Does Doctrine matter?

[Exegete12]

But whose doctrine?

And may I add, when will the point be mooted???

 

[mact]

Hi mact

I get crosseyed trying to read that. It is extremely hard on the eyes all together like that. I assume you mean the New Testament Kingdom of God is His Kingdom. Why? And how does that fit in with Doctrine. Church Doctrine? Personal Doctrine?

I know.... sorry about that. It is Mt 5:3-48 the Sermon on the Mount.

Do you understand what the Kindom is? I am not being sarcastic here. If you have never studied this out, it is an incredable study that will increase a persons faith in God, the continuty of His word and an amazment of the "coming of His kingdom".

This may need to be its own thread.... but what do you think the theme of Jesus' preaching was? It is interesting to look at that. It will surprise most prople that even though He talked about things like our need for salvation, God's love, the new birth the main theme was the kingdom. What the kingdom is, that it is/was coming, and the rules for this kingdom.

How this plays into doctrine, is our doctrine needs to match what God says it means to be part of the Kingdom.

R

 

[mact]

Hi mact

I get crosseyed trying to read that. It is extremely hard on the eyes all together like that. I assume you mean the New Testament Kingdom of God is His Kingdom. Why? And how does that fit in with Doctrine. Church Doctrine? Personal Doctrine?

And may I add, when will the point be mooted???

Why would it be mooted?

 

[holo]

Well the scripture ACTUALLY says this... so even if you think something different that doesn't make it change.
LIFE and DOCTRINE both must be payed close attention too.

Life is how you live your doctrine... Doctrine is based on your correct or incorrect understanding of scripture. To him who has ears let him hear... If we are humble to God's word we will understand his word.

Well, very little of my life and the life of those around me has to do with baptism, so things like that aren't too important in the grand scheme. If I must define my faith in a doctrine, it would be something like this "Jesus lives and loves me". That's my basis. The moment I stray from that doctrine, yes, I get in trouble. For example, I have a tendency to try to take control of things myself and get self-righteous.

It demands focus. And Jesus is so big that when you gaze on him, the littler stuff fades away

 

[Exegete12]

Why would it be mooted?

That's what I mean ... it won't be ... I was being facetious.

 

[ROGER459]

(Isaiah 28:13) But the word of the LORD was unto them
precept upon precept,
precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line;
here a little,
and there a little;
that
they might go,
and fall backward,
and be broken,
and snared,
and taken.

HOW NOW, can you say that DOCTRINE, "is not Important....?"

(John 10:1) Verily, verily, I [JESUS] say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Thanks, Roger459

 

[mact]

Well, very little of my life and the life of those around me has to do with baptism, so things like that aren't too important in the grand scheme. If I must define my faith in a doctrine, it would be something like this "Jesus lives and loves me". That's my basis. The moment I stray from that doctrine, yes, I get in trouble. For example, I have a tendency to try to take control of things myself and get self-righteous.

It demands focus. And Jesus is so big that when you gaze on him, the littler stuff fades away

Well Baptism may not be a day to day thing in your life, it would be part of your doctrine. Understanding God's plan of salvation is VERY important. Once a person is saved how they live based on doctrine is was keeps them "in the vine".
R

 

[ROGER459]

WATER BAPTISM, IS NOT SALVATION......!​

It is Simply "A Word Picture" of our identification with CHRIST, to His Death, Burial and Resruction! Nothing More - Nothing Less!

(1Corinthians 12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

(Romans 8:9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

(Tittus 3:5-6-7) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(Tit 3:6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
(Tit 3:7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

WATER BAPTISM, is simply a work of righteousness! Nothing more, nothing less!

Thanks, Roger459

 

[gracekeepsme]

Doctrine matters because it communicates our Savor to us in a deeper way...sure it matters as long as it helps us to know Him better.

 

[bod44]

WATER BAPTISM, IS NOT SALVATION......!​

It is Simply "A Word Picture" of our identification with CHRIST, to His Death, Burial and Resruction! Nothing More - Nothing Less!

