Does Doctrine matter?

[holo]

How did you receive God's spirit and how do you know that you did?

I seeked the Lord, I gave up, I opened myself to him. I know it worked because I was transformed, not only that moment, but continously

Also, please address the Col 2 scripture that I posted that draws the connection between circumsision and baptism.

Well, he refers to people who've been physically baptised, it seems. I haven't. Yet I know I'm dead and buried and raised with Christ, because the old has passed away and I'm a new creature. It's a miracle.

The story of Naaman was recorded to teach us about God and the coming of Jesus.

Just believing does not give you the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Sure, and the story of Naaman reflects one of the extremely varied methods God uses to reach people. A harlot there, a donkey there, a dream there, even the occasional writing on the wall. It's brilliant.

I know I have the Spirit in me because I can enjoy her (ghasp! ) fruits; love, joy, peace and so forth.

 

[holo]

Hi Holo, yes I think you should hold a doctrine on the trinity, and that it be a correct doctrine.

This is how Muslims win over Christians to their faith, because no one really understands what is one of the most defining doctrines of the Christian faith.

When Muslims do 'dawah' with us (i.e. their evangelizing term), their first point of reference is to discredit the trinity, and without the correct doctrine of the trinity we can lose faith in God's Word, and then they try and discredit our Bible (not to mention with the help of the Jesus Seminar and other heretical writers).

So doctrines about baptism, Calvinism, etc to me are not much of an importance, when someone is challenging the very foundational doctrine of the Christian faith ... the TRINITY.

If someone converts to islam because muslims mess with the concept of trinity, surely they were in trouble to begin with

I don't base my faith on the trinity, only on Jesus. I don't base it on the bible either, or the idea that the bible is inerrant or something like that. That's not the reason for my faith. The reason is the miracles I've experienced.

I have no idea how the trinity works (I used to, having a degree in theology and all, but I stopped caring). People can't attack my doctrine on the trinity because I don't have any, and even if I did, I wouldn't emphasize it too much.

 

[jcriches]

i think its very importan to get it right there is double judgement for teachers of the word of GOD

 

[New_Wineskin]

Address this scripture then. He clearly says that circumsision is not saving and what brings us into contact with the scracrifice of Jesus is baptism. Faith in God is what raises us to a new life out of baptism.
Look at EVER conversion in the book of Acts baptism is part of it. According to acts 2:38 it is the point that our sins are forgiven and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Him
Rick

The passages that "clearly says that circumcism is not saving" explains why water baptism is not saving . The same exact reasons that people push water baptism are those presented by those who pushed circumcism . As such , Paul's argument concerning circumcism is adequate concerning water baptism .

 

[New_Wineskin]

believe what? That we should have a ready answer? or that we should know doctrine?

Believe the quote that I gave in that post . I will shorten it by another sentence . That may have been the reason for the confusion .

We should be able to logically and Biblically answer why we believe what we believe.

If you believed this , you would have a biblical answer why *we* *should* be able to biblically answer why *we* believe what *we* believe .

 

[mact]

Salvation and baptism of the Holy Ghost are by faith and faith alone. But, we are commanded to be baptised and it is an outward show of what God has already done through faith, a way of testimony.

Show this biblically. The Bible says that there is "ONE baptism" clearly water baptisim was the only one that was practiced. Read acts 2:38 and tell me how Peter got it wrong.

I believe that you can get it along with salvation, you may get it separately, whatever, bottom line is, be filled with the spirit. And we should be seeking a fresh anointing of the spirit daily. It is an ongoing experience.

Well, what does the Bible say? When did Paul in Acts 19 say that people receive the Spirit? His question makes that VERY clear.

Would you agree that the "in-dwelling" and the "comming on" of the Spirit are two different things?

R

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Interesting that you say this "I'm not interested in "extra-biblical" writings if these writings are contrary to the teaching of God's word!" but then quote people who explain away clear scripture.

Are you talking about quoting NT commentators, Greek scholars??
Unless you can refute them (how good is your Greek??), i'd suggest you not make blanket statements about them supposedly "explain away clear scripture."

Again, the word of God does NOT teach baptismal regeneration!



Ray

 

[mact]

I know I have the Spirit in me because I can enjoy her (ghasp! ) fruits; love, joy, peace and so forth.

Well that should be proof enough it is not God's spirit you are speaking of. Maybe you need an exorcism.
R

 

[christianmomof3]

Does Doctrine matter?


Does it matter what a church teaches? ...
Would the opposite be true too??? If you are teaching the wrong thing, those you teach and yourself will not have ensured salvation?

