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Does a GLOBAL FLOOD truly seem like the BEST explanation for seashells on mountains? (2)

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by ThouShaltNotPoe, Apr 13, 2013.

  1. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    From what I have heard, the religion of Judaism does not believe in the type of "hell" Christianity and Islam appear to view it as.

    I could be mistaken tho........

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7411036/
    JEWS: Do You Believe in Hell?


    View Poll Results: Do you, as a Jew, believe in Hell?

    Yes, I believe in Hell. [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] 1 10.00%

    No, I do not believe in Hell. [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] 6 60.00%

    I believe in something like Hell, but not the traditional form accepted by most Christians. [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] 3 30.00%



    .
     
  2. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    Perhaps the holocaust is evidence that God does exist. Perhaps he 'remembered' the 'remnant' of the Jews right after the holocaust. The punishments pronounced by Ezekiel were over and the last days prophecy of Genesis 49 began.
     
  3. TLK Valentine

    TLK Valentine You will be who you will be. We are our choices.

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    Why would He?
     
  4. USincognito

    USincognito Milk-Bones for Cerberus is a cool album name Supporter

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    :doh:

    What sort of event would cause rapid erosion in a gooseneck shape like that?
     
  5. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    I asked if He would like explaination to some alleged Bible contradictions, and He said

    " I am fine with the Bibles contradictions"

    http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNFPisdo5-RvlhHz8X6riqjszKTl7g

    meaning, He didn't want answers, He just wants to troll a humanist agenda onto a christian forum by accusing Christians of dishonesty, and lying- while at the same time refusing explaination.

    That is considered trolling.

    Is this your agenda? As well, are you accusing Christians of dishonesty and lying? While out to troll the humanistic evolutionary agenda on Christians in their own Christian forum? Without allowing them to answer your posts?

    Secondly, Are you open to the Bibles view of evolution? After all this is a Christian forum!

    I mean there is only so many times a christian wants to hear "Creationists are not scientific, and unintelligent"

    on a Christian forum!

    And some like "subduction zone" are not even open for discussion on the Bible!

    Why be on a christian forum if you don't want answers from the Bible!

    Thirdly, please refrain from calling others liars, dishonest etc. Or your posts will get reported as per forum rules. I don't care if you don't believe in the bible, and or have no interest in becoming Bible believers, That is your perogative, but please don't come onto another religions website, and call that person a liar.

    IT's just rude, blaitant and errogant.

    ...flaming (trolling)

    is not accepted in this forum.

    Just show common courtesy, it's all we "Christians" want.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2013
  6. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    Good Observation, I also notice that strata is usually if almost entirely tightly shaped and contrasted with no evidence of erosion between strata, implying a rapid formation.

    thanks for the comment.
     
  7. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    unfortunately, most of the denominations are increasingly becoming annihilationists. However this is a liberal view of the Bible. The Bible mentions Hell many many times. Gehennah was a place to burn refuse. So to make the annalogy as Jesus did "the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" is to say that there is somewhere in the universe after death a real fire, just as the local gehennah. Only difference was that it was eternal, and would not go out when the kindling died out.

    That is the most direct and literal interpretation of the Scriptures.

    There are many of us still around who adhere to a fundamental literal interpretation (verbal plenary inspiration).

    Even the parable of lazarus was a real story, as parables never once give names of individuals (lazarus), parables are typified by their abstract definitions such as, a farmer, a laywer, a shephard etc. And do not, I repeat do not give names. This would be the first occurance of such in all the parables in the scriptures, which is why many don't adhere that it is a parable and that it is a real event.

    but this is another story, not really the "Creation/evolution" topic.
     
  8. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    slurry on an ocean floor, turbidity.

    and because it would have been under water (noahs flood),

    the solvents of water would have softened and caused rapid erosion.
     
  9. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    Subduction Zone

    here is a christian peer review society the focuses on Global flood topics, and they mention evidence of bottleneck:

    Genetics of Coat Color I - Answers in Genesis

    here is a quote:

    "
    the Bible indicates that terrestrial and flying animals underwent a severe genetic bottleneck at the time of the Flood, estimated by Ussher to be 2348 BC (Genesis 6–8; Ussher 2003, pp. 19–21). The majority of the created kinds of terrestrial animals (that is, the unclean animals, which likely included all non-ruminants; Leviticus 11:1–8, 26–47) were represented by a single breeding pair on the Ark (Genesis 6:17–7:2). Humans also experienced a genetic bottleneck during the Flood when eight individuals were saved (Genesis 7:1, 7, 13; 1 Peter 3:20).

