Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

FreeGrace2 · Mar 22, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Jesus went to Hades BEFORE He actually died!

READ CAREFULLY (several times if necessary) BEFORE YOU RESPOND - OR YOU WILL MISS IT AGAIN! (There is a lot of Scripture in here.)

This is a time table of the last week of Jesus's life:

Now I'm giving you fair warning here - it's not likely you have ever heard this explanation any place else; but it has totally come out of comparing Bible verses to each other.

Genesis 2:7
Exodus 12
Pslam 104:29
Jeremiah 25:15-16
Jeremiah 30
Daniel 9:27
Jonah 2:2
Matthew 24:6-13
Matthew 24:22&29, Mark 13:20&24
Luke 13:32
Luke 22:43
Luke 23:45
John 12:1-3
John 12:29&31
John 18:1&6
Revelation 20:1-3

John 12:1-3 - Mary (Lazarus's sister) anoints Jesus's feet "6 days before the Passover". Jesus says to Judas: "Leave her alone, against the day of my burial she has kept this." That "time clue" is important; keep it in the back of your head!

Daniel 9:27 "confirm the covenant for a week". From the time Mary anoints Jesus's feet to the day of the crucifixion is "one week". This happens Thursday after sundown (which would have commenced Friday. This is the start of "the great tribulation".

Friday - I don't think the Scriptures tell us specifically what Jesus did Friday day. (Probably preached in the temple.)

Saturday - Sabbath.

Sunday - Triumphant entry into Jerusalem.

Monday - Preached in the temple. Jesus tells a pharisee who comes to Him to warn Him that Herod wants to kill Him. Jesus says "Tell that fox: Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." The "third day" is the commencement of Wednesday.

The word "perfected" here is kind of a weird word. It literally means "to come to the fullness of extension" and is usually used in context of conceiving children. We'd use the world "climax". So Jesus "comes to His climax" which in context of this verse he's referring to casting out devils, doing cures and preaching.

Again though, go back to Daniel 9:27. "the middle of the week" is "Messiah cut off".

Tuesday - Preaches in the temple. Leaves the temple Tuesday before sundown. Jesus and disciples are having a conversation about the temple being destroyed.

Thunder is heard (John 12:29). Jesus explains to them what that thunder is. (John 12:31) Satan has been cast out of heaven. (Revelation 20:1-3)

From here Jesus goes to Bethany to dinner at the house of Simon the leper. (Since we are after sundown - we are now into Wednesday) While He's eating an anonymous woman pours a jar of oil over His head. Again He tells the disciples: "She's done this for my burial". (Matthew 24:6-13)

This is the commencement of the "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". We know this because exactly 3 / 24 hour periods later - Jesus is dead!

This is also the commencement of the "middle of the weeK" when the Messiah is cut off.

Wednesday - That night Jesus washes the disciples feet and spends much of the rest of the night explaining to them what will happen to Him.

Thursday - They prepare for the passover Thursday morning. Eat it in the upper room Thursday night. They leave the building and go to the "garden" near a brook Cedron; (John 18:1) which is in the Mt. of Olives but is not "Gethsemane".

This is the first attempt to arrest Jesus. A small band come and ask for Jesus. He says. "I am" and they all fall over backwards. (John 18:6) This is one of 4 places in the Scripture that speak of people "falling backwards" and in all those places, they are under the condemnation of God. This should tell you something about the modern "pentecostal" practice of "slain in the spirit". All the people in Scripture who "fell before God" went face down, not backwards. I digress here - but anyways.

They go from this garden to gethsemane. A "gethsemane" is not a garden. There were multiple "gethsemane(s)" in the Mt. of Olives. a gethsemane is where an olive press is. They were located inside caves and this is where they pressed the olives for the oil that burned the lamps in the temple. During feasts when lots of people were in Jerusalem, people would stay in these caves as shelter.

Passover: (Here is where Jesus's soul goes to Sheol.)

So Jesus is in this cave and an angel comes to Him. (Luke 22:43) What angel is this? The passage in English says "....angel from heaven; strengthening him..." but the Greek actually means "display of force against". So, go back to Exodus 12. What angel passes through the land at midnight on the passover to kill the first born? (The angel of death.) So who is this angel who comes to Jesus? (It's the angel of death.) What does the angel of death do to Jesus.

Scripture explains to us that when organisms die, the "breath of life" returns to God. (Psalm 104:29) The breath of life is what makes men "living souls". (Genesis 2:7)

So the angel of death removes the breath of life from Jesus which confines His soul to Sheol. Jesus does not die though; why not? Because He has a Divine nature inseparably joined to a human nature.

