Does equating evolution with atheism prevent creationists from understanding God's Creation?

muichimotsu

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That’s the bit I don’t understand about creationists. When a book co traduces reality the book must be wrong: not the other way around.
When they presuppose that the book is inerrant/infallible, then they've already clouded sound and rational judgment in regards to what constitutes reality
 
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Aussie Pete

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I hope that all the christians will reject this post, because otherwise it would be prime example of how christianity is anti-science, anti knowledge and anti education.
"Do not love the world or anything in the world. ... Do not love the world or anything in the world. ... anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in him."

Science has become worldly. Some of the greatest scientist ever were Christians. They were careful to give God the glory. Science has been hijacked by godless atheism and is used to sow seeds of doubt and unbelief. Science has become anti Christian, not Christians become anti science. Yes, there are scientists who are Christian. How does the scientific community treat them? As if they were mentally deficient because they won't toe the PC line. How do I know? I follow the commentary against people like Professor James Tour, Stephen Meyer, David Berlinski and others who reject evolution. Not all of those men are Christians. All are subject to abuse from people who really should know better.
 
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Aussie Pete

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When they presuppose that the book is inerrant/infallible, then they've already clouded sound and rational judgment in regards to what constitutes reality
God's word is truth. Satan is the father of lies. Satan will do what ever he can to hinder people from receiving God's word. Satan has done an excellent job on you, sad to say.
 
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Strathos

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When they presuppose that the book is inerrant/infallible, then they've already clouded sound and rational judgment in regards to what constitutes reality

Neither one is wrong. Some people just don't realize that many parts of scripture aren't meant to be taken 100% literally.
 
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Subduction Zone

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"Do not love the world or anything in the world. ... Do not love the world or anything in the world. ... anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in him."

Science has become worldly. Some of the greatest scientist ever were Christians. They were careful to give God the glory. Science has been hijacked by godless atheism and is used to sow seeds of doubt and unbelief. Science has become anti Christian, not Christians become anti science. Yes, there are scientists who are Christian. How does the scientific community treat them? As if they were mentally deficient because they won't toe the PC line. How do I know? I follow the commentary against people like Professor James Tour, Stephen Meyer, David Berlinski and others who reject evolution. Not all of those men are Christians. All are subject to abuse from people who really should know better.
How has science become anti-Christian? Did it do that when it showed that the world was spherical and not flat? Or did it do that when it showed that the Earth was not fixed in place?
 
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How has science become anti-Christian? Did it do that when it showed that the world was spherical and not flat? Or did it do that when it showed that the Earth was not fixed in place?

Probably when most of the practitioners stopped being in Holy Orders and started writing in "secular" fashions that at first didn't mention god, and then ignored the concept entirely. It's an odd thing since science doesn't even study gods or their existence.
 
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muichimotsu

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Neither one is wrong. Some people just don't realize that many parts of scripture aren't meant to be taken 100% literally.
Except inerrant is definitely wrong, there are things the Bible is absolutely mistaken on, like rabbits chewing the cud or that you can breed sheep in front of striped sticks and get striped sheep. Infallible is at least moving the goalposts in an honest fashion of the "supernatural" being beyond human ken
 
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muichimotsu

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God's word is truth. Satan is the father of lies. Satan will do what ever he can to hinder people from receiving God's word. Satan has done an excellent job on you, sad to say.
Yeah, continue that script, that'll convince people and not just show that you're out of your gourd and refuse to engage rationally with anyone.

Show this "Satan" exists in any remotely testable way that isn't confirmation bias on your part and maybe we can talk: I don't deal in superstitions because I prefer to use my brain to its fullest and not just as it fits what I want the world to be so I can feel "comfortable"
 
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pitabread

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Science has been hijacked by godless atheism and is used to sow seeds of doubt and unbelief.

You do know there is tremendous irony in saying this in a thread whereby equating evolution and atheism has seemingly blinded creationists to God's Creation.

Yes, there are scientists who are Christian. How does the scientific community treat them?

Francis Collins seems to be well respected. He's an evangelical Christian.
 
