Does Doctrine matter?

[holo]

Christians come over to the board and don't even know their scriptures, The Muslims know it more than us, and tell us so. Then the Christians start talking to us about the trinity and are explaining concepts such as modalism, which proves the point to Muslims, that we don't really know our own doctrines.

Perhaps it's true that christians should know the scriptures better. But don't forget that all muslims have, are scriptures and interpretations and culture. They don't have Jesus, they don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't have the stuff which actually makes us christians, which makes us children of God. It's like comparing myself to Bob Dylan's old friends just because I read a book about him

How many of us here, really know the doctrine of the Trinity for starters?

I probably know a lot about different doctrines on the trinity, but I don't have one myself. Should I?

 

[holo]

Mk 16:16 is proof that Baptism is required for salvation.

Let me give you an analogy.

Here are the keys to my car. If you go to the car put the keys in and drive you will reach your destination, but if you don't put the keys you will not reach your destination.
Does that mean driving is not required? No. Just that with our the first part the second is not possible.

Baptism without faith is just getting wet. Faith is requried first then God saves AT baptism.
Col 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

The rebirth Jesus spoke about happens at baptism.

You would be hard pressed to find ANY of the early church fathers that would agree with your position. In fact the reason there are quite a few letters and other writings by the ECF about baptism is because they were refuting the Gnostics about this very point.

And take a look when the NT church started, when Peter opened the doors to the Kindom. What was preached?
Act 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" (38) Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

What did Peter say later in life? Peter ties Jesus' resurection right in with baptism.
1Pe 3:20-21 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. (21) Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Please take some time and reconcider your stance on this.

IN Him

Rick

Well, I know I am born again and that I've got the Spirit in me and around me, and I haven't been baptized. Except as a tiny baby, but you probably agree that doesn't count.

I'm not so sure what difference baptism would make, apart from satisfying my conscience if my conscience told me I needed to.

I'm very much open to this question, but as for now I'm mostly inclined to see baptism as an early tradition sort of like circumcision. I don't think I can do anything physical ("magical") to change how God views me.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Well, I know I am born again and that I've got the Spirit in me and around me, and I haven't been baptized. Except as a tiny baby, but you probably agree that doesn't count.

I'm not so sure what difference baptism would make, apart from satisfying my conscience if my conscience told me I needed to.

I'm very much open to this question, but as for now I'm mostly inclined to see baptism as an early tradition sort of like circumcision. I don't think I can do anything physical ("magical") to change how God views me.

Since water baptism is a Jewish ritual , Paul would not say that it is necessary for salation - and , thus , not necessary at all . You can always use that forced infant ritual to shut people up . Or , you can stand outside in the rain and allow the Lord to water baptize you . That should satisfy those "mutilators of the flesh" , as Paul refers to such people .

 

[New_Wineskin]

Perhaps it's true that christians should know the scriptures better. But don't forget that all muslims have, are scriptures and interpretations and culture. They don't have Jesus, they don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't have the stuff which actually makes us christians, which makes us children of God. It's like comparing myself to Bob Dylan's old friends just because I read a book about him

Paul urges people to walk by the Spirit and *not* the written code . Yet , those you force the Scriptures at people demand that one disobey the Scriptures by their forcing .

I probably know a lot about different doctrines on the trinity, but I don't have one myself. Should I?

Nope . If so , why stop at three ? Aren't their *seven* spirits of God as the Scriptures say ?

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Why in the world would a person be baptized if they didn't first believe?

I've heard people use that argument before, and it doesn't make logical sense.

You've also failed to consider Acts 2:37-41; Acts 22:16; Rom. 6:3-4; Gal. 3:26-17; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Pet. 3:21

The Bible is very clear about baptism, and if you read any of the extra-biblical writings of the early church fathers you'll see that their view of baptism was very different from your own, and they were the ones who sat directly at the feet of the Apostles.

I know of a good book that's a quick read if you're interested in this subject ... its called "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up?" Google it.

I'm not interested in "extra-biblical" writings if these writings are contrary to the teaching of God's word!

