Does believing Genesis is wrong make me a bad Christian?

Archivist

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LOL That happened to me on a politics forum, but the topic was abortion. I said people "cherry-pick" Bible verses to make their arguments against abortion, but they told me I was doing the same thing to express my view on being kind to poor suffering women and helping them during hardship.

Nobody can convince me the bread is literally Christ's body. He is in heaven. That is obvious symbolism.
I believe it is but that is an issue over which Christians disagree. However, unlike this guy, I wasn’t saying that he had to believe that to be saved.
 
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Jipsah

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The core of Christianity is Jesus.
Bang on, which is why I so dislike discussions about ancient notions of the nature of the universe. Christianty is about Jesus Christ, God Himself, intervening in human history, teaching, dying, rising again, and ruling in Heaven. I don't care a whit about how old the earth is, be it 6000 years, 160 zillion years, or created three months ago. I summarize Genesis like this "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Done, next lesson. I'm being a little bit facetious there, but only a little bit. If I had never read the rest of it, I wouldn't be that much worse off. If I hadn't read the Gospels, however, different story. The Old Testament has to be seen in the light of Christ, not the other way around.

We should learn from them, but start by listening to Jesus himself. There's simply no reason Christians should tie following Jesus to accepting 1st Century views of the world.
Preach!
 
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coffee4u

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Mainstream scientists just report what Nature says about itself

If it weren’t for fetal cell DEATH you wouldn’t have fingers or toes . Fetal hands start as paddles.

Biblical death as I have said before is only ever linked to creatures and man with a soul dying. Nephesh chayyah.
This describes sea creatures (Genesis 1:20–21), land animals (Genesis 1:24), birds (Genesis 1:30), and man (Genesis 2:7). Nephesh is never used to refer to plants.

Since cells dying off to create fingers and toes does not kill the unborn this is not biblical death. Whether or not this method would have applied before sin we can't even know. Eve did not get pregnant until after the fall.
 
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Jipsah

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Then the Lord said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me
Ironically, the folks who believed the Genesis acount without question emphatically rejected God Himself when He came the them in person. Hmmmm...
 
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Jipsah

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Yes you have a problem if you believe the Bible is not true in pure form. You are in essence saying that God is a liar.
Sorry, but that's nothing more than rhetorical bullying, and is as nasty as it is untriue. He is saying no such thing, and I reckon you know it. The simple fact is that from a purely scientific standpoint, Genesis isn't true. The details are all wrong. The people who wrote the Bible wouldn't have understood a technical account, and the people who read it wouldn't have understood it either. Neither had way to grasp it, they had no statting point. So the account was given as a story that could be grasped, and provided something to build on. It served its purpose nicely. To continue to cling to that as the literal truth is like an adult clinging to the idea that babies are brought by a stork or the crescent moon is the smile of a Cheshire cat.

Genesis 1:1 New International Version (NIV)
The Beginning 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
This removes all doubt as to it being interpretive, it's a literal truth statement
And that is the one unarguably, literally, true statement in Genesis.
 
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Blade

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Hey! ChristianForCats...so when you still have questions... ask Him from your heart.. ask Him to show you. KNOW He hears you.. know HE will answer. And will show you in HIS book. So you know its Him. There is still so much there we have never seen. Ask Him to open your eyes.. see what He does. Hes your Father with a HUGE PLUS HELLO! GOD! oh and LOVES to talk.. not making this up.. Hes your abba...

HAHA He put that desire there.. wants to show you something..
 
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aschnyder26

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I live on planet reality, you are welcome to visit anytime.

...the scientific evidence is overwhelming ...evolution has the status of fact...

...It is past time that those who purport general evolutionary theory to be fact be brought into the light. Scientifically speaking, this theory does not qualify for classification as fact. It deals with history, which is not subject to investigation by experimentation.

The process of general evolution could theoretically be reproduced through experimentation, but it never has been. Though speciation has been demonstrated in laboratories, no event beyond speciation has ever been demonstrated. Charles Darwin clearly delineated the differences between speciation and general evolution, and noted that the support for general evolution would have to come from the fossil record.

In ''The Origin of Species,'' Darwin noted that without the appropriate fossil evidence (which did not exist in his day) his general theory would hold no weight. He and others tenaciously clung to the hope that the unfolding of the fossil record would show all of the intermediate forms necessary to support his claims. Today, however, with more than 100,000 species represented in fossils, the lack of intermediate forms is even greater than it was in Darwin's day.


