Does Christianity Confuse the world is it broken?

GandalfTheWise

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When you deny the Sacraments, the priesthood, the form of Liturgy to be used in worship, and other basic foundations of the faith....you have left the faith which Christ gave to the Apostles and which they in turn gave to the world.

If Protestantism is the true truth, the Jesus would have taught it to the Apostles and told them to carry it to the four corners of the earth for the salvation of mankind. Protestantism didn't show up for 16 centuries, showing that it is a man-made religion created by men like Luther and Calvin who thought themselves geniuses.

It is one thing to contend that the Church has safeguarded the Apostles' teaching and practices. That is something helpful all of us can learn from with well spoken dialog and grace. It is by far another thing to contend that anyone outside the Church has left the faith and should be viewed as a heretic (which in my understanding of the usage of the word puts one outside of Christianity). That implies there is no room for dialog, only submission.

I'm not sure whether or not to interpret your words as meaning that protestants are not actually Christians and that only members of the Church are. Or if I should interpret your words as saying protestants are Christians but not in good standing with God until they acknowledge and join the Church. I do not want to put words in your mouth. Could you clarify what you mean?

Also, please note, I am not trying to bait you with a sneaky question to violate forum rules about questioning whether or not other people are Christians. A statement such as people having left the faith might imply having completely left Christianity which is quite a serious charge and could be interpreted by some as not being Christian anymore. I'm trying to clearly understand what you indeed meant. Thank you. :)
 
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Mountainmike

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I would note two things.

Islam is far from united - is very much torn between Shia and Sunni , chalk and cheese in doctrine, which creates much of the tension and strife in such as Iraq, and they behave very badly towards each other.

Second. The vast majority of Christians are catholic and to lesser extent orthodox which are the ancient Christianity and at a believe in mainly the same things.

The proliferation of other denominations came from solo and sola scriptura, empowering all to divorce scripture from its early church tradition and meaning, so then there became a myriad of conflicting interprerptations of every aspect of doctrine from baptism , salvation, Eucharist, clergy, liturgy, LGBT . All in continuous schisms. To non denoms who all have their own flavour. Sola scriptura is squarely to Blame. They all lack an anchor in authority of interpretation so drift and schism on doctrine.

But by far the biggest number of Christians are Catholic, and a lesser but large number of orthodox who believe similar things.

Yes it is confusing. Even for Christians!
When the greatest schism ( orthodox, catholic) can occur on such an arcane concept as Filioque , that is hard to explain , let alone justify, outsiders must take a poor view of us.

Gandhi said he would have become Christian if he had ever met a true one! He said they were very unlike their Christ! He was right!

Hello Christian people,
I have been working with a lot of different people from various cultures. One thing that I really like to watch like on youtube is Christian-muslim debates etc. The one common theme that I hear coming up AGAINST Christianity is that there are too many different philosophies, denominations, Bibles etc. I am Christian 100% and I understand the differences, but do you think other faiths have a point. Like don't you think that the church should be more unified Like:

Why are there still white, black, Asian, Hispanic, and yes there are multicultural churches.

Why are there so many denominations: Baptist, southern Baptist, independent Baptist, apostolic, united Pentecostal, Pentecostal, Cogic etc.

Why are there so many different versions of the Bible?

Like do you kind of agree with individuals that this can be very confusing to someone who does NOT understand Christianity?


Just a quick note: I do understand that some churches have a larger number of a particular racial group because of music preference, traditions, styles, culture etc. Some Bibles are made to reach individuals who may have a lower or higher reading ability (like Bibles for children) and denominations can be based upon traditional preferences. I think I get it. But could any of you expand on these ideas?
 
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Friend-of-Jesus

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Hello Christian people,
I have been working with a lot of different people from various cultures. One thing that I really like to watch like on youtube is Christian-muslim debates etc. The one common theme that I hear coming up AGAINST Christianity is that there are too many different philosophies, denominations, Bibles etc. I am Christian 100% and I understand the differences, but do you think other faiths have a point. Like don't you think that the church should be more unified Like:

Why are there still white, black, Asian, Hispanic, and yes there are multicultural churches.

