Does doctrine really matter?

[Radagast]

But why do many Arminians believe in Preserverance of the Saints?

There is a kind of Arminian OSAS that says that, if you once said the Sinner's Prayer, then you will be saved, even if you later become a murderous wife-beating atheist bank-robber.

That's such a ridiculous point of view that I struggle to understand how anyone can believe it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.

That’s a good question friend. I’ve often wondered this myself. I think it is possible that some doctrines could jeopardize our salvation. Like the doctrine of purgatory for example, perhaps those who believe in purgatory could be considered equivalent to the Galatians who weren’t fully trusting in Christ for their justification. I don’t mean to be rude or impolite friend but I also think that Calvin’s doctrines could be considered offensive to God. The implications that God would punish people for all eternity failing to meet His impossible expectations could be offensive to Him like a false accusation. I think doctrines could possibly be a danger to our salvation but I would say for certain.

 

[Albion]

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism?

No. It does matter in the sense that one of these is probably correct and one is probably incorrect. So in that sense it matters.

But I always think...whichever of these two (or other such examples) is correct, how would my faith and way of living be altered if I'd chosen the wrong one? Well, it wouldn't, would it?

God's view of me upon death might be different, depending on which theory is right, but all of us Christians have been given the same marching orders in life with the same inducements for adhering to them.

 

[Radagast]

But I always think...whichever of these two (or other such examples) is correct, how would my faith and way of living be altered if I'd chosen the wrong one? Well, it wouldn't, would it?

In some cases it certainly does. Any explicitly antinomian theology is likely to show up in way of living, for example.

 

[Albion]

In some cases it certainly does. Any explicitly antinomian theology is likely to show up in way of living, for example.

Yes, but antinomianism is way off the chart when it comes to the different theological issues that divide churches and Christians--Arminianism vs Calvinism, for instance, which was the example used in the OP.

 

[Radagast]

Yes, but antinomianism is way off the chart when it comes to the different theological issues that divide churches and Christians

I had mentioned the kind of Arminian OSAS that says that, if you once said the Sinner's Prayer, then you will be saved, even if you later become a murderous wife-beating atheist bank-robber.

That is explicitly antinomian.

 

[SPF]

Right doctrine certainly matters. It matters a lot. But of course not all doctrine is created equal. A distinction is often (and rightfully) made between core doctrine and secondary doctrine.

Examples of Core Doctrine:
1. Trinity
2. Real death and Real resurrection of Christ
3. Atonement
4. Inspiration of Scripture
5. Real return at some point and in some fashion of Christ

Examples of Secondary Doctrine:
1. Degree of Free Will
2. Ability to commit apostasy
3. Varying eschatology theories
4. Age of the universe

 

[Zao is life]

This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.

Salvation is only by the righteous life of Christ, the fact that He bore our sin in His own body on the cross, the blood He shed once and for all, and His resurrection.

Salvation depends only upon what Jesus did and whether or not we believe in Him, and what we believe about Him. Therefore salvation is contained only in the blood of Christ and the work of Jesus

- not in any isms or ologies or names or titles of anyone or any other human being. The titles, the ranks, the rituals (all those that Jesus did not ask for), the isms and ologies are merely proof that every other human aside from Christ is fallible and that we see things we read in the Bible in slightly (or some cases vastly) different ways.

Thank God, our salvation was Christ's work - 100% Christ's work, and our sanctification is likewise the work of His Spirit in us.

We can throw the isms and ologies and titles and ranks and rituals and claims to apostolic succession in the dirt-bin because they score credits of 0.000000% of nothing in terms of how people are saved.

 

[Albion]

I had mentioned the kind of Arminian OSAS that says that, if you once said the Sinner's Prayer, then you will be saved, even if you later become a murderous wife-beating atheist bank-robber.

That is explicitly antinomian.

Okay, but is it Arminianism?. Is it consistent with what Arminianism is all about? I'd say "no."

And I'd also question whether "you will be saved, even if you later become" a murderous wife-beater, etc. There is a difference between consciously saying "I've been saved, so now I'm home free and can live like a heathen" and "I've accepted the Lord and am saved, but I later fell into sin when ______."

We know that the first one of these does not square with either Arminianism or Calvinism because it describes someone who doesn't actually have the gift of Faith.

 

[eleos1954]

This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.

We are to pattern ourselves after the Lord Jesus ... the others are just labels man has given to certain "church" doctrines/teachings. The ones who accept Jesus as their Lord and savior and are becoming more like Him, being changed by Him over the course of their earthly lives ... are His church.

1st Peter 2:21
Berean Study Bible
For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His footsteps:

 

[K Watt]

This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.