Not only has the fossil record failed, but findings of modern scientists have made general evolutionary theory even less tenable. In ''Evolution: A Theory in Crisis,'' for example, Michael Denton methodically analyzes a wealth of evidence that challenges this theory. His subjects include the failure of homology (homologous structures not being represented by homologous genes nor embryonic development); the typological nature of microbiology, and problems associated with chance as a directive force, in addition to the lack of a supportive fossil record.

-New York Times
Dec. 15th 1989

There are many bits of "scientific evidence" that the scientific community claim to be truth. Carbon dating, evolution etc. Just because there is promising evidence doesn't make it truth. There is truth in Jesus Christ in fact He IS the Truth. There is truth in His word, it IS the truth. You can believe God or you can believe the world but you can't believe both. The bible also tells us in second Perter 3:8 "..with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Henry M .Morris in his book entitled "Scientific Creationism" points out that "Despite its high popularity, [radiocarbon dating] involves a number of doubtful assumptions, some of which are sufficiently serious to make its results for all ages exceeding about 2000 or 3000 years, in serious need of revision." Just do a quick google search for "scientist agree carbon dating is inaccurate" and you will be met with all kinds of scientific sources stating the methods and timelines are flawed and inaccurate.

Remember that God is not like us in that he is Eternal, Unexplainable, Immutable, Omniscient, Divine and Self Sufficient. His ways are not our ways. His time is not our time. In fact time is something we invented because eternal beings don't need time. We know very little about anything compared to the Almighty Creator whom formed us from the dust and breathed His very life into us. The same creator who stretched out the heavens. In many ways we are guessing at best. Why would anyone reject what God has told us has happened and try to explain it in our own ways with our own understanding? This is a lack with mans understanding of God and an attempt of man to tell God that man knows better the way it really happened.

Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Brothers and sisters I urge you to trust in God and His word. Do not try to fabricate your own doctrines and beliefs based on mans opinions of knowledge. Job 11:7 "Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?" Read the scriptures as child would and believe on HIS word. Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
 
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coffee4u

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Ironically, the folks who believed the Genesis acount without question emphatically rejected God Himself when He came the them in person. Hmmmm...

Every person rejected God until they were drawn by the spirit and repented.
Romans 3:11
There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.


So don't toss around words that suggest those of us who believe in 6 day creation are rejecting God. That is rude and uncalled for.
 
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fwGod

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This is personal attack.
My post is a valid reply to the OP. You are the one taking issue with it and by your personal opinion calling it a personal attack on you.. even though I wasn't personally addressing any post that you had made.

But now I will.

For everyone who has unbelief.. there's bound to be a believer who will beg to differ. That's just par for the course.

A personal attack would be ad hominem.. which isn't anywhere in my first post.. nor is there any personal attack in this reply to you.
There are plenty of people who think Genesis isn't history, but who aren't under the influence of atheists.
If they aren't then the only other influence that minimizes the Bible is that of the devil who inserts unbelief into anyone's mind who's willing to accept it.
It's pretty clear from reading the OT that it was written by people from a very different culture than ours.
The culture of Abraham/Abram was that of pagan religion. God offered him His covenant which gave birth to the culture. Abraham's descendant was Moses who was living in Egypt as the son of Pharaoh's daughter.. at that time Abraham's culture was all but gone after Joseph died. God had to reintroduce Himself to Abraham's descendants because they didn't know Him. Moses asked, "Who shall I say sent me?" Clearly the man had no idea who God was. And he knew that none in Egypt, and none of the descendants of Abraham living in Goshen would either.