Why are there so many denominations: Baptist, southern Baptist, independent Baptist, apostolic, united Pentecostal, Pentecostal, Cogic etc.

Why are there so many different versions of the Bible?

Like do you kind of agree with individuals that this can be very confusing to someone who does NOT understand Christianity?


Just a quick note: I do understand that some churches have a larger number of a particular racial group because of music preference, traditions, styles, culture etc. Some Bibles are made to reach individuals who may have a lower or higher reading ability (like Bibles for children) and denominations can be based upon traditional preferences. I think I get it. But could any of you expand on these ideas?

Christianity developed in an extremely fractured world - of numerous and often antagonistic kingdoms, cultures, nations, languages, borders etc. Extreme intolerance of other kinds of peoples and worldview. On the contrary, the Muslim world was historically a land of strong and unified empires. The caliphates, the Ottoman Empire etc. Large, but united and uniform territories, highly centralized. Historically, equality as basic value and tolerance to people of other faith.

The Christian and Muslim faiths in themselves are different. Christianity in essence (not the teaching of Christ per se), by nature is a religion of certain limitation. As each particular version of salvation is very complicated matter, dependent on so many factors. In Islam, it's as universal and simple as it can be. Say one phrase and that's it. Then just follow the commandments as best you can. No matter who you are or what you are.

The Christian scripture is a patchwork of wide array of ideas, recorder over thousands of years by many authors from a variety of backgrounds, in several languages and in different contexts. Even the gospels present more or less different versions of what Jesus did and said. The teaching of Jesus in most cases is highly metaphorical. Therefore, the Bible creates infinite possibility for interpretations, sometimes most wildest. As for Islam, the Quran is a product of one man's preaching during his second half of life. It contains a clear and simple message reiterated many times, in one language, in a single style and one context. The essential theology is explained directly and leaves very few doubts as to the biggest questions of man.

Starting from the Roman emperor Constantine, Christianity was shamelessly accepted by rulers and governments as a mere tool to "divide, conquer and subject". Islam was a declaration of supreme authority, to which even the prophets and kings must humbly submit. The Muslim states were built on the backbone of Islamic ideology from the start. In other words, historically, Christianity became a slave to governments, as for Islam, it has been the undisputed holy sacred master of governments.

Despite any ideological differences inside Islam, it has a few foundational and unifying factors. One book, the pilgrimage to the same holy sites, same way of salvation, one basic theology, one method of worship etc. Therefore, the differences in most cases can be disregarded and do not constitute the basis for complete antagonism, as the case in Christianity. There is nothing that unifies Christians at all, not even the figure of Jesus Christ so much. They are different on all planes imaginable. They argue and disagree on just about anything. Oftentimes, denominations on deep analysis prove to be completely separate religions with very few things in common.

The modern-day Christianity (not the teaching of the true Christ) has become a collection of a large number of social, economic, political clubs. It went far astray from its founder's purpose and vision. Islam is still very much a faith as it was intended to be. Faith of a Muslim is clear, strong and sincere. Christians, as a rule, are confused and superficial, if not hypocritical.

In the Christian world today, the prevailing humanistic and materialistic (if not atheistic) ideology has become the de-facto ruling ideology. "Science". and "human rights" are its new god. Christianity exists mostly as an anachronism, being pushed into a limited area of people's thoughts, emotions and deeds. In the Muslim world, Islam is still everything. It encompasses all aspects of life, permeates deep into the soul and the external manifestations of life. Christians prefer the god of humanism where it contradicts Christianity. Muslims prefer the tenets of Islam, where it contradicts the Western humanistic ideas.
 
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Light of the East

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It is one thing to contend that the Church has safeguarded the Apostles' teaching and practices. That is something helpful all of us can learn from with well spoken dialog and grace. It is by far another thing to contend that anyone outside the Church has left the faith and should be viewed as a heretic (which in my understanding of the usage of the word puts one outside of Christianity). That implies there is no room for dialog, only submission.