The Bible does not teach baptismal regeneration, that one's sins are forgiven by being baptised. Baptism is an outward sign of inward grace. It is not the means by which one is saved - Mark 16:16 says that belief (or the lack thereof) is what saves (or damns)

As to your verses, let's look at a few of them for clarification:

Acts 2:38 -

For the remission of sins. Not merely the sin of crucifying the Messiah, but of all sins. There is nothing in baptism itself that can wash away sin. That can be done only by the pardoning mercy of God through the atonement of Christ. But baptism is expressive of a willingness to be pardoned in that way; and a solemn declaration of our conviction that there is no other way of remission. He who comes to be baptized, comes with a professed conviction that he is a sinner, that there is no other way of mercy but in the gospel, and with a professed willingness to comply with the terms of salvation, and receive it as it is offered through Jesus Christ. (Barnes)

Acts 22:16

And wash away thy sins. Receive baptism, as an act expressive of the washing away of sins. It cannot be intended that the external rite of baptism was sufficient to make the soul pure, but that it was an ordinance divinely appointed as expressive of the washing away of sins, or of purifying the heart. Comp. Heb 10:22. Sinners are represented in the Scriptures as defiled or polluted by sin. To wash away the sins denotes the purifying of the soul from this polluted influence, 1Co 6:11; Re 1:5; 7:14; Isa 1:16; Ps 51:2,7. (Barnes)

Rom. 6: 3,4

Is an analogy - just as Christ died and was raised, so we, in baptism,"... are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life"

Romans 6:10 (KJV) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

"The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin (verse Ro 6:1), forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer)." (A.T. Robertson)

Gal. 3:26, 27

What the apostle had asserted in the foregoing verse, he proves in this; namely, that all believers are the children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus, because they are baptized into Christ and have put on Christ;

Col. 2:12


One purpose of baptism is to symbolise the death and burial of the old man, and that by the mighty power of God alone, whose power we lay hold on by faith, in the death and resurrection of Christ; we do not need an external sign to the extent which our fathers had, seeing that our baptism is a most effectual pledge and witness, of that inward restoring and renewing. (Geneva)

Faith in God's mighty operation in raising again Jesus, is saving faith (Ro 4:24; 10:9); and it is wrought in the soul by His same "mighty working" whereby He "raised Jesus from the dead" (Eph 1:19-20). (J-F-B)

1 Pet. 3:21

The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite--that is, baptism administered in connexion with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God--now saves us.

It may be said to save us, not as the meritorious cause, but as the indispensable condition of salvation. No man can be saved without that regenerated and purified heart of which baptism is the appropriate symbol, and when it would be proper to administer that ordinance. The apostle cannot have meant that water saves us in the same way in which it saved Noah, for that cannot be true. It is neither the same in quantity, nor is it applied in the same way, nor is it efficacious in the same manner. It is indeed connected with our salvation in its own proper way, as an emblem of that purifying of the heart by which we are saved. (Barnes)

Christ with his inward virtue, which the outward baptism shadows, preserves us being washed, so that we may call upon God with a good conscience. (Geneva)

by the resurrection of Jesus--joined with "saves you": In so far as baptism applies to us the power of Christ's resurrection. As Christ's death unto sin is the source of the believer's death unto, and so deliverance from, sin's penalty and power; so His resurrection life is the source of the believer's new spiritual life.

As you hopefully can clearly see, baptism is symbolic of what happens when regeneration comes as a result of belief in Christ. Baptism is an ordinance, a commandment even, but as Mark 16:16 says, it is unbelief that damns a person, NOT that they were not baptised. Mark did not say "and he who does not believe and is not baptised shall be damned" leading one to belief that baptism is not necessary nor salvific to effect or bring about salvation in a person's life. Only repentance, faith and regeneration of the Spirit brings salvation.

Ephesians 5:26 (KJV) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Titus 3:5 (KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Ray

 

[mact]

Why in the world would a person be baptized if they didn't first believe?

I've heard people use that argument before, and it doesn't make logical sense.