(1Corinthians 12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

(Romans 8:9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

(Tittus 3:5-6-7) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
(Tit 3:6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
(Tit 3:7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

WATER BAPTISM, is simply a work of righteousness! Nothing more, nothing less!

Thanks, Roger459

yes, baptism is not the act of salvation. But, it is very important to be baptised, because the apostles put a very high level of importance on being baptised after salvation. its often considered a sacrament along with communion. Its not necessary for salvation, but Jesus did command it. Therefore it is a necessary part of the christian life.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[threeinone]

I know.... sorry about that. It is Mt 5:3-48 the Sermon on the Mount.

Do you understand what the Kindom is? I am not being sarcastic here. If you have never studied this out, it is an incredable study that will increase a persons faith in God, the continuty of His word and an amazment of the "coming of His kingdom".

This may need to be its own thread.... but what do you think the theme of Jesus' preaching was? It is interesting to look at that. It will surprise most prople that even though He talked about things like our need for salvation, God's love, the new birth the main theme was the kingdom. What the kingdom is, that it is/was coming, and the rules for this kingdom.

How this plays into doctrine, is our doctrine needs to match what God says it means to be part of the Kingdom.

R

I thought you were talking about some Kingdom church on earth here being His Kingdom. Sorry about the misunderstanding. I was wondering what Kingdom churon on earth was His Kingdom. I know what His Kingdom is as His Kingdom in Heaven and on earth is. I understand stuff like that. The misunderstanding of church crept in there.

 

[threeinone]

I need to know what is meant by Doctrine here. My understanding of Doctrine is Church Doctrine because I can't figure personal Doctrine since personal interpretation of the bible is frowned upon here.

In my mind, even Church Doctrine requires interpretation of the bible by church leaders because all churches differ in Doctrine and I figure Doctrine has to come from the bible. So I ask what is Doctrine? Is it interpretation by church leaders?

 

[Athanasian Creed]

I need to know what is meant by Doctrine here. My understanding of Doctrine is Church Doctrine because I can't figure personal Doctrine since personal interpretation of the bible is frowned upon here.

In my mind, even Church Doctrine requires interpretation of the bible by church leaders because all churches differ in Doctrine and I figure Doctrine has to come from the bible. So I ask what is Doctrine? Is it interpretation by church leaders?

Doctrine = a belief (or system of beliefs) accepted as authoritative.

These beliefs are hopefully based on what the word of God teaches or else it is considered heresy.

Basic doctrinal beliefs taught in the Bible/by the Church -

1) One God, eternally existing as three distinct Divine Persons - revealed as Father, Word (Son) and Holy Spirit.

2) Jesus was fully God and fully man.

3) Salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone.

4) Belief in eternal life for the saved and eternal damnation for the lost.

etc., etc., etc.

I wouldn't necessarily say "all churches differ in doctrine" because most mainstream (read: true Christian churches) churches accept the basic tenets of belief as outlined in Scripture, differing only in practice.

Any doctrines that don't originate from the word of God are man-made and therefore, "traditions of men" which is the term Jesus used of some of the things the Pharisees believed/practiced.



Ray

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Yes I do believe Baptism is required as did all the EC leaders. LOTS of "modern" church theologens have gone to the extreme to explain baptism away.
IN Him
Rick

I would agree about baptism in the sense that we do so to be obedient to Christ and the Scriptures but would strongly disagree that baptism is salvific - it is belief in Christ's finished work on the Cross that saves -

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The omission of baptized with "disbelieveth" would seem to show that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on disbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. (A.T. Robertson)


Ray

 

[SoulFly51]

I would agree about baptism in the sense that we do so to be obedient to Christ and the Scriptures but would strongly disagree that baptism is salvific - it is belief in Christ's finished work on the Cross that saves -

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The omission of baptized with "disbelieveth" would seem to show that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on disbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. (A.T. Robertson)


Ray

Why in the world would a person be baptized if they didn't first believe?

I've heard people use that argument before, and it doesn't make logical sense.

You've also failed to consider Acts 2:37-41; Acts 22:16; Rom. 6:3-4; Gal. 3:26-17; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Pet. 3:21

The Bible is very clear about baptism, and if you read any of the extra-biblical writings of the early church fathers you'll see that their view of baptism was very different from your own, and they were the ones who sat directly at the feet of the Apostles.

