposes. The self-serving nature thrives in a divided world.

In America, we have two political parties from which we 'elect' our leaders. Political parties in any Society will automatically divide it--giving the self-serving nature fertile ground to grow; and that is just what it is doing in our Society. Politicians need voters, though, to get elected. Therefore, the Politicians appeal to the self-serving nature of the populace to get those votes. This tends to divide the populace according to the desires of their self-serving nature. Few, if any, are making all their decisions based on the needs of the body of Christ.

The abortion issue was most likely manufactured for political purposes. There is one political ideology that appears to have chosen to appeal to the more self-serving aspects of Man's nature as individuals. This doesn't mean the other political ideology doesn't have its flaws, also. Both tend to use self-serving tactics to accomplish their goals, though.

The ideal situation is that both the man and the woman enter marriage as virgins committed to the marriage serving the body of Christ according to their gifts and abilities. Where Man appears to be today, making laws to legislate that situation would probably harm the body of Christ more than our current laws. Matthew 19:3-8 One reason given to justify abortion was to prevent deaths of those who did not want to have a child conceived either through their actions or the actions of others against their will.

Consider that humankind cannot destroy any life--only the physical form that life inhabits. The life stays in the hands of GOD; but the person or persons destroying any living physical form for any reason pays a price whether they know it or not if it is not according to what is needed for the body of Christ.

 

[Loyce KG]

Right. That's not in scripture, but is a common refrain.
That idea is overturned by these passages: Post #33

If I may offer a historical story like yours, which is also strictly history:

25 As they stretched him out to flog him, Paul said to the centurion standing there, “Is it legal for you to flog a Roman citizen who hasn’t even been found guilty?”

26 When the centurion heard this, he went to the commander and reported it. “What are you going to do?” he asked. “This man is a Roman citizen.”

27 The commander went to Paul and asked, “Tell me, are you a Roman citizen?”

“Yes, I am,” he answered.

28 Then the commander said, “I had to pay a lot of money for my citizenship.”

“But I was born a citizen,” Paul replied.

29 Those who were about to interrogate him withdrew immediately. The commander himself was alarmed when he realized that he had put Paul, a Roman citizen, in chains.

Here Paul does not make appeals to man or God or justice, but to his citizenship.
I will imagine becasue he knew that God protected him through his citizenship.
I take this as an instructional passage on the power of God through government.
You don't have to agree.

Read my post again. If man says it is Legal to murder babies(man's law), we are not expected to obey such a law(which would be disobedience). Why? Because it is against God's law(which prohibits murder). So I can't quote for you a scripture that says that outrightly but we can draw conclusions. No one is advocating for Christians to go around disobeying governments but when the law of the land is against the law of God, we should always choose obedience to God!

 

[SkyWriting]

Perhaps you might need to ask thyself; Are you more American than Christian or vice versa?
Where is your citizenship as a Christian?
If you are a citizen of heaven, then you are going to have to go back and renew the declaration of allegiance by which you became a Christian, namely, Jesus is Lord!

So, I did just research this idea of "citizenship as a Christian" and
there are no priority problems. Our "citizenship" is in regards to
our new bodies off this earth. There is no conflict with local government
being top priority.

Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 3 - English Standard Version

 

[SkyWriting]

Don’t drop your quest to follow scripture, but please find the wisdom of which scriptures are contextually valid for which circumstance. God hates murder and violence, and so any law that legalizes the murder of children in the womb is not something God would ever ordain. Man on his own has decided to institute something so vile, and God is allowing it for a time so that iniquity can abound more and more upon the earth until the return of Christ.
However, you are making the assumption that just because God allows something to take place under the authority of an earthly government, that he sways and changes his mind upon what we must do in terms of what is righteous. God never changes his mind, neither changes his judgements. Murder is sin now just as it was when Cain killed Abel

You need to stop assuming that God is the author of evil.

My stand is that The Fathers will is carried out by local government decree.
See below.

Read my post again. If man says it is Legal to murder babies(man's law), we are not expected to obey such a law(which would be disobedience). Why? Because it is against God's law(which prohibits murder). So I can't quote for you a scripture that says that outrightly but we can draw conclusions. No one is advocating for Christians to go around disobeying governments but when the law of the land is against the law of God, we should always choose obedience to God!