    The creation model must be able to account for diversity observed today within created kinds (baramins) and the human population given this relatively recent bottleneck. Clearly animals have adapted to many different environmental conditions since the Flood. For example, there are foxes (genus Vulpes) which are adapted to arctic conditions (for example, V. lagopus) while others live in the desert (for example, V. zerda; Myers et al. 2008). There have been reports in the literature of rapid adaptation occurring in a variety of animals including lizards (Herrel et al. 2008), finches (Grant and Grant 2006), mosquitoes (Byrne and Nichols 1999), and guppies (Arendt and Reznick 2005). Rapid adaptation fits well within the creationist model since God is a provider who cares for His Creation (Psalm 147:8–9; Matthew 6:25–34) and intends the earth to be inhabited (Isaiah 45:18)."

    let me know if you need more evidence.

    from the above quote:

    "Historically, many creationists have limited explanations of intrabaraminic diversity to initial variability, degenerative random mutations, and natural selection. Given that baraminologic investigation has found that holobaramins tend to include whole families or even several families of animals, there is serious question as to how well the above mechanisms account for what we observe in the world around us. For example, the family Felidae (cats) is believed to represent a holobaramin as is the superfamily Physeteroidea (grouping of toothed whales) and the suborder Mysticeti (baleen whales) (Wood 2006). Given the degree of variability within these taxa, creationists should be asking what kind of genomic differences exist within a holobaramin and if current explanations truly account for these differences."
    addressed this above
    already addressed
    there was
    this was a different post regarding Ice cores
    However you have shifted the burden of proof, I asked for proof of your
    poitive statement of Ice Core dates and mentioned that they used a biased
    mechanism, you in turn say they are done "by eye." I then state that
    that is circular reasoning, then you say the Bible is circular? That is nonsequitor, and has nothing to do with ice core dating.
     
  10. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    Thankyou for the discussion Joshua on the Garden of eden,

    Not sure that you had time to respond before thread closure. I reposted. Again this is in context of you not adhering to the Bible's global flood, because you believe they were somehow saved in the Garden of eden, if I remember correctly.

    one problem I might possible see with your theory that they were saved
    in the Garden of eden is that:

    they were banished from the entire Garden way before the Flood! Never
    again to set foot in.
    Genesis 3:23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

    and to make sure, there was an angelic guard posted to make sure they
    didn't sneek in:
    Genesis 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

    in addition to the above links to parallel Bibles, here are three more
    conservative english translations proving Adam and Eve's expulsion
    from the Garden:

    Genesis 3:23-24
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till
    the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He
    placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword
    which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

    Genesis 3:23-24
    English Standard Version (ESV)
    23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work
    the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at
    the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming
    sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

    Genesis 3:23-24
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to
    cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man
    out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim
    and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to
    the tree of life.


    In Conclusion:

    it is relatively impossible to be protected in a garden that they were
    kicked out of!


    I await your Biblical reply, and thank you for the comment.
     
  11. Mr Strawberry

    Mr Strawberry Newbie

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    Using a capital for 'He' is used when referring to God. This makes what you have just written slightly difficult to decipher. After it became clear you weren't talking about God, I thought you must be referring to AV1611VET as my post was about him, and I was quite surprised to see you taking him to task too. Then on further investigation you were not referring to God or AV1611VET but someone else who has tried to debate with you on this forum. Why you launched into this confusing attack isn't clear.

    Glass houses and all that...

    No, he is quite open and straight about deliberately remaining ignorant of his own errors. He has said he won't read the Rogers Commission Report.

    In the Creationism versus Evolution subforum you mean? You don't approve of pro-evolution posts in the Creationism versus Evolution sub forum?

    How could anyone stop them? By the way, did you ever get round to an answering the temperature problem for the amount of rain associated with a global flood?

    If it has one.

    They aren't usually accused of being unintelligent, just uninformed, sometimes wilfully.

    I'm not sure that's what he said, but I'll let him answer.

    On the Creationism versus Evolution subforum you mean?

    Now, now, you want to be careful with accusations like that. You don't want to start saying that I have accused someone of being a liar when I haven't. That may not turn out well for you. Forum rules you know.

    your spelling has gone to pot.

    Maybe you should remind AV1611VET of that the next time he tries to conflate science, satan and the Challenger tragedy.

    Strangely, non-Christians appreciate it too.
     
  12. USincognito

    USincognito Milk-Bones for Cerberus is a cool album name Supporter

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    Really? Would you care to explain the details using geology and physics... or is this yet another example of Creationists making stuff up?

    Tell us. How would slurry on the ocean floor and turbidity grind through sandstone, limestone, bedrock, etc. with nearly vertical walls in a goosenecked pattern? Details please.
     
  13. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    The topography of the area influences the course of runoff.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2013
  14. Lucy Stulz

    Lucy Stulz Well-Known Member

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    Geology Quiz: What kind of gradient is the surface at that usually forms river meanders like this?

    Just curious if any of our esteemed Floodists know basic geology.
     
