Does a GLOBAL FLOOD truly seem like the BEST explanation for seashells on mountains?

[AV1611VET]

Ah, so you have nothing then.

A population or genetic bottleneck is an observable, in the genetic variation of a group, event. Remember, when you do not understand a word or terminology Google is your friend.

No floaties in the gene pool until after the Fall.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There was no "genetic bottleneck" created by the Flood.

The gene pool back then was much purer than it is now, so "interbreeding" would not have been a problem back then.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

It does not matter how "pure" the gene pool was. Genetic bottlenecks are determined by measuring genetic diversity and rates of mutation.

If the flood happened there would still have been a genetic bottleneck since the gene pool was incredibly small.

 

[AV1611VET]

We can observe annual snow layers forming today. With trees we can observe the formation of annual tree rings.

But retconning those back to Adam's generation is what we call uniformitarianism, which leads to faulty interpretation of Scripture (and reality).

 

[Subduction Zone]

is there any Bible contradictions that I can help you with?

You apparently have this idea all packaged up like it's a done deal..

Maybe you should let out some of your frustrations?

No, I am fine with the various flaws and contradictions in the Bible. The only frustrations I get are when debating the facts with Christians and seeing them do all sorts of weird gymnastics to deny the obvious.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But retconning those back to Adam's generation is what we call uniformitarianism, which leads to faulty interpretation of Scripture (and reality).

No, it leads to a correct interpretation of scripture, that much of it is simply a fairy tale, and of course reality.

See when all of your ideas form a coherent whole you can be pretty sure that you are on the right track to describing reality.

When you have to invent thousands of miracles to cover a supposed event then you should know that you are in La la land.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No floaties in the gene pool until after the Fall.

Again that makes your claim even harder to defend.

Variation is not "floaties". Only two people would mean an extremely limited gene pool. Even more so than Cheetahs have. There would be no need to have anti-rejection drugs if we had a bottleneck anything like the two mentioned in the Bible. Transplants would be worry free.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

If you think you're going to intimidate me into reading the Roger's Commission Report, you're wrong.

Yeah, don't listen to them, AV1611VET, they're just trying to stop you making a fool of yourself. Who do they think you are for goodness sake, someone who wants to know when he's wrong? How silly of them!

 

[Subduction Zone]

water can cut through steel, etc.

I find it hard to believe faster water can't cut through granite, limestone etc.

It is highly probable at least some of the gullies found in the world were the product of underwater slurry erosion "turbitity currents." While there was over 300 days of water.

So you have no coherent reply to incised meanders.

Don't worry, no creationist has one yet.

 

[AV1611VET]

It does not matter how "pure" the gene pool was. Genetic bottlenecks are determined by measuring genetic diversity and rates of mutation.

Here's what the e-science bible says:

A population bottleneck is a sharp reduction in size of a population due to environmental stochastic events (such as earthquakes, floods, fires, or droughts) or human activities.

Now that I've looked it up, and gotten the [allegedly] proper definition -- I agree that a population bottleneck occurred as a result of the Flood.

So what's the problem?

You guys make it sound like a "genetic bottleneck" (whatever that is), should disprove the Flood, when your bible says it is a result of the Flood.

To be honest, I don't think you guys know what it is.

I could be wrong though.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, it leads to a correct interpretation of scripture, that much of it is simply a fairy tale, and of course reality.

See when all of your ideas form a coherent whole you can be pretty sure that you are on the right track to describing reality.

When you have to invent thousands of miracles to cover a supposed event then you should know that you are in La la land.

I don't invent "thousands of miracles to cover a supposed event," chief.

The Bible says it -- that settles it.

If you guys think it would be "thousands of miracles," then I'll call your bluff and challenge you to name one-tenth of [I'll make this easier for you] one thousand miracles that are required to interpret a global Flood.

(And please hurry up with your answer ... I'm 58 years old.)

 

[Lucy Stulz]

give him a break, I mean you guys rarely if every read any links I post.

actually the real problem is that most people read MORE than just your links. Many read the real geology that often speaks against your links explicitly.

And usually from actual geologists.

The problem is that we often read TOO MUCH and so get a bigger view of the topic.

That is why it is hard to find many yec geologists.

 

[AV1611VET]

Again that makes your claim even harder to defend.

Are you saying that God created a population bottleneck in Genesis 1?

Is that what you want me to believe?

After all, if 8 people in Noah's time constitute a population bottleneck, then what do 2 people in Genesis 1 constitute?

Don't tell me the Flood couldn't have been possible because of 8 people being left, or I'll point out that the Creation happened with only 2 people starting out.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Here's what the e-science bible says:
Now that I've looked it up, and gotten the [allegedly] proper definition -- I agree that a population bottleneck occurred as a result of the Flood.

So what's the problem?

You guys make it sound like a "genetic bottleneck" (whatever that is), should disprove the Flood, when your bible says it is a result of the Flood.

To be honest, I don't think you guys know what it is.

I could be wrong though.

A genetic bottleneck leaves evidence in the genome of a population.

It shows up as a limitation of variation. For example you can take almost any random Cheetah and use its skin in a skin graft operation on another cheetah. You can't do that with people or very many other species. Cheetahs had a genetic bottleneck not very long ago, it is estimated to be about 10,000 years in their past. They had a very small population, which was still much lager than two cheetahs. They almost died out. They are recovering, but doing so slowly.

A species history can often be read in its genes. No evidence for a recent extreme bottleneck for all animals means there was no flood.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yeah, don't listen to them, AV1611VET, they're just trying to stop you making a fool of yourself.

Nothing on earth can make an atheist out of me -- especially after reading these posts over the years.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Are you saying that God created a population bottleneck in Genesis 1?

Is that what you want me to believe?

After all, if 8 people in Noah's time constitute a population bottleneck, then what do 2 people in Genesis 1 constitute?

Don't tell me the Flood couldn't have been possible because of 8 people being left, or I'll point out that the Creation happened with only 2 people starting out.

That is what your Bible claims. I am not trying to get you to believe anything.

They are both highly improbable events and they would be observable in the genes of the people of the world as a whole.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nothing on earth can make an atheist out of me -- especially after reading these posts over the years.

Accepting evolution does not make someone an atheist anymore than accepting helio-centrism does.

Are all of those people who believe that the Earth moves, contrary to Scripture, atheists?

 

[AV1611VET]

A genetic bottleneck leaves evidence in the genome of a population.

{snip}

A species history can often be read in its genes. No evidence for a recent extreme bottleneck for all animals means there was no flood.

What are you saying here?

That Genesis 6 - 9 should be encoded in our genes or something?

If you reverse-engineer our DNA, I assume we would mainly go back to either Shem, Ham, or Japheth and, by extension, Adam.

 

[AV1611VET]

They are both highly improbable events and they would be observable in the genes of the people of the world as a whole.

Then keep looking.

 

[USincognito]

SZ, please just ignore him or put him on your ignore list. The C&E subforum will be much better served without you wasting your time.

 

[AV1611VET]

Accepting evolution does not make someone an atheist ...

I disagree.

Let me paraphrase a passage of Scripture, so you'll ... um ... understand it.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be Homo sapiens, they ended up atheists.

Not everyone who believes in evolution ends up an atheist -- we're not talking cause-and-effect here; but some (most?) do.