You've also failed to consider Acts 2:37-41; Acts 22:16; Rom. 6:3-4; Gal. 3:26-17; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Pet. 3:21

The Bible is very clear about baptism, and if you read any of the extra-biblical writings of the early church fathers you'll see that their view of baptism was very different from your own, and they were the ones who sat directly at the feet of the Apostles.

I know of a good book that's a quick read if you're interested in this subject ... its called "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up?" Google it.

Since water baptism is a Jewish ritual , Paul would not say that it is necessary for salation - and , thus , not necessary at all . You can always use that forced infant ritual to shut people up . Or , you can stand outside in the rain and allow the Lord to water baptize you . That should satisfy those "mutilators of the flesh" , as Paul refers to such people .

I'm not interested in "extra-biblical" writings if these writings are contrary to the teaching of God's word!

The Bible does not teach baptismal regeneration, that one's sins are forgiven by being baptised. Baptism is an outward sign of inward grace. It is not the means by which one is saved - Mark 16:16 says that belief (or the lack thereof) is what saves (or damns)

As to your verses, let's look at a few of them for clarification:

Acts 2:38 -

For the remission of sins. Not merely the sin of crucifying the Messiah, but of all sins. There is nothing in baptism itself that can wash away sin. That can be done only by the pardoning mercy of God through the atonement of Christ. But baptism is expressive of a willingness to be pardoned in that way; and a solemn declaration of our conviction that there is no other way of remission. He who comes to be baptized, comes with a professed conviction that he is a sinner, that there is no other way of mercy but in the gospel, and with a professed willingness to comply with the terms of salvation, and receive it as it is offered through Jesus Christ. (Barnes)

Acts 22:16

And wash away thy sins. Receive baptism, as an act expressive of the washing away of sins. It cannot be intended that the external rite of baptism was sufficient to make the soul pure, but that it was an ordinance divinely appointed as expressive of the washing away of sins, or of purifying the heart. Comp. Heb 10:22. Sinners are represented in the Scriptures as defiled or polluted by sin. To wash away the sins denotes the purifying of the soul from this polluted influence, 1Co 6:11; Re 1:5; 7:14; Isa 1:16; Ps 51:2,7. (Barnes)

Rom. 6: 3,4

Is an analogy - just as Christ died and was raised, so we, in baptism,"... are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life"

Romans 6:10 (KJV) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

"The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin (verse Ro 6:1), forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer)." (A.T. Robertson)

Gal. 3:26, 27

What the apostle had asserted in the foregoing verse, he proves in this; namely, that all believers are the children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus, because they are baptized into Christ and have put on Christ;

Col. 2:12


One purpose of baptism is to symbolise the death and burial of the old man, and that by the mighty power of God alone, whose power we lay hold on by faith, in the death and resurrection of Christ; we do not need an external sign to the extent which our fathers had, seeing that our baptism is a most effectual pledge and witness, of that inward restoring and renewing. (Geneva)

Faith in God's mighty operation in raising again Jesus, is saving faith (Ro 4:24; 10:9); and it is wrought in the soul by His same "mighty working" whereby He "raised Jesus from the dead" (Eph 1:19-20). (J-F-B)

1 Pet. 3:21

The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite--that is, baptism administered in connexion with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God--now saves us.

It may be said to save us, not as the meritorious cause, but as the indispensable condition of salvation. No man can be saved without that regenerated and purified heart of which baptism is the appropriate symbol, and when it would be proper to administer that ordinance. The apostle cannot have meant that water saves us in the same way in which it saved Noah, for that cannot be true. It is neither the same in quantity, nor is it applied in the same way, nor is it efficacious in the same manner. It is indeed connected with our salvation in its own proper way, as an emblem of that purifying of the heart by which we are saved. (Barnes)

Christ with his inward virtue, which the outward baptism shadows, preserves us being washed, so that we may call upon God with a good conscience. (Geneva)

by the resurrection of Jesus--joined with "saves you": In so far as baptism applies to us the power of Christ's resurrection. As Christ's death unto sin is the source of the believer's death unto, and so deliverance from, sin's penalty and power; so His resurrection life is the source of the believer's new spiritual life.