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pitabread

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. However, if the genetic information was not contained in the original mongrel dogs, they could not have been selectively bred.

Since you've declined to engage in a discussion on canine genetics (though I'm not surprised), I'll just say this much:

If you accept that dogs were domesticated originally from wolves, then you have the fact that there are various novel gene variants that have arisen just in domesticated dog lineages. IOW, new genetic information. These even includes evolution of novel phenotypic traits in domesticated dogs.

Alternatively, you can believe that the original dogs were represented by one or more individual created "kinds" with those novel gene variants already created. IOW, dogs are not descended from wolves. However, the fact that gray wolves and domesticated dogs are considered the same species, that means you're effectively invoking "kinds" at the sub-species level. It also means that hybridization is not a criteria for determining which organisms are the same kind.

So I can see why you elected not to engage in a discussion re: genetics. It leads to some uncomfortable realities.
 
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Subduction Zone

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You do know there is tremendous irony in saying this in a thread whereby equating evolution and atheism has seemingly blinded creationists to God's Creation.



Francis Collins seems to be well respected. He's an evangelical Christian.
I have referred to and linked biologos, a Christian evolution website, quite a few times. I have never seen non-Christians attacking the site, probably because they do follow the scientific method, nor have I had an responses from creationists that tell me they have gone to the site.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Neither one is wrong. Some people just don't realize that many parts of scripture aren't meant to be taken 100% literally.
The problem is deciding which bits. Personally, when God says continually, Old and New Testaments, the He created everything, then I am happy to agree. Mountains clapping their hands? Symbolic - that's a no brainer.
 
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Strathos

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The problem is deciding which bits. Personally, when God says continually, Old and New Testaments, the He created everything, then I am happy to agree. Mountains clapping their hands? Symbolic - that's a no brainer.

I agree that God created everything. The issue in contention seems to be the details of how He did it.
 
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Astrophile

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I'll answer your first question now. I was taught evolution pretty much from "Origin of Species". It included trips to the Natural History Museum in London, courtesy of my Grandmother. There you could see the now discredited evolutionary progression of horses from creatures the size of a sheep to the giant carthorse. All very logical and plausible. Just wrong. The now known to be fake Haeckel drawings were also in our textbooks.

If you were living in Britain during your schooldays, you were more fortunate in your education than I was. I was taught very little about science at primary school; I think that religion was the single subject that took up the largest amount of time. I remember my parents taking me on one trip to the Natural History Museum during my primary school days, but a single trip, however interesting, was not enough for me to learn much about any aspect of biology.

I was taught biology at secondary school for one or two years, but that was mostly about basic anatomy. Evolution was hardly mentioned, although perhaps it formed a part of the O-level or A-level course. However, my secondary school library didn't even have a copy of The Origin of Species; I first read it in a copy that I borrowed from the local public library (and even that had an anti-evolutionary foreword by W.R. Thompson).

I also read about Haeckel in library books and perhaps saw his drawings of embryos, but the books were generally dismissive of his hypothesis that ontogeny repeats phylogeny. Since Haeckel died in 1919, it would be interesting to know whether you have learnt anything about embryology that has been published since his time.

Finally, it would also be interesting to know your opinions of geology and palaeontology. In particular, do you accept that sedimentary rocks have been deposited over periods of millions or billions of years, and that there is a succession of fossils from the Cambrian period to the present day that provides a valid method of correlating rocks of the same age from different parts of the world?
 
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Aussie Pete

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I agree that God created everything. The issue in contention seems to be the details of how He did it.
It does not have to be contentious. The Word explains itself. And the details are incredibly significant, if you delve into them. For example, the difference in the way God created animals and the way He created Adam are much different. And for very good reasons. Likewise the way Eve was formed has tremendous spiritual import. You might like to read "The Glorious Church" by Watchman Nee. He goes into much detail and I have been much blessed by it.
 
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Speedwell

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It does not have to be contentious. The Word explains itself. And the details are incredibly significant, if you delve into them. For example, the difference in the way God created animals and the way He created Adam are much different. And for very good reasons. Likewise the way Eve was formed has tremendous spiritual import. You might like to read "The Glorious Church" by Watchman Nee. He goes into much detail and I have been much blessed by it.
Well that certainly may explain something about your views. Watchman Nee was no doubt a devout and committed Christian but was influenced by the Plymouth Brethren and as a consequence had some pretty strange theological notions. Are you a Darbyite?
 