This is the "shortening" of "the tribulation" because if "the tribulation is not shortened; no flesh would be saved"! (Matthew 24:22) When is "flesh saved". That has to do with the atonement!

What is "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth". That is speaking of the wrath of God. "Out of the belly of hell you heard my cry." (Jonah 2:2)

Look at Jesus's behavior from the point He leaves the temple to the night of passover. He's extremely distressed. Why? Jeremiah 30 answers that question. This passage also talks about "Jacob's trouble" which is "the great tribulation". What is "Jacob" afraid of? (vs 10) He's afraid of failing God. He's afraid of losing what he came to accomplish. "Jacob" is not eternally lost though on account of Jacob's own righteousness. God being just though, can not rightfully condemn someone who is not a sinner. This is why Jesus's own personal integrity is so important to the atonement.

Jeremiah 25 talks about "the cup of God's wrath" causes the nations to "go mad". "Jacob" is probably also afraid of going insane and that is what will happen if God does not intervene. And this is why the angel of death confines Jesus's soul to hades. Jesus is determined to compete this course of action; but He can't do so if He's an emotional mess.

Now would the Romans have crucified someone they deemed to be insane? Probably not.

Note Jesus's interactions with people from the point this angel leaves until Jesus dies. He remains morally and cognitively intact; but absolutely emotionless.

By the point of "Why have you forsaken me". "I thirst" and "It is finished" Jesus becomes more and more difficult to understand. Those who wrote the Scripture give us by interoperation from the Holy Spirit what Jesus said; but those who were present could not understand Him. The Greek denotes that His "cries" sound like the screeching of a crow. Obviously as His body breaks down; He's no longer able to produce intelligible speech.

Last thing says He bows His head and "gives up" or "sends off" His spirit. This is his human spirit, not the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost, just as the Father had already forsaken Him. Jesus dies because the Divine nature is rent from the human nature. This is what actually kills him.

His soul is released from Sheol (as well as the souls of all those He's atoned for who died on the OT side of the cross). Soul and spirt ascend to heaven to stand before the Father as "the lamb that was slain". We see this in Revelation 5. Note who's there with Him. "those who've come out of great tribulation". They are "souls" (not bodies) who "live and reign with Him 1000 years". (Revelation 6:9, Revelation 20:4)

Jesus's body rests on the Sabbath.

Rises from the dead on Sunday before dawn. Ephesians 1:18-22 tell us that Christ begins to "reign" when He rises from the dead.

Now when does Jesus ascend back to the Father? (I.E. in bodily form as a whole person) That happens 40 days later.

Are you kidding me? I don't need an extremely lengthy post to "prove" what you think Jesus did.

If the Bible says He went to Hades before He died, then there should be a single verse or passage that says so.

What you've done is go "all over the map" in your way too long post.

apparently, you don't have any proof. If you did, you would have just presented the relevant single verse or single passage that says so.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 22, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
No where does the Scripture say "paradise" is called "Abraham's bosom".

Wow. You accuse me of not reading your posts and here you go again, totally misreading mine.

When Abraham died, where did his soul go? To paradise. When Lazarus died, where did his soul go? To paradise. And, Jesus described that as "Abraham's bosom".

And I gave the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia's statement on "Abraham's bosom", which you can take or leave.

I don't care what the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says. What do the Scriptures say.

Yeah, what do they know? They're just scholars.

The only thing we know about OT believers and "paradise"; is that they had access to paradise once Jesus died.

Well, speak for yourself. Those with a more robust knowledge of Scripture all know that all the believers who died in OT times went to paradise.

But since you seem to have a different opinion, please share where their souls did go.

This is why Jesus says to the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise."

Yeah, that was Hades. Where Abraham was. And the rich man.

Again, GO BACK AND READ LUKE 17 CAREFULLY! Your not even quoting it right. The passage says nothing about where Abraham is.

I can only hope you had a typo about the chapter in Luke. The correct chapter is 16.

And while the passage doesn't label where Abraham was, why don't you educate all of us about where that was, if not paradise.

[/QUOTE]Not only are you not reading carefully what people on this forum are writing; you're not even correctly quoting Scripture![/quote]
You mean like citing Luke 17 when ch 16 is where Lazarus is?