As you hopefully can clearly see, baptism is symbolic of what happens when regeneration comes as a result of belief in Christ. Baptism is an ordinance, a commandment even, but as Mark 16:16 says, it is unbelief that damns a person, NOT that they were not baptised. Mark did not say "and he who does not believe and is not baptised shall be damned" leading one to belief that baptism is not necessary nor salvific to effect or bring about salvation in a person's life. Only repentance, faith and regeneration of the Spirit brings salvation.

Ephesians 5:26 (KJV) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Titus 3:5 (KJV) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Ray

Interesting that you say this "I'm not interested in "extra-biblical" writings if these writings are contrary to the teaching of God's word!" but then quote people who explain away clear scripture.

 

[mact]

Well, I know I am born again and that I've got the Spirit in me and around me, and I haven't been baptized. Except as a tiny baby, but you probably agree that doesn't count.

I'm not so sure what difference baptism would make, apart from satisfying my conscience if my conscience told me I needed to.

I'm very much open to this question, but as for now I'm mostly inclined to see baptism as an early tradition sort of like circumcision. I don't think I can do anything physical ("magical") to change how God views me.

I think you will agree that God never changes, and the OT gave a glimpse of what was to come.

Take a look at the story of Naaman.

• Lepersy was symbolic of being "unclean".

• Would he have been cleansed if he had not done what was told to him?
• What detail did he need to follow.
• God chooses how he saves or the vehicle to cleanse us.

2Ki 5:1-14
(1) Now Naaman, captain of the army of the king of Aram, was a great man with his master, and highly respected, because by him the LORD had given victory to Aram. The man was also a valiant warrior, but he was a leper.
(2) Now the Arameans had gone out in bands and had taken captive a little girl from the land of Israel; and she waited on Naaman's wife.
(3) She said to her mistress, "I wish that my master were with the prophet who is in Samaria! Then he would cure him of his leprosy."
(4) Naaman went in and told his master, saying, "Thus and thus spoke the girl who is from the land of Israel."
(5) Then the king of Aram said, "Go now, and I will send a letter to the king of Israel." He departed and took with him ten talents of silver and six thousand shekels of gold and ten changes of clothes.
(6) He brought the letter to the king of Israel, saying, "And now as this letter comes to you, behold, I have sent Naaman my servant to you, that you may cure him of his leprosy."
(7) When the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his clothes and said, "Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man is sending word to me to cure a man of his leprosy? But consider now, and see how he is seeking a quarrel against me."
(8) It happened when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, that he sent word to the king, saying, "Why have you torn your clothes? Now let him come to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel."
(9) So Naaman came with his horses and his chariots and stood at the doorway of the house of Elisha.
(10) Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, "Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored to you and you will be clean."
(11) But Naaman was furious and went away and said, "Behold, I thought, 'He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.'
(12) "Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?" So he turned and went away in a rage.
(13) Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, "My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, 'Wash, and be clean'?"
(14) So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean.

 

[mact]

Well, I know I am born again and that I've got the Spirit in me and around me, and I haven't been baptized. Except as a tiny baby, but you probably agree that doesn't count.

I'm not so sure what difference baptism would make, apart from satisfying my conscience if my conscience told me I needed to.

I'm very much open to this question, but as for now I'm mostly inclined to see baptism as an early tradition sort of like circumcision. I don't think I can do anything physical ("magical") to change how God views me.

Since water baptism is a Jewish ritual , Paul would not say that it is necessary for salation - and , thus , not necessary at all . You can always use that forced infant ritual to shut people up . Or , you can stand outside in the rain and allow the Lord to water baptize you . That should satisfy those "mutilators of the flesh" , as Paul refers to such people .