That could well be why God told Moses about Himself starting at the beginning (Genesis) with Adam & Eve.. and on through their descendants up to the life of Moses and God's delivering them.. then God gave them the greater details of the Abrahamic covenant by which they and the many generations have lived, up to and including Jesus.
Not only didn't they understand astronomy the way we did,..
That hardly matters when the most important thing to know is God's gracious gift of redemption. It's clear that Atheists know a great deal about astronomy but know nothing about the God who made the cosmos.
..they had different ideas on how to treat others than Jesus did in some cases.
They were following God's commands, not their own ideas.
But still, it's the culture to which God chose to speak through prophets
Lack of advancements in life improvements or of the sciences is irrelevant. Self achievements were still available which caused the achievers to exalt themselves. So advancements are not the issue. God didn't reveal Himself to educate them in those.
.. and to which Jesus sent his son.
Jesus didn't ever marry or have a son., so clearly you meant that the prophets spoke about God's intent through promise to send His Son Jesus as the means of redemption for all mankind.. in echo of Abraham in obedience to God's direction offering his son in sacrifice. But the angel stopped him from going through with it because God only wanted Abraham to be willing. And instead God did indeed provide for Himself an animal to take the place of Abraham's son.
There's no reason we have to be 1st Cent Jews, or 5th Cent BC Jews, to follow Jesus.
That's why it's not important for everyone on earth to be fully acquainted with astronomy. Clearly you are using the world to refer to Atheisim.

Knowing astronomy in your way of using the word won't advance a person toward redemption therefore it's irrelevant. That's why it's not taught in the Bible. It's not because the people in the OT were incapable of understanding astronomy.

It so happens that the magi were well trained in astronomy in relation to the movements of the stars and planets nearest earth because their lunar calendar and moedic culture required it. They used that knowledge for religious purposes, such as through the centuries keeping track and knowing when the Messiah was born and where to find Him so that they could present their valuable gifts to Him.
It's just this belief that the Bible is directly from God, when any realistic view shows us that it is a human document that shows how people reacted to God's actions.
What you call a realistic view is no more than a sense knowledge view which formed man's basic sophistry. It always seeks to upstage God's superior wisdom.

Calling the Bible nothing more than a human document isn't a matter of facing realistic facts.. it's a matter of unbelief.
There's nothing atheist about saying that God came to people who don't understand modern astronomy.
On the contrary it's very much based on Atheism which puts the sciences as more important than the spiritual dilemma of sinful mankind heading for an eternity in hell without hearing and believing in God's gracious Love in providing for people to be set free from what they have no ability or knowledge of how to escape that horrendous eventuality.

The people don't need to understand modern astronomy in and of itself. They need to understand the God that created all things.. They need to understand why there was sin and to receive God's gracious remedy for it.

Jesus said that a person could gain the whole world and yet lose their own soul. I suspect that Jesus said that while remembering that the devil tempted Him with all that the world had to offer if He'd consent to serve him. Jesus also said that the devil only comes to steal, kill and destroy.. but that He(Jesus) came that people could have life and that more abundantly.

Astronomy / Atheism can't provide what God through Jesus can and does provide to all who hear and believe. Ask any of the former Atheists who found that out by hearing the gospel and believing unto salvation from their sins.
 
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Favoredclay

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Thank you fwGod, I wish I would have answered so well.

I have not been a member of this forum for very long and I was just thinking this morning maybe it was a mistake. I am a regular on several other forums relating to hobbies, sports and business and I have never been called a bully or Nasty on any of those. In my short time here I have seen more unchristian responses then on any of the secular sites. I am seeing why hedrick says we're splitting as a faith.

As a former Atheist, I see were a lot of this comes from, it's a wounded heart and often a sense of low esteem that pours it's self out in forceful emotions. I am not speaking to any particular person, just a general statement. It's people who want to have value in life and have their life mean something. Jesus adds that value to his followers as adopted children of God. When you don't have any hope beyond this life people often feel like they only have this short time to be relevant. Then some of it is just plain evil, fostered by satan, some don't even realize he is using them. I fit this mold very well for many years and I left a lot of damage in my wake. The good news is Jesus' blood covers it all.

I think the original poster had concerns about living a faith that honored God and was looking for direction. Perhaps their heart was troubled because of the struggle of who to believe. I doubt this thread has helped that much, it's just become a platform for individual causes.

I pray God leads the OP to peace in their faith.
 
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fwGod

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I appreciate your openess and willingness to share your heart.
Thank you fwGod, I wish I would have answered so well.

I have not been a member of this forum for very long and I was just thinking this morning maybe it was a mistake. I am a regular on several other forums relating to hobbies, sports and business and I have never been called a bully or Nasty on any of those. In my short time here I have seen more unchristian responses then on any of the secular sites. I am seeing why hedrick says we're splitting as a faith.

