Does doctrine really matter?

Neostarwcc

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This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.
 

Tone

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But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

No it doesn't and I wasted many years wrestling with such...kind of stifled my early momentum, but, hey, everything happens for a reason right?



*Being Republican or Democrat doesn't matter either...I'm apolitical...
 
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JIMINZ

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This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.

I would call Doctrine the Baseline for Christians, Different Denominations should share the same Basic Doctrines which would automatically identify one as a Believer, these Doctrines should not drive brothers in Christ apart, but allow them to fellowship in Worship of God together.
 
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Sabertooth

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Foundational doctrines like the Nicene Creed and Original Sin matter. And God builds upward from there, on top of them. He doesn't always build the next level in the same sequence for each person. That is where disagreements seem to arise from, but we must remember that it is His show.
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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I'd say to some degree certain things don't matter. Like God doesn't base you going to heaven or hell if you read the NAS instead of the KJV. Or if you think women should be pastors or not. Nor does he care if you think people should only eat veggies vs meat.

On the other hand certain things do matter. Like how you are "saved". Granted its not an easy question because every group believes their view on "salvation" is right. But to me thats more important because how you "save" others could me the difference between them actually being saved or going to hell because you told them they are now saved and don't have to change.
 
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Ilikecats

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I don’t think doctrine is conditional for salvation but as you grow in Christ you should begin build upon his cornerstone with sound doctrine. The problem is that there are conflicting doctrines such as OSAS and keeping your salvation, Calvinism and Arminianism ,etc. There has to be a definite answer in those and since they usually present polarized views one must be right and one must be wrong. As I stated wrong doctrine doesn’t prevent your salvation but it may hinder your growth in Christ.
 
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Tone

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I don’t think doctrine is conditional for salvation but as you grow in Christ you should begin build upon his cornerstone with sound doctrine. The problem is that there are conflicting doctrines such as OSAS and keeping your salvation, Calvinism and Arminianism ,etc. There has to be a definite answer in those and since they usually present polarized views one must be right and one must be wrong. As I stated wrong doctrine doesn’t prevent your salvation but it may hinder your growth in Christ.


The great sifting...
 
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Basil the Great

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If current Catholic teaching is correct, that even atheists have the possibility of obtaining salvation, based upon the doctrine of "invincible ignorance", then it would appear that doctrine means far less than how we live our lives. I might add that it seems that Jesus emphasized the importance of loving God and loving our neighbor and especially the necessity to show mercy to those in need, not so much the importance of doctrine.
 
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royal priest

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This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.
Jesus prayed in John 17:3, "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
Knowledge of God is the purpose of eternal life. The better we know God, the better will be our relationship with Him. For instance, the Lord's prayer teaches us how to communicate with God because it teaches us Who God is. He is holy, He's our King, our Provider, Redeemer, etc.
Of course some doctrines are more foundational than others. Such as, the relationship of the Father, Son, and Spirit versus which mode of baptism to use. What we need to do is discern which of the multitude of doctrines are actually Biblical (truth) and study them accordingly so that we might grow in the grace and knowledge of our God. 2 Peter 3:16-18
 
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public hermit

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This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.

Doctrine matters. But it's like a road map. You need the map, but knowing the route and believing it's true isn't the same thing as actually making the journey.
 
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Neostarwcc

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Foundational doctrines like the Nicene Creed and Original Sin matter. And God builds upward from there, on top of them. He doesn't always build the next level in the same sequence for each person. That is where disagreements seem to arise from, but we must remember that it is His show.

Oh naturally. And the Trinity and belief in the Divinity of Christ, one has to accept that a hell exists in order to want to be rescued from it... etc. I'm not talking about the main doctrines that define us as believers. Even God rescued me from my anti Trinitarian Beliefs when I first came to Christ within a few years after my conversion like I said.

What I meant was doctrines like Arminianism and Calvinism. Like lets say somebody is a 3 point Calvinist and a 2 point arminianian. Is God really going to send that person to hell just because they don't completely submit to Calvinism or Arminanism? I don't think so, because God saves many sinners. It's repentance and faith in Christ that saves a person. Not their beliefs on a doctrine like Preservation of the Saints for the example. Or on Limited Grace or Unlimited Grace. One might not even have to be a Protestant to be saved for all I know. Well, it must be true because for an uncountable number of people to be in Heaven, Catholics would have had to have been saved on top of Protestants. Even if Protestants are the only denomination that believes in Sola Scriptura.

Paul said that those who believe the Gospel are saved and that's what's required for salvation. But, there's a difference between believing the Gospel and coming to Jesus with the right heart and the right motives. You have to go to Jesus with a repentant and transformed heart.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I don’t think doctrine is conditional for salvation but as you grow in Christ you should begin build upon his cornerstone with sound doctrine. The problem is that there are conflicting doctrines such as OSAS and keeping your salvation, Calvinism and Arminianism ,etc. There has to be a definite answer in those and since they usually present polarized views one must be right and one must be wrong. As I stated wrong doctrine doesn’t prevent your salvation but it may hinder your growth in Christ.

Not that I personally believe this, I'm a 5 points Calvinist but, maybe for all we know the truth is found in both Calvinism and Arminianism. Both were solid Theologies of the past 500 years or so.
 