  15. Lucy Stulz

    Lucy Stulz Well-Known Member

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    How Geologists differentiate TURBIDITE flow channels from RIVER MEANDERS

    [​IMG]
    (LINK)

    OK, so there's a sciencefor that. Who would have thought it?

    Why would the "solvents of water" need to "soften" loose sediment?
     
  16. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    The Bible doesn't have a "view of evolution". Evolution isn't mentioned in the Bible because it has nothing to do with the message of the Bible. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The Bible is not a science textbook, and it was never meant to be. It's about God's relationship with man and the salvation of our souls.

    Jesus didn't teach biology, chemistry, or geology, that wasn't His job. The Bible and the messages of Jesus and the prophets deal with spiritual, not scientific matters.

    Well when threads in this forum get hijacked with topics like whether God exists, whether Jesus existed, whether the message of Jesus was moral or not, how to interpret the doctrine of Hell, whether the belief in Hell makes God immoral... I'd say all of those topics are not relevant to this forum.
     
  17. George95

    George95 CF Tech Master Staff Member Red Team - Moderator CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    [​IMG]
    MODERATOR HAT ON
    Right, regarding the old thread of this topic. A thread cleanup was performed, and all flaming posts were removed. If any flaming is found in this topic, the topic will be closed.

    The CF Moderation Team

    MODERATOR HAT OFF
     
  18. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    I thank you, George for cleaning up the thread!

    Also if you guys want to talk to me, I am taking a break from Cf for a while. I will message you my email where we can talk if you want. I am focussing on school right now (programming). And do not have time to devote to this. Maybe later. As for now please reference below:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology

    also answers in genesis peer review sections
    Answers Research Journal - Creation, Evolution, Scientific Research - Answers Research Journal


    other science here: (peer reviewed)
    More on How We Can Know Intelligent Design Is Science - Evolution News & Views

    etc and also some info on basic debate and logical fallacy
    1. Exploring the Many Fallacies of Evolution | Creation Moments
    2. LOGICAL FALLACIES OF EVOLUTION 101: BEGGING THE QUESTION | Creation Moments
    3. Logical Fallacies: The Fallacy of Begging the Question - Answers in Genesis
    4. Logical Fallacies of Evolution 101: Argumentum Ad Populum | Creation Moments
     
  19. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    I don't think you understand what "peer reviewed" means. Your link to a so called peer reviewed article definitely was not. A group of creationists agreeing with each other is not "peer review".

    There are a few creationist scientists that can do peer reviewable quality work. They have published papers, they know how the system works. They do not ever submit their "creation science" for peer review. That shows they know deep down inside that their work is fatally flawed and would not get published.
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    Now let's deal directly with some of the articles you listed.

    On "flood geology". The main problem with it is that there is no unified whole and when any aspect of it is inspected in depth the claim of creationists fall apart. Take the fossil record as an example. If you want to claim that the sedimentary rocks formed during the flood you have to explain how many millions of years of coral grew in one year. How millions of years worth of chalk were deposited in months. Why the fossils are sorted the way they are, and no claims of size or density given yet can explain that. Why we can see different environments of deposition in the middle of a flood ranging from deep water to shoreline to wind blown terrestrial sediments, including evaporites which showed that the flood had totally dried up.

    Answers in Genesis as I already told you has no peer reviewal.


    On Martin Gaskell, it is disputable why he was not hired. He managed to get a law suit started and he was offered a small sum for the lawsuit to go away. The university must have been fairly confident since the amount offered was definitely less than what their lawyer fees alone would have been.

    Here is an article that explains why he had nothing:

    Martin Gaskell was not expelled – Pharyngula


    In your article number 2 it was pointed out that it would take 5 miles of water to cover the Earth and the lame excuse that if the Earth were flat It would not take 5 miles. Of course no creationist can explain in a satisfactory way why or how the Earth could have been flat 4,500 years ago. All "creation science" has been busted at some time or another, yet creationists keep ignoring this. They say "if the Earth was flat" and then reason from that, forgetting that the so called reasons the Earth was flat had been debunked long ago. And by "flat" I mean topographically, not spherically.

    Let's see article 3. It seems to make the mistake that there is only one form of evidence that shows the Earth is billions of years old and that it is "begging the question" when you base your results on that. The problem is that there are many different indicators of an old Earth and no indicators of a young Earth. To reject an old Earth and Solar System you have to ignore all science since and including Isaac Newton.

    And to claim number 4. When all but a very small group of experts agree it is usually best to go with the majority. I doubt if the creationists here can name one well accepted theory that was accepted by over 99% of all qualified scientists for over 100 years that was ever shown to be false. To even attempt to do so they have to bend the meaning of the word
    "theory" past the breaking point.

    Too bad you are leaving since all of these could be discussed further. The short answer is that it is all a bunch of fail.
     
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