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Aussie Pete

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If you were living in Britain during your schooldays, you were more fortunate in your education than I was. I was taught very little about science at primary school; I think that religion was the single subject that took up the largest amount of time. I remember my parents taking me on one trip to the Natural History Museum during my primary school days, but a single trip, however interesting, was not enough for me to learn much about any aspect of biology.

I was taught biology at secondary school for one or two years, but that was mostly about basic anatomy. Evolution was hardly mentioned, although perhaps it formed a part of the O-level or A-level course. However, my secondary school library didn't even have a copy of The Origin of Species; I first read it in a copy that I borrowed from the local public library (and even that had an anti-evolutionary foreword by W.R. Thompson).

I also read about Haeckel in library books and perhaps saw his drawings of embryos, but the books were generally dismissive of his hypothesis that ontogeny repeats phylogeny. Since Haeckel died in 1919, it would be interesting to know whether you have learnt anything about embryology that has been published since his time.

Finally, it would also be interesting to know your opinions of geology and palaeontology. In particular, do you accept that sedimentary rocks have been deposited over periods of millions or billions of years, and that there is a succession of fossils from the Cambrian period to the present day that provides a valid method of correlating rocks of the same age from different parts of the world?

My father was an aggressive atheist, mostly a reaction to ill treatment by a Catholic priest at the school he attended. He was keen to teach me evolution as best he could. That included doing my homework for me one time to ensure that I was suitably educated! I went to entirely secular schools until secondary school. I went to the oldest continually operating school in England. There was religious education, one period a week, for the first term. That was it.

I agree that geology poses problems for the Young Earth proponents. I am not convinced by the dating methods evolutionists use. There are many inexplicable anomalies, including in the Grand Canyon. However, many of my questions were resolved when I came across the concept of the pre-Adamite or gap theory of creation. I believe it is correct. I won't criticise anyone who disagrees. It's not essential to salvation.

Haeckel was not above taking extremely creative licence. He used the same woodcut 3 times to "prove" that embryos were the same in the early stages. I know some Creationists are not squeaky clean in that area either.

I've read quite a lot of books from the Creationist point of view. I don't always agree with what I read. I have read Dr Walt Brown's book. He has some amazing theories but I'm not convinced by all of them. However, there is a great deal that challenges the theory of evolution that I do agree with.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Well that certainly may explain something about your views. Watchman Nee was no doubt a devout and committed Christian but was influenced by the Plymouth Brethren and as a consequence had some pretty strange theological notions. Are you a Darbyite?
I don't know what a Darbyite is. I know something of the Brethren. They rejected Watchman Nee because he chose to meet with someone who was not Brethren. Watchman Nee was influenced also by Andrew Murray, George Mueller and Jesse Penn Lewis. Not too many people are influenced by no one. What do you find strange about W. Nee's theology?
 
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Speedwell

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I don't know what a Darbyite is.
A Dispensationalist.
I know something of the Brethren. They rejected Watchman Nee because he chose to meet with someone who was not Brethren. Watchman Nee was influenced also by Andrew Murray, George Mueller and Jesse Penn Lewis. Not too many people are influenced by no one. What do you find strange about W. Nee's theology?
Mueller split off with the Open Brethren but the distinction is not much known of here in the US, nor any of the other fringe Nonconformists you refer to. Dispensationalism here is mostly associated with some of the American Fundamentalist Evangelical sects, notably the Southern Baptists.
 
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Aussie Pete

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A Dispensationalist. Mueller split off with the Open Brethren but the distinction is not much known of here in the US, nor any of the other fringe Nonconformists you refer to. Dispensationalism here is mostly associated with some of the American Fundamentalist Evangelical sects, notably the Southern Baptists.
I refuse to wear any label other than Christian. If someone can work out what label to put on me from what I say, they are welcome. I just won't wear it.
 
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