Will we we confess sins if we deny that they are sins?

I think Doctrine matters. The truth will set you free.

 

[lsume]

This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.

Perhaps in the near future, Christ may visit you like a thief in the night. As to dogma, Christ knows His Church.

 

[Radagast]

Okay, but is it Arminianism?. Is it consistent with what Arminianism is all about?

Possibly not.

Personally, I think that the only consistent Arminians are the Open Theists -- and they're just wrong.

We know that the first one of these does not square with either Arminianism or Calvinism because it describes someone who doesn't actually have the gift of Faith.

There are four options that more or less make sense:

1. Faith is up to you, and you can lose it (ordinary Arminianism)

2. Faith is purely a gift of God, and genuine faith can't be lost (Calvinism)

3. Faith is purely a gift of God, but he can withdraw it (Báñezianism)

4. Faith is up to you, but you can never lose it (Arminianism + OSAS)

That last might make no sense, but I have heard people here on CF defend the idea, apparently in all seriousness.

 

[fhansen]

This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.

Jesus' purpose was to put God directly back in the center of man's life, something that the Old Covenant didn't address and didn't accomplish as it mainly served to put a bunch of rules-the Law-in the center of man's life. But man needs communion with God, first of all; "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 5:15) is the mantra of the New Covenant. So Jesus came to reconcile fallen, exiled man with his Creator, to restore the direct and intimate "knowledge of God" that was dismissed and lost by Adam at the Fall. Faith, in response to grace, is the means to this "re-connection". And while faith is the object of knowledge (we have to know what to believe in before we can believe it), some of the knowledge revealed to us may be more important or critical and some less important.

In any case faith pleases God-even if our faith may be more or less well-informed. In fact, none of us as individuals are going to have 100% perfect knowledge and beliefs. And yet I'd hazard to say that God is pleased at least by the mere fact of the faith of Mormons and JWs and perhaps even Catholics regardless of any possible lack of perfection in those beliefs. But we'd all agree that the closer we are to the full gospel truth the better off we will be. Our faith is based on knowledge, on revelation, after all; God knows that we perish for lack of it, that we need to know.

So while some of these little debates may be trivial others do have purpose and meaning, which is probably why they keep coming up, because they have to do with the nature of God, the basic nature of man (fallen or otherwise), and God's purpose and will for us.

 

[K Watt]

Possibly not.

Personally, I think that the only consistent Arminians are the Open Theists -- and they're just wrong.



There are four options that more or less make sense:

1. Faith is up to you, and you can lose it (ordinary Arminianism)

2. Faith is purely a gift of God, and genuine faith can't be lost (Calvinism)

3. Faith is purely a gift of God, but he can withdraw it (Báñezianism)

4. Faith is up to you, but you can never lose it (Arminianism + OSAS)

That last might make no sense, but I have heard people here on CF defend the idea, apparently in all seriousness.

Here's another view from the catechism of the Catholic Church:

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

 

[Radagast]

Here's another view from the catechism of the Catholic Church

The two main Catholic viewpoints, as I understand it, are Thomism (which is quite close to Calvinism, expect for that last "P") and Molinism (which I am still trying to get my head around).

The Catholic Catechism seems to be written as a compromise between those viewpoints, so it's a bit fuzzy.

 

[bling]

This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.

What you personally believe at this point in your spiritual development hopefully is not salvation significant and you continue to grow. I have changed lots of my own thinking over the years and wish I had learned earlier. The real problem is: "What are you teaching others?" Do you qualify as a false teacher? My very best teacher did not tell me anything. He would present the good and bad to all the logical alternatives and not tell you which one he personally thought was the best. If you asked him a questions he only answered you with a question (so he was no help in that respect). We would discuss among fellow students for hours and days trying to come up with the most logical alternative. We were not dependent on the teacher, but I sure learned a lot.

 

[K Watt]

The two main Catholic viewpoints, as I understand it, are Thomism (which is quite close to Calvinism, expect for that last "P") and Molinism (which I am still trying to get my head around).

The Catholic Catechism seems to be written as a compromise between those viewpoints, so it's a bit fuzzy.

The Catholic view is quite clear, but broad.

It is heretical to declare that God predestines any man to Hell. It is also heretical to declare that a man can be saved without God's grace.

Within those two extremes there is room for various opinions.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.

Scripture makes a distinction between the doctrine of God and the doctrines of men. It is only through the power of the Holy Spirit within us that gives the discernment skills necessary to recognize that distinction.
Be blessed and stay healthy!

 

[JIMINZ]

I believe Christians are more concerned about their Religion than Christ.