Let's assume that the Holy Orthodox faith is the truth. Or that it contains more truth than other expressions which have dropped certain things from their theological praxis, such as the Sacraments. If this is true, is there ever any room for debate when it comes to truth? Is 2+2=4 up for debate? Is the Trinity up for debate?

I'm not sure whether or not to interpret your words as meaning that protestants are not actually Christians and that only members of the Church are.

There are hyper-Orthodox who would say that, but I am not among them.

Or if I should interpret your words as saying protestants are Christians but not in good standing with God until they acknowledge and join the Church. I do not want to put words in your mouth. Could you clarify what you mean?

If you understand covenant, you understand that once a person has gone through the covenant making ritual, which in the case of the Christian faith, is baptism, one is part of the covenant community. That ritual, doing what it does, cannot change your status from being part of the community to not being part of the community. However, like all relationships (covenant is relationship) one can walk away from it, such as in the case of those who are born into the community but verbally disclaim themselves, or one can have an imperfect relationship within the community, one that means that you are not enjoying all the benefits of being part of that community. Those who have been baptized but are not participating in liturgical worship in which they receive the Sacraments are part of the community (yes, they are Christians) but they are missing out on the fullness of the faith. That would be my take on it.

Also, please note, I am not trying to bait you with a sneaky question to violate forum rules about questioning whether or not other people are Christians. A statement such as people having left the faith might imply having completely left Christianity which is quite a serious charge and could be interpreted by some as not being Christian anymore. I'm trying to clearly understand what you indeed meant. Thank you. :)

Since God has not given me authority to pronounce upon others whether or not they are Christians, I have neither right nor duty to do so. I can, however, say that there are certain truths which go back to the beginning and which, if you do not enjoy them, mean that you are missing something real good.
 
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_-iconoclast-_

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Do you consider Catholics to be part of the Body of Christ?

Im sure there will be many catholics in heaven. :)

I dont feel like debating it now but Catholics who mary worship may be a different story.

The body of Christ are those who hear their Shepard and do His will. By their fruits you shall know them.

God bless you my friend
 
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Light of the East

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Im sure there will be many catholics in heaven. :)

I dont feel like debating it now but Catholics who mary worship may be a different story.

The body of Christ are those who hear their Shepard and do His will. By their fruits you shall know them.

God bless you my friend

You say you don't feel like debating and yet you throw a firebomb into the conversation!! Sheeeesh!!!!
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Why are there still white, black, Asian, Hispanic, and yes there are multicultural churches.

There are no "white" churches. There are black churches, Korean churches, hispanic churches. . . and that's OK, but if there were a "white" church, that would be racist.
 
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Albion

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Hello Christian people,
I have been working with a lot of different people from various cultures. One thing that I really like to watch like on youtube is Christian-muslim debates etc. The one common theme that I hear coming up AGAINST Christianity is that there are too many different philosophies, denominations, Bibles etc. I am Christian 100% and I understand the differences, but do you think other faiths have a point.

The other world faiths, including Islam, also have a number of internal divisions equivalent to Christian denominations. They just take care not to acknowledge them when speaking with Christians.

And as for the biggest issue I notice with Christian-Moslem debates, it's that the Moslems spend a lot of time trying to show us little faults and inconsistencies with Christian belief, questioning many doctrines, etc....while the Christians have essentially no interest in the writings used by Moslems or the various doctrines and religious obligations of Moslems. And why should we? No Christ? Very well then, that's basically all we need to know.
 
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Light of the East

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Sorry to have upset you brother :)

We can debate if you want to?

It's not about debate that upsets me. It's your comment about the Theotokos (Virgin Mary) which is problematic.

We do not worship Her. Period.

We know who God is and we know who She is.

And there is a reason that we honor Her.
 
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It's not about debate that upsets me. It's your comment about the Theotokos (Virgin Mary) which is problematic.

We do not worship Her. Period.

We know who God is and we know who She is.

