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Does Doctrine matter?

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"This scripture" ? I haven't read many of your posts but in the last few , you have written something like that in two of them and didn't present a passage in either one - at least no passage for "this scripture" ..
Sorry. This was the scripture in the first post that started this all.
1Ti 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. NASB

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. KJV

Take heed vnto thy selfe, and vnto the doctrine: continue in them: for in doing this, thou shalt both saue thy selfe, and them that heare thee. KJ 1611
 
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"This scripture" ? I haven't read many of your posts but in the last few , you have written something like that in two of them and didn't present a passage in either one - at least no passage for "this scripture" ..

Which verse are you referring to?
Sorry
1Ti 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. NASB

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. KJV

Take heed vnto thy selfe, and vnto the doctrine: continue in them: for in doing this, thou shalt both saue thy selfe, and them that heare thee. KJ 1611
 
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distanceing itself from its hebrew roots is what gave birth to these false doctrines.

You may not be *water* baptized but have been baptized into the Spirit by the Lord . *That* is the one baptism . *Five* times , the Lord is quoted in the Scriptures as saying that John baptized in water but He ( Jesus ) would baptize in the Spirit . If there was , in fact , one baptism , that baptism would be the one that Jesus would perform .

So Peter was incorrect too?
1Pet 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

And Philip
Act 8:35-38
(35) Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
(36) As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
(37) [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
(38) And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

H2O and Spirit baptism happen at the same time. but are ONE.
 
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stone

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If I understand what you are saying... I agree... can you be clearer?
Thanks
Rick

nothing in scripture contradicts, if a person sees a contradiction then they should take the opportunity to search for the truth.

My being messianic does not allow for me to teach anything in here from my pov.
 
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mont974x4

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So Peter was incorrect too?
1Pet 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

And Philip
Act 8:35-38
(35) Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
(36) As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
(37) [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
(38) And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

H2O and Spirit baptism happen at the same time. but are ONE.


Water basptism has no impact on salvation. Should we be baptized? Absolutely but it is not a necessary act for salvation.

The eunuch beleived and was saved, so he then was baptised.
 
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nothing in scripture contradicts, if a person sees a contradiction then they should take the opportunity to search for the truth.

My being messianic does not allow for me to teach anything in here from my pov.

Water basptism has no impact on salvation. Should we be baptized? Absolutely but it is not a necessary act for salvation.

The eunuch beleived and was saved, so he then was baptised.

So are you saying when Peter said "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—" he was wrong.... or you don't understand him?
Rick
 
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eRev

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IMO it all comes down to one word, love. I had the honor of officiating a wedding up in Phoenix this past Saturday. I was also blessed to host some of my friends who flew in from New York. We had some awesome theological discussions. In the past the three of us have preached at each other's churches and done various ministry out and about. We do not believe the same about many things, but one thing (besides the Xp event) we agree on is this - Nothing matters unless love is in the mix.

"As the Father loved me I also have loved you; abide in my love. ... These things I command you that you love one another."

Peace in Xp
 
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holo

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Sorry. This was the scripture in the first post that started this all.
1Ti 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you. NASB

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. KJV

Take heed vnto thy selfe, and vnto the doctrine: continue in them: for in doing this, thou shalt both saue thy selfe, and them that heare thee. KJ 1611
Ah, but he's not talking about baptism at all in the context. It seems it's more about people who "forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."

IMO, that sounds like catholics and seventh day adventists, but that's just me :p
 
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holo

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If you are calling God's Spirit a "She" then it is NOT GOD'S Spirit.... so it may need to be expercised.
r
Well, is the Spirit of God a man? Does it even have a gender?

It's not that I have some deep-founded serious doctrine or opinion on the gender of the Holy Spirit (though I do find it rewarding to stop thinking of it as a male from time to time, but rather female, with all the good qualities femininity brings - like motherly love and care). But your reply really says a lot. You look past what I say about love and peace and the good stuff, and is so disturbed by me calling the Spirit a she that you go so far as to suggest I need exorcism.

Do you realize what you're actually saying? I've been accused of "hating Jesus" before, but this would top that, hadn't it been for your saying that I "MAY need to..."

But this is typical of christianity, and particularly christianity that is obsessed with doctrine; no love, no peace, no joy, no fruit will be good enough if the doctrine doesn't fit yours 100%.
 