The passages all say that obedience to local government is top priority
because local government law is the Fathers will for us.

Jesus explained this and then lived it, throughout his trial, even to death.
Thank the Lord for His death!

Matthew 26:52-54
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

John 19:10-11
So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

 

[Loyce KG]

It does read that. But it doesn't conflict with my
stand that the Father works His will through
local government first, individuals second.

The Father doesn't ALWAYS work His will through local government FIRST. He works it through His chosen people first(.
“for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”)
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

God appoints authority but they are subject to obedience or disobedience to God by choice. Hitler, idi amin where not operating by God's will. God doesn't will that innocent people be tortured and burnt, women raped etc. He may let it happen but it's not His will. The children of the devil obey him and the children of God obey God.
An example Paul quotes in 1 Corinthians 2:8, "None of the rulers of this age understood the wisdom of God; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

 

[step_by_step]

Obeying government takes precedent over the written code in scripture.

II Corinthians 11:4
You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.

No law takes precedent over God's law. His word is the last word and his law is the only law. Period.
Many will try to bend the rules and twist what the Bible says in order to fit in with their own thinking or to be politically correct. But there will never be a law that should come before God's spoken word.

That being said, there isn't even a law that says abortions must happen. No one has written down "a woman must get an abortion".

And the day the do is the day I hope Jesus returns.

 

[Loyce KG]

The passages all say that obedience to local government is top priority
because local government law is the Fathers will for us.

Jesus explained this and then lived it, throughout his trial, even to death.
Thank the Lord for His death!

Matthew 26:52-54
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

The authorities in Jesus' Time didn't even know what they were doing, for if they knew the truth, they wouldn't have crucified Jesus (1 Cor 2:8).
Obedience to God is top
priority and then government.
Study Romans 13 clearly.

 

[SkyWriting]

1 Corinthians 2:8, "None of the rulers of this age understood the wisdom of God; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

That's pretty messed up considering Jesus said the opposite below.
(Paul never met Jesus.)

II Corinthians 11:4
You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.

No law takes precedent over God's law. His word is the last word and his law is the only law. Period.

The authorities in Jesus' Time didn't even know what they were doing, for if they knew the truth, they wouldn't have crucified Jesus (1 Cor 2:8). Obedience to God is top priority and then government. Study Romans 13 clearly.

Jesus explains here that local government law is the Father's will.

Matthew 26:52-54
Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”

John 19:10-11
So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?” Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

 

[step_by_step]

Jesus explains that local law is the Father's will.

So if the our government makes it a law to kill, then you gladly will? If they make it a law to bow down to someone other than God, you will?

I cannot believe we are arguing that God would condone abortion.

 

[SkyWriting]

Read my post again. If man says it is Legal to murder babies(man's law), we are not expected to obey such a law(which would be disobedience). Why? Because it is against God's law(which prohibits murder).

Murder is limited to evil malice. Abortion is due to ignorance, at it's worst level.

 

[SkyWriting]

So if the our government makes it a law to kill, then you gladly will? If they make it a law to bow down to someone other than God, you will?

I cannot believe we are arguing that God would condone abortion.

Yup. Very hard to swallow.

Lets check it again:
1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.

Sure enough. "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution"

Local law reins supreme.

 

[SkyWriting]

So if the our government makes it a law to kill, then you gladly will? If they make it a law to bow down to someone other than God, you will?I cannot believe we are arguing that God would condone abortion.

I covered that. Abortions are agony for everybody.

 

[step_by_step]

Yup. Very hard to swallow.

Lets check it again:
1 Peter 2:13-17
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.

Sure enough. "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution"

You are wrong and you are mislead.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused to obey their king and would not bow down to the statue he made. And God saved them from the furnace because of their faith and devotion to him.

God's word says what it says and it is the highest law. To blindly follow along with what your government says when it directly contradicts the word of God is not being a Christian. Why would God have said what he said if it could just be disregarded when man lays down some other law? It's foolishness.

 

[John Bowen]

Every woman if she is honest has a moment of "Truth " before or just after the abortion where they knew its wrong . They can latter justify it in their minds with some argument out there . Thats why Jesus Christ said " Woe unto ye lawyers for you have taken away the key of knowledge " .The ability to tune into whats right or wrong in our hearts where the Creator's law are written . America's moment of truth is now over turn Rode vs Wade .