AGAIN; READ WHAT I'D ACTUALLY WRITTEN - PLEASE!
Read carefully everything in context to understand why I quoted:
"His soul was not left in hell"
"preaching to the spirits in prison"

Do you not grasp the meaning of "not left in hell" (Hades)?

Here is the theory - Sheol / Hades has 2 parts. The "top part" is called "Abraham's bosom" the bottom part is called "hell". The theory is that once Jesus died, those in "Abraham's bosom" were released from there (i.e. "top part of hades") and went into "paradise".

It's a bad theory, for sure. I do agree that Hades has compartments, but 3, not 2. The 3rd compartment, called Tartarus, is where fallen angels are chained in darkness.

Hawkins · Mar 22, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I mentioned:
"ABRAHAM'S BOSOM"

No. The account of Lazarus and the rich man was no parable. Jesus named names. No names are found in any parable.

Jesus recounted an actual conversation between Abraham and the rich man.

It's a parable, because it's not to illustrate what Abraham's Bosom is, it is the use of it to explain something else! It is the use of simple terms such as Abraham's Bosom and Hades, both are physical in concepts of ancient Jews (from the fundamental concepts of Pharisees), to illustrate something else!

The Righterzpen · Mar 22, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you kidding me? I don't need an extremely lengthy post to "prove" what you think Jesus did.

If the Bible says He went to Hades before He died, then there should be a single verse or passage that says so.

What you've done is go "all over the map" in your way too long post.

apparently, you don't have any proof. If you did, you would have just presented the relevant single verse or single passage that says so.

How do you think they knew He was the Messiah to begin with. There wasn't just one verse of "prophecy" that said "LOOOK HERE"!

The whole flipping Old Testament is full of explanations of how Jesus is the Messiah. How does one establish doctrine? By comparing Scripture with Scripture "line upon line, precept upon precept". Isaiah 28:9-13

The Bereans searched the Scriptures. Be a Berean.

The Righterzpen · Mar 22, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
When Abraham died, where did his soul go? To paradise. When Lazarus died, where did his soul go? To paradise. And, Jesus described that as "Abraham's bosom".

Show me Scripture verse that says specifically "Abraham went to paradise upon death!"

FreeGrace2 said:
Yeah, what do they know? They're just scholars.

Well 12 apostles and Jesus Christ never went to seminary either.
Still - show me Scripture verses!

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, speak for yourself. Those with a more robust knowledge of Scripture all know that all the believers who died in OT times went to paradise.

Give me verses! I'm making an assumption that because you can not find verses that say specifically "Abraham's bosom" is the same place as "paradise"; you don't have any Scriptural evidence for your belief.

FreeGrace2 said:
Yeah, that was Hades. Where Abraham was. And the rich man.

Show me where Hades is in "the third haven"!

FreeGrace2 said:
You mean like citing Luke 17 when ch 16 is where Lazarus is?

You're correct - you caught that. I did give you the wrong chapter! Now have you actually read in Chapter 16 what was said? Tell me the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Are you going to quote it to me correctly now?

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you not grasp the meaning of "not left in hell" (Hades)?

Apparently you don't think I do - so please explain it to me.

FreeGrace2 said:
It's a bad theory, for sure. I do agree that Hades has compartments, but 3, not 2. The 3rd compartment, called Tartarus, is where fallen angels are chained in darkness.

LOL - This the theory you're espousing (and don't you even see that)? LOL. You say "Abraham's bosom" is part of Hades. Do you not? Am I misunderstanding you?

FreeGrace2 · Mar 22, 2019

Hawkins said:
It's a parable, because it's not to illustrate what Abraham's Bosom is

Of course it wasn't to "illustrate what Abraham's Bosom is". I never said it was.

But it isn't a parable. Jesus never named actual persons in any of His parables. But in the account of Lazarus, he mentioned 2 actual people by name.

it is the use of it to explain something else! It is the use of simple terms such as Abraham's Bosom and Hades, both are physical in concepts of ancient Jews (from the fundamental concepts of Pharisees), to illustrate something else!

So, what "else" was Jesus explaining?

FreeGrace2 · Mar 22, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
How do you think they knew He was the Messiah to begin with. There wasn't just one verse of "prophecy" that said "LOOOK HERE"!

The whole flipping Old Testament is full of explanations of how Jesus is the Messiah. How does one establish doctrine? By comparing Scripture with Scripture "line upon line, precept upon precept". Isaiah 28:9-13

I asked for a single verse or passage that supports your claim, and you failed to do so.

Do you have any verses that actually tell us that He "went to Hades before He died"?