And there is a reason that we honor Her.

Again sorry to have upset you.

Prehaps we shouldnt continue, it seems you are looking for a fight and to make me feel bad.

God bless you my friend :)
 
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_-iconoclast-_

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while the Christians have essentially no interest in the writings used by Moslems or the various doctrines and religious obligations of Moslems. And why should we? No Christ? Very well then, that's basically all we need to know.

Yes. This is true!!
 
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Sola1517

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Why are there still white, black, Asian, Hispanic, and yes there are multicultural churches.
Multicultural churches are kind of a new trend, but they should have happened a long time ago.
Why are there so many denominations: Baptist, southern Baptist, independent Baptist, apostolic, united Pentecostal, Pentecostal, Cogic etc.
Minor differences. A Freewill Baptist is just as much of a Christian as a Reformed Baptist.
Like do you kind of agree with individuals that this can be very confusing to someone who does NOT understand Christianity?
Oh I agree, I think that we're all gonna have to unite eventually despite theological differences. On top of this the great apostasy we're seeing is in line with 1 Timothy chapter 4, which talks about the last days. The number of skeptics we're seeing doesn't shake me anymore like it used to.
 
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Timahani

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It's not about debate that upsets me. It's your comment about the Theotokos (Virgin Mary) which is problematic.

We do not worship Her. Period.

We know who God is and we know who She is.

And there is a reason that we honor Her.

Light of theEast,

My thread isnt about Catholism vs Protestant. If you would like to spark a debate on that matter you should start up a seperate thread where you can fully address those issues
 
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Timahani

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Wow there is alot of information,insight, and wisdom on this forum.I have spent alot of time with muslim people and I used to get annoyed when muslim leaders would bring up all the "variant forms of Christianity and Biblical Literature".

I was just wanting see the creative ways in which our forum members would attack this debate.

One unique thing that I dont think anyone mentioned was that " That we as Christians should depend on the Holy Spirits guidance and let Him lead us to the right interpretation". I think the muslims view or whoevers view of Christianity will always be limited to the full knowledge thereof if they DONT have Christ". Christ and the H.S are essential keys in understanding the infinite wisdom of God ☺.
 
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Timahani

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There are no "white" churches. There are black churches, Korean churches, hispanic churches. . . and that's OK, but if there were a "white" church, that would be racist.

JimmyJimmy,

There are white churches with a predominantly white congregation...just like there are black,asian, or predominatly Hispanic churches.It is what it is. To others outside of the Christian faith, that can be a turn off to Christianity. Christ died for All not just a particular race of human beings! The church should be the leading EXAMPLE of DIVERSITY.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The church should be the leading EXAMPLE of DIVERSITY.
I'm not sure how this fits under philosphy and ethics.
The church , the ekklesia, is the leading example of God's people - with or without diversity.
The tares , that look like Christians but without life of Christ, 'confuse' things if people watch them, since people cannot see the life of Christ where it is not.
 
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Albion

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JimmyJimmy,

There are white churches with a predominantly white congregation...just like there are black,asian, or predominatly Hispanic churches.It is what it is. To others outside of the Christian faith, that can be a turn off to Christianity. Christ died for All not just a particular race of human beings! The church should be the leading EXAMPLE of DIVERSITY.

The church should not aim to have any particular mix of races and ethnic groups simply in order to cater to "diversity." If all are equal in Christ, the rule should be whoever comes is as welcome as anyone else.

Often, immigrants feel more comfortable worshipping in a congregation that is mainly made up of their own countrymen and, if so, that's fine.
 
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Devin P

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:smiley::smiley::smiley:Trust me Christian people! I get it :smiley::smiley::smiley::smiley:!!!!!!!!!!
Its all about relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ AMEN! And not about religion. I am not needing the lesson. I am just seeing it through the eyes of other faiths who do not understand this form of Christian Jargon. It is very strange to others. For example, muslims all over the world pray the same way, they all must learn the quran and try to learn it in Arabic. They have the same washing rituals before prayer. I have SEEN, not that I agree with, but I have seen many Christian debates turn sour because people often say : Which Bible is the authentic word of God and they start listing like 50 different Bibles and the crowd cheers AGAINST the Christian or they say...Which church is the REAL CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST.. then they point out: This church says women should not wear pants, this church believes heavily in modesty, this church honors the real Sabbath, this church does NOT, this church believes in the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, this church does Not and they all state Biblical reasons for their beliefs.