As a former Atheist, I see were a lot of this comes from, it's a wounded heart and often a sense of low esteem that pours it's self out in forceful emotions. I am not speaking to any particular person, just a general statement. It's people who want to have value in life and have their life mean something. Jesus adds that value to his followers as adopted children of God. When you don't have any hope beyond this life people often feel like they only have this short time to be relevant. Then some of it is just plain evil, fostered by satan, some don't even realize he is using them. I fit this mold very well for many years and I left a lot of damage in my wake. The good news is Jesus' blood covers it all.

I think the original poster had concerns about living a faith that honored God and was looking for direction. Perhaps their heart was troubled because of the struggle of who to believe. I doubt this thread has helped that much, it's just become a platform for individual causes.
I pray God leads the OP to peace in their faith.
I pray so too.
 
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Job 33:6

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We have an spiritual soul, that is 'game changer', understand? i'm not seeing the christian scientists saying any of this. Probably because they afraid of the backlash from fellow scientific community.

Being tilded as a looney? etc etc.

But this is the basics of christianity, that we are actually immortal beings, also i have experienced things with God that i firmly believe were showing that indeed we have a soul.

I'm a Christian scientist and I work with other Christian scientists. I don't think anyone is afraid to say anything.

It should be noted however that our jobs, like most jobs, are secular in nature. Bus drivers for example, do not go around proclaiming their faith. They drive their bus and that's that. And scientists really are the same. We do our science, but whether someone is Christian or not doesn't really change anything because the scientific method operates independently from our faiths. If I use a ruler to measure a table, my faith operates independently from the science. This is more likely the reason you don't hear scientists running outside and shouting about love for Jesus. It's not really part of the job, no more than a supermarket cashier would run around shouting their faith.

The idea that Christian scientists are afraid of backlash has always been a poor misconception.
 
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expos4ever

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...It is past time that those who purport general evolutionary theory to be fact be brought into the light. Scientifically speaking, this theory does not qualify for classification as fact. It deals with history, which is not subject to investigation by experimentation.
A common, but misguided objection.

From Scientific American:

Creationist Claim: Evolution is unscientific because it is not testable or falsifiable. It makes claims about events that were not observed and can never be re-created.

Response: The historical nature of macroevolutionary study involves inference from fossils and DNA rather than direct observation. Yet in the historical sciences (which include astronomy, geology and archaeology, as well as evolutionary biology), hypotheses can still be tested by checking whether they accord with physical evidence and whether they lead to verifiable predictions about future discoveries. For instance, evolution implies that between the earliest known ancestors of humans (roughly five million years old) and the appearance of anatomically modern humans (about 200,000 years ago), one should find a succession of hominin creatures with features progressively less apelike and more modern, which is indeed what the fossil record shows. But one should not—and does not—find modern human fossils embedded in strata from the Jurassic period (65 million years ago). Evolutionary biology routinely makes predictions far more refined and precise than this, and researchers test them constantly.

Evolution could be disproved in other ways, too. If we could document the spontaneous generation of just one complex life-form from inanimate matter, then at least a few creatures seen in the fossil record might have originated this way. If superintelligent aliens appeared and claimed credit for creating life on Earth (or even particular species), the purely evolutionary explanation would be cast in doubt. But no one has yet produced such evidence.
 
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Job 33:6

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...It is past time that those who purport general evolutionary theory to be fact be brought into the light. Scientifically speaking, this theory does not qualify for classification as fact. It deals with history, which is not subject to investigation by experimentation.


. In ''Evolution: A Theory in Crisis,'' for example, Michael Denton methodically analyzes a wealth of evidence that challenges this theory. His subjects include the failure of homology (homologous structures not being represented by homologous genes nor embryonic development); the typological nature of microbiology, and problems associated with chance as a directive force, in addition to the lack of a supportive fossil record.

-New York Times
Dec. 15th 1989

.

Briefly, as a geologist with published research in paleontology, I just wanted a briefly touch on two items above.

The first being the following statement:
"It deals with history, which is not subject to investigation by experimentation."

Some might say that geology deals with earth history and therefore is not subject to experimentation. But in actuality, the rocks of today, and observation of them, do allow us to understand the past with use of experimentation.

And I'll give an analogy.

The study of mountains for example, in geology, is actually very similar to studying vehicle collisions.