The Bereans searched the Scriptures. Be a Berean.

That's exactly what I do, and have been doing for the past several decades.

That's also why I have asked for a specific verse or passage that actually says what you are claiming.

And, unlike the Berean's, you can't produce any.

Be a Berean. Prove your claim.

The Righterzpen · Mar 22, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I asked for a single verse or passage that supports your claim, and you failed to do so.

Do you have any verses that actually tell us that He "went to Hades before He died"?

"It is finished." John 19:30. There's the verse that tells you Jesus went to Hades before He died. He wouldn't declare "it is finished" if it wasn't finished.

OK, I showed you a verse, now show me a verse that says He went to hades after He died.

If those who will be cast into the lake of fire to atone for their own sin, do so as whole individuals, than how would Jesus not atone for the sin of believers as a whole individual?

FreeGrace2 said:
That's exactly what I do, and have been doing for the past several decades.

That's also why I have asked for a specific verse or passage that actually says what you are claiming.

And, unlike the Berean's, you can't produce any.

Be a Berean. Prove your claim.

OK - I produced one verse! Do you believe me now? LOL

P.S. - i'm still waiting on a verse that proves Hades is in the 3rd heaven.

Saint Steven · Mar 22, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
What anyone needs to be saved is to believe what God requires. That's found in the doctrine of salvation.

You love to complicate matters. Why?

Saint Steven · Mar 22, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Salvation isn't complicated, which is the subject that I'm addressing.

It is when you try to explain it. Zzzzzzzz….

Saint Steven · Mar 22, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible clearly speaks of how to be saved. And directly links salvation to faith.

Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

So, if the red words don't indicate "saving faith", just what do they indicate?

Is there any other kind of faith?
What differentiates one kind from another? That's what I don't get.
You say "saving faith", as opposed to what?

Saint Steven · Mar 22, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Anyone who denies the reality of "saving faith" does not understand how to be saved.

Eph 2:8 refutes your view.

I'm not denying anything.
Does that give you the right to question my salvation?

Saint Steven · Mar 22, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Anyone who denies these facts is irrational.

The Bible frequently speaks of "believe IN Christ" or "faith in Christ". Did you notice the word "in"? That demands an object.

And if you don't understand that faith requires a goal or purpose for faith, then I guess there's no use in further discussion.

I recommend you switch to decaf.

Saint Steven · Mar 22, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
So, please explain to me how ANY kind of faith doesn't need an object nor a goal or purpose. I'd love to see how such a 'faith' works.

The topic is whether a person needs doctrine to be saved.
You have gone off in a different direction.

Saint Steven · Mar 22, 2019

Jason0047 said:
This is the doctrine. If a person is not abiding in this particular doctrine, or teaching as mentioned by John in 2 John 1:9 (which includes the context I mentioned), then they are not of God.

You are the only person I know who holds that view.
Maybe you should start your own religion?

The Righterzpen · Mar 22, 2019

Jason0047 said:
This is the doctrine. If a person is not abiding in this particular doctrine, or teaching as mentioned by John in 2 John 1:9 (which includes the context I mentioned), then they are not of God.

The context of this passage is assuming someone has been in the faith a while and has been taught doctrine. If they don't continue in the fundamentals of faith; that is evidence that they never had it to begin with.

Saint Steven - your respondent here is speaking of those who have not learned anything yet.

Saint Steven said:
You are the only person I know who holds that view.
Maybe you should start your own religion?

We don't have to come to God understanding a lot. A legitimate spiritual awakening often takes place outside of our knowledge as well as outside of our awareness. This is what seems to me Steven is referring to.

"God I need You. My life is a mess. Nothing else has worked....."

Faith can certainly start on grounds that are that simple. The details get filled in later.

Saint Steven · Mar 22, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
If the Bible says He went to Hades before He died, then there should be a single verse or passage that says so.

Here you go.

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Mar 22, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Except you don't do this. No where in Scripture is Hades called Paradise.

It is one of the definitions of the word Paradise, it is what the Jews of time thought was the abode of the righteous souls in Sheol. This is easily found fact that I never added to scripture(and to the words definition), so yes I do indeed follow the process of comparing scripture with scripture and letting the word of God interpret the word of God.

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Mar 22, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Did you even read anything I wrote?

Yes I did, I read everything you wrote. And then I responded.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 22, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Here you go.

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

I believe Jesus went to Hades after He died and before resurrection....

What I'd like to ask you is WHY He went to Hades?

Does Doctrine play any role in Salvation?

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