I GET IT You cannot divide the Divine Essence,Power,and Nature of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ never. I was just wanting to see how other christians in a debate would address these issues. Thank u.

I'll try to spare you the lesson, but basically.

We are meant to be one, in Christ. Christ followed the law, entirely. We too, are supposed to follow the law, not for salvation, but as a fruit of salvation. The confusion you're seeing OP, is because many christians today don't want to follow the law, and despite the bible very blatantly telling us to follow it throughout hundreds of scriptures, the catholic church has turned the vast majority of Christians today away. From simple things, such as keeping the 7th day sabbath. Our beliefs are the ONLY beliefs that have been compromised because of a few very rich and influential people, slowly throughout history.

In no other religion do you see this type of intervention. There is a great deception, and it has taken hold of many that desire a relationship with Yashuwah (Jesus) But honestly, all throughout the bible, if we want to be technical, we are supposed to be one through Yashuwah, not just with "christians" but with the original Israelites, or "jews". That's where the confusion comes into play. We, as christians, are supposed to be just as the jews are, but instead of placing our faith on the works the jews do, we do them, but because of the faith we have in Christ, or better named, and originally named Yashuwah. That's how deep the deception goes, not even our original names are intact, because they have sought to change our faith at every level possible.

Just as the Jews, we're supposed to abstain from pork, abstain from working on the sabbath (saturday), etc, it goes much deeper, and I'm still learning it to it's full extent, but it's actually something I urge you to take a look into. It's the greatest deception of our time. Even holidays such as Christmas, Easter, etc. we're not supposed to observe those holidays as followers of Yashuwah, because they are at their very origins - based on pagan gods. They literally have nothing to do with our Creator, or Savior, but again, the deception runs deep.
 
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I'll try to spare you the lesson, but basically.

We are meant to be one, in Christ. Christ followed the law, entirely. We too, are supposed to follow the law, not for salvation, but as a fruit of salvation. The confusion you're seeing OP, is because many christians today don't want to follow the law, and despite the bible very blatantly telling us to follow it throughout hundreds of scriptures, the catholic church has turned the vast majority of Christians today away. From simple things, such as keeping the 7th day sabbath. Our beliefs are the ONLY beliefs that have been compromised because of a few very rich and influential people, slowly throughout history.

In no other religion do you see this type of intervention. There is a great deception, and it has taken hold of many that desire a relationship with Yashuwah (Jesus) But honestly, all throughout the bible, if we want to be technical, we are supposed to be one through Yashuwah, not just with "christians" but with the original Israelites, or "jews". That's where the confusion comes into play. We, as christians, are supposed to be just as the jews are, but instead of placing our faith on the works the jews do, we do them, but because of the faith we have in Christ, or better named, and originally named Yashuwah. That's how deep the deception goes, not even our original names are intact, because they have sought to change our faith at every level possible.

Just as the Jews, we're supposed to abstain from pork, abstain from working on the sabbath (saturday), etc, it goes much deeper, and I'm still learning it to it's full extent, but it's actually something I urge you to take a look into. It's the greatest deception of our time. Even holidays such as Christmas, Easter, etc. we're not supposed to observe those holidays as followers of Yashuwah, because they are at their very origins - based on pagan gods. They literally have nothing to do with our Creator, or Savior, but again, the deception runs deep.

Hello and God bless

This statement is to do with under grace v under law.

The difference between jews and christians.

Christians are under grace, as the law of moses was fulfilled through the death and resurrection of Christ.

Catholics changing sabbath from sat to sun is a different conversation.

Cheers
 
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