Well Paul did in Rom, Col, his conversion (including baptism) is recorded twice in Acts.
What are people being baptised in that it would "mutilate the flesh"?... Paul was talking about the Jewish ritual of circumsision. Which he address in Col.
Col 2:11-12
(11) and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
(12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

It is no longer the cutting of the flesh that marks a person as God's child, but through baptism God gives us His spirit and marks us as His.
Rick

 

[bod44]

Perhaps it's true that christians should know the scriptures better. But don't forget that all muslims have, are scriptures and interpretations and culture. They don't have Jesus, they don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't have the stuff which actually makes us christians, which makes us children of God. It's like comparing myself to Bob Dylan's old friends just because I read a book about him

I probably know a lot about different doctrines on the trinity, but I don't have one myself. Should I?

well, as far as knowing your doctrine, its good for at least one reason. Paul said to always have a ready answer for the hope that burns within you. We should be able to logically and Biblically answer why we believe what we believe. You see, if you're working with someone who isn't a christian but is seekign God or a new christian, they want to know why they do certain things and why they believe certain things and we should know why. As I started to learn theology and doctrine it has helped me so much to be able to explain the why questions a whole lot better. It even helps our own understanding alot.

 

[holo]

I think you will agree that God never changes, and the OT gave a glimpse of what was to come.

Take a look at the story of Naaman.

• Lepersy was symbolic of being "unclean".

• Would he have been cleansed if he had not done what was told to him?
• What detail did he need to follow.
• God chooses how he saves or the vehicle to cleanse us.

Sure, if God decides I have to go to a river to accomplish something, I'll comply. But I won't take the story of Naaman as a message personally to me

I believe in Christ. That's it, basically. God apparently decided to save me by taking my punishment and doing away with the enmity. It's a gift, not a buy

It's true that God doesn't change, but it's also true that he does something new.

It is no longer the cutting of the flesh that marks a person as God's child, but through baptism God gives us His spirit and marks us as His.
Rick

No, baptism is the mark, love is. I have God's Spirit and I haven't been baptised, therefore I know baptism isn't a requirement for that.

 

[holo]

well, as far as knowing your doctrine, its good for at least one reason. Paul said to always have a ready answer for the hope that burns within you. We should be able to logically and Biblically answer why we believe what we believe. You see, if you're working with someone who isn't a christian but is seekign God or a new christian, they want to know why they do certain things and why they believe certain things and we should know why. As I started to learn theology and doctrine it has helped me so much to be able to explain the why questions a whole lot better. It even helps our own understanding alot.

I agree to some extent. There are people who can be persuaded by clever logics and bible knowledge, but AFAIK they're few and far between.

The gospel is foolishness to those who won't accept it, so I've stopped trying to make it clever. I found that my testimony works approx. 11527 times better anyway

I believe because Jesus gave me rest (I took him up on his word), and because he turned me into a whole new man, so that's what I'll point to if I need "evidence".

But by all means, do whatever is best in your situation. God is greater than our methods

 

[New_Wineskin]

Well Paul did in Rom, Col, his conversion (including baptism) is recorded twice in Acts.
What are people being baptised in that it would "mutilate the flesh"?... Paul was talking about the Jewish ritual of circumsision. Which he address in Col.
Col 2:11-12
(11) and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
(12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

It is no longer the cutting of the flesh that marks a person as God's child, but through baptism God gives us His spirit and marks us as His.
Rick

Paul did not say that water replaced circumcism as a means of salvation . He talked of those that demanded such as those who bragged about the flesh . To say that one work of the flesh isn't applicable because it is a work of the flesh ( even though a command of the Scriptures ) and then make another work of the flesh as a command because it is their words is hypocritical . Paul states that , if any set of writings could bring about righteousness , that set would be the law . Paul was not arogant enough to say that Moses' writings which quoted the Lord were no longer applicable but his own writings which had few quotes from the Lord ( except quoting other writings that quoted Him ) were applicable would make him into a megalomaniac - "don't listen to Moses - listen to me" . Paul made it clear that it isn't about obeying a written code ( even his own ) - it is about walking in the Spirit .

 

[New_Wineskin]

Paul said to always have a ready answer for the hope that burns within you. We should be able to logically and Biblically answer why we believe what we believe.

If you really believe this , you should have a biblical answer as to why you do believe this .

 

[mact]

Sure, if God decides I have to go to a river to accomplish something, I'll comply. But I won't take the story of Naaman as a message personally to me

I believe in Christ. That's it, basically. God apparently decided to save me by taking my punishment and doing away with the enmity. It's a gift, not a buy

It's true that God doesn't change, but it's also true that he does something new.