Screenshot_20200601-091358.png


Imagine if there are vehicles smashed against one another. And you can see this. This is kind of how geologists look at mountains.

And the physics and chemistry of how a car breaks when it collides, is similar to chemistry and physics of how mountains and rocks break and collide.

And just as someone can use a model to reverse engineer a car that is broken, you can actually do the same with mountains.

And when it comes to testing, rocks break in very specific ways. Pull them apart and they break at high angles (60 degrees) in a normal fault Horst/graben fashion. Press them together and they break at low angles (30 degree) and tend to ride on top of one another.

Certain rocks also only form at certain temperatures. Some rocks only form at literally several hundred degrees while others only form at extremely high pressures (like having the weight of a mountain on top of it).

Rocks also have brittle and ductile points of change/failure. Just like a plastic ruler, you can bend it only so much before it fails, and if you put a ruler in an oven, it can bend much more before failing. Rocks work the same way, and by examining how much rocks have bent, broken or were heated, we can further discern details about their history.

Screenshot_20200601-092104.png


And so, we can actually do many experiments looking at things like: this is how these rocks break, this is their melting point, this is the angle they're fractured at and this is the direction they have moved (and continue to move at), and with that, we can actually use experiments to understand the past.

Just as we can run experiments on car parts and can see: here is the temperature that car parts melt at here are the angles that they're broken, here are temperatures that they formed at.

We can even look at things like fossil foot tracks to determine what direction was historically "up". Which can tell exactly how certain rocks turned or flipped, and we can collectively use this information to "rewind time" to reconstruct geologic historical events with extremely high precision.

Obviously we can also look at fossils to learn a lot. Find a field of 50 plus dinosaur nests and burrows and it becomes quite clear that a passage of time occurred at the particular layer being observed. And it isn't hard to replay history of nest building or burrowing in your head.

And there is just one other item I wanted to comment on:

"In ''Evolution: A Theory in Crisis,'' for example, Michael Denton methodically analyzes a wealth of evidence that challenges this theory. "

Michael Denton actually isn't a paleontologist and his works on paleontology are actually quite limited in the extent of information he provides, particularly in the book noted above. I suppose the same goes for anatomy. You're much better off reading books written by paleontologists on the topic, such as Donald Prothero, Neil Shubin, or Spencer G. Lucas.

Ultimately what I am trying to say is that, a time machine isn't necessary to understand what happened in the past. A time machine would help with murder forensic investigations, but it's not actually mandatory to conduct testing and investigation and to come to a conclusion about how past events occurred. Especially in cases where evidence for who committed the crime is overwhelming.

As geologists, we are very confident in our understanding of what we see. Very confident both in an ancient earth an in the fossil succession, to the extent that we would simply refer to it as "certainty". Just as we are certain that rocks are hard and pillows are soft, or that water freezes at 0 degrees, or that aluminum crumbles when squeezed. We know what we see and what we see is very clear.

So then we are left with this burning question. How does this "appearance" of an ancient earth fit in with scripture? Is the appearance false, like a veil pulled over our eyes? Was earth created to look old, like a trick? Or do we need to investigate our interpretation of the early chapters of the book of Genesis?
 
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GodLovesCats

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I think the original poster had concerns about living a faith that honored God and was looking for direction. Perhaps their heart was troubled because of the struggle of who to believe. I doubt this thread has helped that much, it's just become a platform for individual causes.

I pray God leads the OP to peace in their faith.

Thank you. Welcome to the forum. Do not feel like it was a mistake to register.

I understand what you are getting at. However, my problem is feeling like I am betraying God because of my inability to read some chapters in he Bible correctly. I am a very literal person, so if something makes no sense as written, I assume the writer is either a liar or an idiot - two things God obviously is not.
 
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GodsGrace101

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or will be a week from this coming Thursday.
I also read you post no. 124.
If you're going to witness to persons, you SHOULD be concerned with how old the earth is.

Some Christians sound pretty dumb by denying science and scientific truths.

Also, we're discussing the Old Testament here,,,
not the New Testament, which is where we meet Jesus fully revealed.

Perhaps you lost track of the O.P.?
No one is denying anything of what you believe.
Jesus is still Jesus, no matter how old the earth is.
But it would be nice to deal with reality.
 
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