What is more important? Doctrine, or God? The Bible, or the Truth?
Many will say that they are the same, but even the Bible itself says that it can be mere dead letters if not taken in properly.
What is most important is the living God Himself.
It is good to have the proper doctrines, but if we have the knowledge of them without the life of God, it does not matter anyway.
If we focus more on the doctrines than on Christ, then it is dead letters.
We must put Christ first in our lives and our focus should be on gaining more of His life, growing more in His life, being transformed by Him into His image and sharing Him and His life with others. That is what should come first. Christ is everything!

 

[mact]

Are you talking about quoting NT commentators, Greek scholars??
Unless you can refute them (how good is your Greek??), i'd suggest you not make blanket statements about them supposedly "explain away clear scripture."

Again, the word of God does NOT teach baptismal regeneration!



Ray

Well I will take your "Greek Scholars" and raise you guys that were taught by the writers of the Bible that didn't need any Greek lessons being it was their first language. 2000 year old text from the early church leaders. They were in agreement on the subject of baptism. They saw it as the point of salvation and that it was a regeneration. Interesting that "new_wine" uses the word regeneration as the Gnostics said that people were not regenerated at baptism and the early church refuted this point with them.

One of two things you will have to do. Accept the modern teaching of the "restoration movement" group and say that the 1st and 2nd century churches didn't understand God's word as well as these people do or accept that early church fathers may have been right and re-examine what you have been taught.

Rick

 

[mact]

Are you talking about quoting NT commentators, Greek scholars??
Unless you can refute them (how good is your Greek??), i'd suggest you not make blanket statements about them supposedly "explain away clear scripture."

Again, the word of God does NOT teach baptismal regeneration!



Ray

What is more important? Doctrine, or God? The Bible, or the Truth?
Many will say that they are the same, but even the Bible itself says that it can be mere dead letters if not taken in properly.
What is most important is the living God Himself.
It is good to have the proper doctrines, but if we have the knowledge of them without the life of God, it does not matter anyway.
If we focus more on the doctrines than on Christ, then it is dead letters.
We must put Christ first in our lives and our focus should be on gaining more of His life, growing more in His life, being transformed by Him into His image and sharing Him and His life with others. That is what should come first. Christ is everything!

I agree... but according to this scripture GOD sees them (life and doctrine) as equally important and without BOTH we and our hearers will NOT be saved.
In Him
Rick

 

[New_Wineskin]

I agree... but according to this scripture GOD sees them (life and doctrine) as equally important and without BOTH we and our hearers will NOT be saved.
In Him
Rick

"This scripture" ? I haven't read many of your posts but in the last few , you have written something like that in two of them and didn't present a passage in either one - at least no passage for "this scripture" ..

 

[christianmomof3]

I agree... but according to this scripture GOD sees them (life and doctrine) as equally important and without BOTH we and our hearers will NOT be saved.
In Him
Rick

Which verse are you referring to?

 

[New_Wineskin]

Well, I know I am born again and that I've got the Spirit in me and around me, and I haven't been baptized. Except as a tiny baby, but you probably agree that doesn't count.

I'm not so sure what difference baptism would make, apart from satisfying my conscience if my conscience told me I needed to.

I'm very much open to this question, but as for now I'm mostly inclined to see baptism as an early tradition sort of like circumcision. I don't think I can do anything physical ("magical") to change how God views me.

You may not be *water* baptized but have been baptized into the Spirit by the Lord . *That* is the one baptism . *Five* times , the Lord is quoted in the Scriptures as saying that John baptized in water but He ( Jesus ) would baptize in the Spirit . If there was , in fact , one baptism , that baptism would be the one that Jesus would perform .

 

[stone]

distanceing itself from its hebrew roots is what gave birth to these false doctrines.

 

[holo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bod44 View Post
I know I have the Spirit in me because I can enjoy her (ghasp! ) fruits; love, joy, peace and so forth.

Well that should be proof enough it is not God's spirit you are speaking of. Maybe you need an exorcism.
R

Well that should be proof enough it is not God's spirit you are speaking of. Maybe you need an exorcism.
R

I don't know why my post was quoted as being written by bod44, but anyway.

What do you mean I need an exorcism?

 

[holo]

distanceing itself from its hebrew roots is what gave birth to these false doctrines.

Which false doctrines are you referring to?

 

[stone]

there are so many, i learn of false doctrines on a nearly daily basis.

since i'm not in a debate section i'll just save my comments for another time.

but i think i can say that the torah is the fountation for all truth and without it, you get false doctrines.

 

[bod44]

Well that should be proof enough it is not God's spirit you are speaking of. Maybe you need an exorcism.
R

i never said that! weird.

 

[Asinner]

Does it matter what a church teaches? I SAY YES.

Orthodox means "correct teaching". I answer yes.