No, baptism is the mark, love is. I have God's Spirit and I haven't been baptised, therefore I know baptism isn't a requirement for that.

How did you receive God's spirit and how do you know that you did?
Also, please address the Col 2 scripture that I posted that draws the connection between circumsision and baptism.

The story of Naaman was recorded to teach us about God and the coming of Jesus.

Just believing does not give you the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Act 19:1-5
(1) It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
(2) He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
(3) And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
(4) Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
(5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Rick

 

[mact]

Sure, if God decides I have to go to a river to accomplish something, I'll comply. But I won't take the story of Naaman as a message personally to me

I believe in Christ. That's it, basically. God apparently decided to save me by taking my punishment and doing away with the enmity. It's a gift, not a buy

It's true that God doesn't change, but it's also true that he does something new.

No, baptism is the mark, love is. I have God's Spirit and I haven't been baptised, therefore I know baptism isn't a requirement for that.

Paul did not say that water replaced circumcism as a means of salvation . He talked of those that demanded such as those who bragged about the flesh . To say that one work of the flesh isn't applicable because it is a work of the flesh ( even though a command of the Scriptures ) and then make another work of the flesh as a command because it is their words is hypocritical . Paul states that , if any set of writings could bring about righteousness , that set would be the law . Paul was not arogant enough to say that Moses' writings which quoted the Lord were no longer applicable but his own writings which had few quotes from the Lord ( except quoting other writings that quoted Him ) were applicable would make him into a megalomaniac - "don't listen to Moses - listen to me" . Paul made it clear that it isn't about obeying a written code ( even his own ) - it is about walking in the Spirit .

Address this scripture then. He clearly says that circumsision is not saving and what brings us into contact with the scracrifice of Jesus is baptism. Faith in God is what raises us to a new life out of baptism.
Look at EVER conversion in the book of Acts baptism is part of it. According to acts 2:38 it is the point that our sins are forgiven and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Him
Rick

 

[bod44]

I agree to some extent. There are people who can be persuaded by clever logics and bible knowledge, but AFAIK they're few and far between.

The gospel is foolishness to those who won't accept it, so I've stopped trying to make it clever. I found that my testimony works approx. 11527 times better anyway

I believe because Jesus gave me rest (I took him up on his word), and because he turned me into a whole new man, so that's what I'll point to if I need "evidence".

But by all means, do whatever is best in your situation. God is greater than our methods

i totally agree holo! and yes the best way we can win someone is with a vibrant testimony and a matching vibrant life!

 

[bod44]

Address this scripture then. He clearly says that circumsision is not saving and what brings us into contact with the scracrifice of Jesus is baptism. Faith in God is what raises us to a new life out of baptism.
Look at EVER conversion in the book of Acts baptism is part of it. According to acts 2:38 it is the point that our sins are forgiven and we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Him
Rick

Partially I agree, yet not really. Every conversion did include baptism so I agree that baptism is very very important but baptism doesn't wash away sins, and doesn't make the holy spirit come into our lives. For by grace ye are saved by faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. (eph 2:8) Baptism, like communion is an outward showing that yes, I was buried and rose again like christ. Noone was baptised at the day of pentecost! Salvation and baptism of the Holy Ghost are by faith and faith alone. But, we are commanded to be baptised and it is an outward show of what God has already done through faith, a way of testimony. In revelation it says that they(christians) overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. Baptism is a way of testifying and a sacrament. Be careful, cuz alot of people put limits on how we are saved or how we are baptised with the spirit and as soon as you start saying that there's only one way and one way of life afterwards, theres a problem. I believe 100% in holiness and in being baptised in the holy spirit, but I don't believe that that requires speaking in tongues(though some have that gift) and I don't believe that you're instantly only wearing long pants, three quarter sleeves and that women are wearing skirts, no makeup, and have their hair in buns. Holiness is in the heart, for me that might mean no tv, for some maybe not, it may mean more for some, God is faithful to give light and as long as we are walking in it thats what matters. I've been attending a holiness church on occasion for a while and they say that 'sanctification'(baptism of the holy spirit) is a definite second work of grace and only happens once. I believe that you can get it along with salvation, you may get it separately, whatever, bottom line is, be filled with the spirit. And we should be seeking a fresh anointing of the spirit daily. It is an ongoing experience.