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Ah, but he's not talking about baptism at all in the context. It seems it's more about people who "forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."

IMO, that sounds like catholics and seventh day adventists, but that's just me :p

Here is context:
1Ti 4:1-16
(1) But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
(2) by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
(3) men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
(4) For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
(5) for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
(6) In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.
(7) But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;
(8) for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
(9) It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.
(10) For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
(11) Prescribe and teach these things.
(12) Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
(13) Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
(14) Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
(15) Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
(16) Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

1Ti 5:1-25
(1) Do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father, to the younger men as brothers,
(2) the older women as mothers, and the younger women as sisters, in all purity.
(3) Honor widows who are widows indeed;
(4) but if any widow has children or grandchildren, they must first learn to practice piety in regard to their own family and to make some return to their parents; for this is acceptable in the sight of God.
(5) Now she who is a widow indeed and who has been left alone, has fixed her hope on God and continues in entreaties and prayers night and day.
(6) But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.
(7) Prescribe these things as well, so that they may be above reproach.
(8) But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
(9) A widow is to be put on the list only if she is not less than sixty years old, having been the wife of one man,
(10) having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.
(11) But refuse to put younger widows on the list, for when they feel sensual desires in disregard of Christ, they want to get married,
(12) thus incurring condemnation, because they have set aside their previous pledge.
(13) At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention.
(14) Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach;
(15) for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
(16) If any woman who is a believer has dependent widows, she must assist them and the church must not be burdened, so that it may assist those who are widows indeed.
(17) The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
(18) For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."
(19) Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
(20) Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
(21) I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
(22) Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
(23) No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
(24) The sins of some men are quite evident, going before them to judgment; for others, their sins follow after.
(25) Likewise also, deeds that are good are quite evident, and those which are otherwise cannot be concealed.


He cover A LOT of "doctrine".
r
 
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Ah, but he's not talking about baptism at all in the context. It seems it's more about people who "forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth."

IMO, that sounds like catholics and seventh day adventists, but that's just me :p

Well, is the Spirit of God a man? Does it even have a gender?

It's not that I have some deep-founded serious doctrine or opinion on the gender of the Holy Spirit (though I do find it rewarding to stop thinking of it as a male from time to time, but rather female, with all the good qualities femininity brings - like motherly love and care). But your reply really says a lot. You look past what I say about love and peace and the good stuff, and is so disturbed by me calling the Spirit a she that you go so far as to suggest I need exorcism.

Do you realize what you're actually saying? I've been accused of "hating Jesus" before, but this would top that, hadn't it been for your saying that I "MAY need to..."

But this is typical of christianity, and particularly christianity that is obsessed with doctrine; no love, no peace, no joy, no fruit will be good enough if the doctrine doesn't fit yours 100%.

I am sorry. That was sarcasm as I thought your comment about God's Spirit being a she. If God is He then His Spririt is HE.

I am only obsessed with doctrine as God says IT MATTERS if I or the people I teach will be saved or not.
In Him
R
 
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holo

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He cover A LOT of "doctrine".
r
He does, but as far as I can see he doesn't mention neither baptism nor the trinity. Would it then be safe to assume that those aren't that important?

I am sorry. That was sarcasm as I thought your comment about God's Spirit being a she. If God is He then His Spririt is HE.

I am only obsessed with doctrine as God says IT MATTERS if I or the people I teach will be saved or not.
In Him
R
I don't think people will go unsaved even if you do teach that the Spirit is female. In fact, perhaps your message would sound more interesting to some of the wiccan teens? :)

The thing is, being correct about stuff like the trinity doesn't save anyone, and it doesn't throw anyone out of the kingdom either. I agree that some is correct, some is wrong, and that it does have implications. But the implications are mostly there only because we're so darn focused on these doctrines to begin with!

Just look at the threads in here! I myself am more busy discussing doctrine than actually being a true and real and productive believer. Sure, it's interesting, but it soon turns into useless bickering.

I think we can afford to be a lot more open when it comes to doctrine. I've seen it time and again - people who are accepted in spite of their faulty doctrine, will turn to a better doctrine by themselves, with time.
 
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He does, but as far as I can see he doesn't mention neither baptism nor the trinity. Would it then be safe to assume that those aren't that important?