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Neostarwcc

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If current Catholic teaching is correct, that even atheists have the possibility of obtaining salvation, based upon the doctrine of "invincible ignorance", then it would appear that doctrine means far less than how we live our lives. I might add that it seems that Jesus emphasized the importance of loving God and loving our neighbor and especially the necessity to show mercy to those in need, not so much the importance of doctrine.

No I didn't mean the basic doctrines, read my post. Like, if a Catholic believes in the Gospel, Went to Christ with the right heart and God opened up their heart so that they could believe, why wouldn't they be saved? For it's the Gospel that saves and the Gospel that shows sinners just how short we are of coming to a perfect God. There would be no way to obtain salvation on our own, we need God. Salvation is 100% an act of God and we play no part in it.
 
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Radagast

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Like lets say somebody is a 3 point Calvinist and a 2 point arminianian

You show me someone like that, and I'll show you somebody who hasn't fully thought things through (there's a lot of good people out there who haven't fully thought things through).

One of the things we've seen over the past century, though, is that theologians who try to make Arminianism logically consistent seem to wind up in Open Theism. And I think that when you wind up there, you're in negative spiritual territory.
 
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klutedavid

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This is a genuine question with genuine reasoning. I'm asking this question because I've seen Christian's across both Arminianism and Calvinism grow spiritually. I've seen people who believe partially between the two grow spiritually. I've even seen my own wife who still believes the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ despite me believing that hes present grow spiritually.

I've seen myself personally grow spiritually as a baby Christian who rejected the divinity of Christ and believed in works salvation, grow spiritually and into the Calvinist I am today. (it took about two years for God to remove these horrible beliefs from me but, he did without me ever going to Christ ever again and being born again twice)

Obviously it matters that we come to Christ with the right repentance and motives, it matters whether or not we live in sin, it matters whether or not we listen to the Bible and grow from the Bible. But does it really matter if you believe in eternal security or you dont? Or if you believe in Arminianism or Calvinism? Especially when I've personally seen Arminians grow spiritually and have seen my own spiritual growth and have seen Calvinists grow as well?

Here's another question. How can Abraham have uncountable descendants as numerous as the stars if doctrine really mattered? How could John have seen these descendants in heaven and confirm that the elect are in fact, an uncountable number? Probably billions and billions of people from only 6,000 years of history?

Either doctrine doesnt matter or I'm seriously missing something. I know Paul said that doctrine does matter but dont forget the heresies popping into his church back then and today. Many "Christians" are claiming to be such and live in sin with no conscience or care. They listen to these preachers who tell them they dont need Jesus to be saved. I'm not talking about THAT doctrine. I'm talking about Arminianism vs Calvinism here. Or Christian's that follow no denomination but the Bible sho grow spiritually each and everyday. I'm sorry but spiritual growth = Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit = salvation.
Here are the first two primary doctrines.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

Are there any more?
 
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Radagast

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for all we know the truth is found in both Calvinism and Arminianism

If you think that, I don't think you fully understand the two theologies. The essence of Arminianism is to contradict "Calvinism," and the "Five Points of Calvinism" have their origin in contradicting Arminianism.

Both were solid Theologies of the past 500 years or so.

I think you mean 400, since Arminianism began in the year 1610.
 
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Neostarwcc

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You show me someone like that, and I'll show you somebody who hasn't fully thought things through (there's a lot of good people out there who haven't fully thought things through).

One of the things we've seen over the past century, though, is that theologians who try to make Arminianism logically consistent seem to wind up in Open Theism. And I think that when you wind up there, you're in negative spiritual territory.

Actually on second thought, you're right. That was a stupid statement on my part. They could believe in one point of Calvinism though (and many do) and accept the other four points of Arminianism. I've heard of a lot of preachers preach that Preservation of The Saints is a Bibical doctrine (Maybe be really, it is it's stated by Jesus and the Apostles time and time again) but yet subscribe to the other four points of Arminianism. But I was thinking it was possible for somebody to believe in Preserverence of the Saints and also believe in Total Depravity. But, It's difficult to believe in Total Depravity and accept parts of Arminianism. Especially when you also believe that you have free will. So yeah... stupid on my part.
 
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Neostarwcc

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If you think that, I don't think you fully understand the two theologies. The essence of Arminianism is to contradict "Calvinism," and the "Five Points of Calvinism" have their origin in contradicting Arminianism.



I think you mean 400, since Arminianism began in the year 1610.

Yes, you're right they were. But why do many Arminians believe in Preserverance of the Saints? You hear it preached from Church to Church that apparently that was the only Theology that Calvinists are 100% right on. Mostly because you just cannot deny it like I said above, It's taught all throughout scripture. You have to look at scripture in the original language with an open mind to defend some of the points of Calvinism.

Yes, 400 years or so. My typo :blush:
 
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Radagast

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They could believe in one point of Calvinism though (and many do) and accept the other four points of Arminianism

My point was that the 5 points all hang together.

I've heard of a lot of preachers preach that Preservation of The Saints is a Bibical doctrine (Maybe be really, it is it's stated by Jesus and the Apostles time and time again) but yet subscribe to the other four points of Arminianism.

But how does that work? To the extent that your salvation depends on yourself, it has to be a fragile thing. One can have no guarantee of perseverance.

It does work the other way around (sort of): A Báñezian Thomist Catholic believes what are essentially the first 4 points of Calvinism and denies the last. That's logically consistent, though rather depressing, because you spend your whole life wondering if maybe God has predestined you to hell after all.

So yeah... stupid on my part.

Not really. These are difficult things to get one's head around.
 
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