 

[bod44]

If you really believe this , you should have a biblical answer as to why you do believe this .

believe what? That we should have a ready answer? or that we should know doctrine?

 

[Exegete12]

........

I probably know a lot about different doctrines on the trinity, but I don't have one myself. Should I?

Hi Holo, yes I think you should hold a doctrine on the trinity, and that it be a correct doctrine.

This is how Muslims win over Christians to their faith, because no one really understands what is one of the most defining doctrines of the Christian faith.

When Muslims do 'dawah' with us (i.e. their evangelizing term), their first point of reference is to discredit the trinity, and without the correct doctrine of the trinity we can lose faith in God's Word, and then they try and discredit our Bible (not to mention with the help of the Jesus Seminar and other heretical writers).

So doctrines about baptism, Calvinism, etc to me are not much of an importance, when someone is challenging the very foundational doctrine of the Christian faith ... the TRINITY.

 

[Exegete12]

....
Nope . If so , why stop at three ? Aren't their *seven* spirits of God as the Scriptures say ?

Indeed there are?
Go to post # 32
www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=27261182#post27261182

The Spirit was in the Beginning

http://www.scripture4all.org/
Quote:
Gene 1:1 In [a]beginning 'elohiym created/bara' <ath> the Heavens/shamayim and the Land/'erets. 2 and the Land/'erets became to be waste/vain/tohuw and empty/void/bohuw, and darkness on surface of submerged chaos/t@howm, and [a] spirit/breath/wind/ruwach of 'elohiym brooding/rachaph over face/paniym of the waters

Ezekiel 37:13 "Then you shall know that I [am] the Y@hovah , when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you,
Every utterance to the body of Christ in the book of Revelation is the utterance of the seven-fold Spirit of God. It is always the Spirit who is speaking! “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches” (Rev. 2:7).

Seven times in chapters two and three we read that it is the Spirit who is speaking to the churches. “Yea, saith the Spirit” (Rev. 14:13). How different from the prophecies of the prophets who through the ages have prophesied, “Yea, my people, thus saith the Lord...” And how different from the writings of the apostles in their epistles to the churches! “This I (Paul) say” (I Cor. 7:6), or “I (Peter) exhort” (I Pet. 5:1).

Here in this superlative book of Revelation it never says, “Thus saith the LORD,” or “This I say.” Rather, it is, “The Spirit saith, the Spirit saith, the Spirit saith!” Seven times — the number of completion and perfection — the admonition sounds forth, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.”

Why is this repeated seven times? Because of the seven-fold Spirit! He who hears the seven-fold Spirit will be an overcomer! He who overcomes will be a son! He who is a son shall inherit all things! He who inherits all things receives the fullness of the seven Spirits of God! Oh, the wonder of it!

Because the seven-fold Spirit is bestowed upon the overcomers, eventually the entire book is concluded in this way: “And the Spirit and the bride say...” (Rev. 22:17). We read in the beginning of this book that the Spirit is speaking to the churches. But by the end of the book, through the dealings, quickenings, purgings and processings of the Spirit, the soul and spirit of the elect have been brought into union, the masculine nature of the regenerated spirit has wooed and won the affections and obedience of the feminine nature of the soul, and the marriage of the Lamb has come, for His wife has made herself ready. I shall not attempt to develop this thought at this time, for that is not our purpose now, but the Spirit and Bride have BECOME ONE — they speak together! They speak with one voice! The Spirit and the Bride in this passage are a compound subject. The two have been integrated — the two have become one within God’s elect. God is making us as overcomers one with the seven Spirits, and the seven Spirits are being fully inworked into the overcomers. This is God’s great work! It is experientially taking place within those who follow the Lamb in this great Day! This is the consummation of His eternal purpose within us!