I don't think people will go unsaved even if you do teach that the Spirit is female. In fact, perhaps your message would sound more interesting to some of the wiccan teens? :)

The thing is, being correct about stuff like the trinity doesn't save anyone, and it doesn't throw anyone out of the kingdom either. I agree that some is correct, some is wrong, and that it does have implications. But the implications are mostly there only because we're so darn focused on these doctrines to begin with!

Just look at the threads in here! I myself am more busy discussing doctrine than actually being a true and real and productive believer. Sure, it's interesting, but it soon turns into useless bickering.

I think we can afford to be a lot more open when it comes to doctrine. I've seen it time and again - people who are accepted in spite of their faulty doctrine, will turn to a better doctrine by themselves, with time.

I think at this point I will not be responding to your posts. It is clear you don't have a respect for God's word nor it would appear for God. This scripture is clear Watch your LIFE and DOCTINE.... IF... you do you will save both yourself and your hearer......
Water it down however you want.... God will deal with you.
Heb 10:31
(31) It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

R
 
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holo

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I think at this point I will not be responding to your posts. It is clear you don't have a respect for God's word nor it would appear for God. This scripture is clear Watch your LIFE and DOCTINE.... IF... you do you will save both yourself and your hearer......
Water it down however you want.... God will deal with you.
Heb 10:31
(31) It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

R
Excuse me? I don't respect God's word because I don't agree with you that it's not the doctrines about baptism and trinity that are essential?

And suggesting that I will "fall into the hands of the living God" for thinking differently than you?

For crying out loud...
 
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rosiecotton

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I think at this point I will not be responding to your posts. It is clear you don't have a respect for God's word nor it would appear for God. This scripture is clear Watch your LIFE and DOCTINE.... IF... you do you will save both yourself and your hearer......
Water it down however you want.... God will deal with you.
Heb 10:31
(31) It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

R

So, is 'your' doctrine the only true doctrine? Exactly what do you mean by doctrine? Do we have to have every little thing correct in order to be saved? Do we have to believe exactly right on things like baptism, tongues, the trinity, the end times, etc etc in order to be saved?
I think I stated this in an earlier post...but the word doctrine anymore leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yes, I know we need to search for the truth and correct teaching. But NO one church and NO person is 100% correct in all their beliefs and teachings. No one is infallible.
I attend a church that is part of the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ and 'doctrine' has become such a huge issue in our church. There are some people who think if anyone disagrees with one little thing the church teaches they need to have their mind changed! These people are so set on 'correct doctrine', but there is no love at all in the way they go about it, and they have been very divisive in the church, causing a few families to leave. We even had one guy state that he had been here longer than anyone else and no one was going to come in and change things. He acts like it's 'his' church instead of God's.
Ok, sorry got off on a tangent.
As for baptism, I agree it's something that every Christian should do. But I do not believe it's essential for salvation (even though our church teaches that). I have a dear friend who is a minister that was baptized as a baby. Now according to our church, that is not a real baptism, so he wouldn't be saved. But, this man is the most godly man I know! I have seen him use the spiritual gifts God gave him. He is so filled with the Holy Spirit and loves Christ and people with his whole heart. No one can tell me he isn't saved.
What about people who give their lives to Christ, but for some reason aren't baptized, or wait awhile to get baptized. I've talked with a friend from church who says he knows he was saved before he was baptized. This is a guy who was an alcoholic and lived a deplorable life before he was saved. God totally turned his life around, and started that even before he was baptized. Are you telling me that since someone isn't saved before baptism that this man on his own power changed his life and went to church, read the Bible, lived his life for God...even though he hadn't been baptized and so, in your eyes, wasn't saved yet? (did that make sense?) Can someone do that without having the Spirit in them?
As for holo, I don't know him personally, and I can bet you don't either. Who are we to question his salvation? Who are we to question his relationship with God? You have no idea what his relationship with God is like. Just because someone doesn't totally agree with you on something doesn't mean they aren't saved.
I hope this doesn't come across as harsh, because it's not written that way. I just get tired of people questioning other peoples salvation because their 'doctrine' may be different. I've seen people who believe they have all the correct doctrine, but yet sure don't live or love as Christ would have them.
 
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