I know of a good book that's a quick read if you're interested in this subject ... its called "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up?" Google it.

 

[Exegete12]

(Isaiah 28:13) But the word of the LORD was unto them
precept upon precept,
precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line;
here a little,
and there a little;
that
they might go,
and fall backward,
and be broken,
and snared,
and taken.

HOW NOW, can you say that DOCTRINE, "is not Important....?"

(John 10:1) Verily, verily, I [JESUS] say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Thanks, Roger459

Yes, I agree doctrine is important, and I don't think anyone disagrees on this matter.

But what constitutes doctrine? Who is to say they have the rights over the 'correct' doctrine, when Paul said we only see through a dim glass.

There is certain doctrine that is non-negotiable, but other doctrines that may only be the words of men, hence why we have so many different denominations, based around various interpretations of doctrine.

 

[Exegete12]

Also the other vital element of sound doctrine is that of the trinity and salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.

Christian's need a sound doctrine of these things, so they can HOLD fast to their salvation.

On the NCF forum we had Bostonlass from One Body One Bread forum who converted to Islam. Now she was not given that sound doctrine of the trinity or salvation, and we (i.e. us on the NCF board) failed her.

Christians come over to the board and don't even know their scriptures, The Muslims know it more than us, and tell us so. Then the Christians start talking to us about the trinity and are explaining concepts such as modalism, which proves the point to Muslims, that we don't really know our own doctrines.

Yes, sound doctrine is vital for holding and securing our salvation.

How many of us here, really know the doctrine of the Trinity for starters?

 

[seekingpurity047]

Calvinism

 

[mact]

Well, very little of my life and the life of those around me has to do with baptism, so things like that aren't too important in the grand scheme. If I must define my faith in a doctrine, it would be something like this "Jesus lives and loves me". That's my basis. The moment I stray from that doctrine, yes, I get in trouble. For example, I have a tendency to try to take control of things myself and get self-righteous.

It demands focus. And Jesus is so big that when you gaze on him, the littler stuff fades away

I would agree about baptism in the sense that we do so to be obedient to Christ and the Scriptures but would strongly disagree that baptism is salvific - it is belief in Christ's finished work on the Cross that saves -

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The omission of baptized with "disbelieveth" would seem to show that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on disbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. (A.T. Robertson)


Ray

Mk 16:16 is proof that Baptism is required for salvation.

Let me give you an analogy.

Here are the keys to my car. If you go to the car put the keys in and drive you will reach your destination, but if you don't put the keys you will not reach your destination.
Does that mean driving is not required? No. Just that with our the first part the second is not possible.

Baptism without faith is just getting wet. Faith is requried first then God saves AT baptism.
Col 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

The rebirth Jesus spoke about happens at baptism.

You would be hard pressed to find ANY of the early church fathers that would agree with your position. In fact the reason there are quite a few letters and other writings by the ECF about baptism is because they were refuting the Gnostics about this very point.

And take a look when the NT church started, when Peter opened the doors to the Kindom. What was preached?
Act 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" (38) Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

What did Peter say later in life? Peter ties Jesus' resurection right in with baptism.
1Pe 3:20-21 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. (21) Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Please take some time and reconcider your stance on this.

IN Him

Rick

 

[mact]

Why in the world would a person be baptized if they didn't first believe?

I've heard people use that argument before, and it doesn't make logical sense.

You've also failed to consider Acts 2:37-41; Acts 22:16; Rom. 6:3-4; Gal. 3:26-17; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Pet. 3:21

The Bible is very clear about baptism, and if you read any of the extra-biblical writings of the early church fathers you'll see that their view of baptism was very different from your own, and they were the ones who sat directly at the feet of the Apostles.

I know of a good book that's a quick read if you're interested in this subject ... its called "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up?" Google it.

AMEN to that ..... I think the best book outside the Bible I have ever read.... welll maybe not the best but one of the most life changing. I have 10 copies sitting on my shelf. If anyone wants a copy, and can't afford it let me know I will send one to you..
Rick