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wobbly said:This is an interesting topic and I'd like to find out what the truth is, but I think we're not going to get there this time. Why? because I don't think we're really trying to find the truth. To take one quote as an example, (and sorry for picking on you genez but...)
thats not very helpful in finding out what the truth is. 'they' specifically refers to the devil and his angels, and not people. So we don't need to make up our own tranlation.
wobbly said:This is an interesting topic and I'd like to find out what the truth is, but I think we're not going to get there this time. Why? because I don't think we're really trying to find the truth. To take one quote as an example, (and sorry for picking on you genez but...)
thats not very helpful in finding out what the truth is. 'they' specifically refers to the devil and his angels, and not people. So we don't need to make up our own tranlation.
goodnews said:Genez,
Did you know that there is NO Greek or Hebrew word for eternity in the Bible?
goodnews said:Genez,
Do you believe that God will send EVERYONE who does not believe in Jesus to Hell?
Not babies. Not idiots who can not reason. God automatically saves those who can not reason good from evil, and die before they are able to. David had a son only a few days old that died. This is what David said after his death.
"David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked.
"Yes," they replied, "he is dead."
Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.
His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"
He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." 2 Samuel 12:19-23 niv
David knew he would see his son again after he will die.
Do you know anyone who has not received Jesus? Are you FEARFUL that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire?
We all do. The famous Evangelist D.L. Moody had a son who was an atheist.
Should we not WEEP endlessly, for all the babies and little children who died without knowing Jesus, if they are indeed headed to the lake of fire for all eternity?
No... they are saved automatically if they die before their time.
Personally If I believed that most of my family and loved ones were going to be torchured without hope of mercy forever and ever, I would have no joy. What would the Goodnews be worth?
God, who will be sending them there, has perfect endless joy. His righteousness and justice are perfect. What keeps us unhappy is our ignorance of the truth. Jesus said, "the truth will make you free."
If my family were all unbelievers? At the resurrection I will have been transformed to knowing Christ as he knows me.
"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:12 niv
He will wipe away every tear by making me able to see these things as he sees them.
"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." Revelation 21:4
He has perfect joy! People will be in Hell, and he has perfect joy! What does he know that allows for such joy? If my family are to go to the lake of fire? I will be in agreement with Christ. For I will be able to see it as he sees it. I will not be shaken from the joy of the Lord.
"But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy." Hebrews 1:8-9 niv
Grace and peace, GeneZ
But this would mean they don't ever get to choose? Also they wouldn't have to accept Christ as their saviour?genez said:No... they are saved automatically if they die before their time.
G4m said:But this would mean they don't ever get to choose? Also they wouldn't have to accept Christ as their saviour?
I used the phrase "age of accountability", but I personally dont believe its an actual age. I believe that we all reject Christ at a certain point in our lives. I know that there are several places in the Bible that Jesus points out that the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to "such as these" and anyone that hinders a child will suffer grave consequences. Jesus also points out that we all need to have faith like a child. This tells me that children have more faith than us to begin with. I believe everyone starts out believing God is God. It only makes sense. It's so simple. Here is this creation, it must have a creator. Man must think to himself that there is no God and reason that he is smarter than his Creator. I believe that is a great rejection. I also believe it to be EXTREMELY important to teach our children God's Word. There are several times in the Bible that we are commanded to teach our children the Law of God and what is right. We have a BIG responsibility when it comes to this. Which is why I believe Jesus stressed it the way that He did.hola said:I understand, and I agree. It's just where people try to draw the lines...the age that people think children can finally believe, basically...that's where I have the issue. Some people may say it's around 12 years old, or whatever age they think children can come to "saving faith" (I don't quote saving faith to be sarcastic...I'm just trying to put it in their terms). I agree with what you are saying Carl. But I won't try to determine things such as others do about an age when children reach a certain maturity to finally make a decision to be saved, or to be able to lose their salvation...it seems pointless to try to pin point such a maturity to me, because I can't determine it...only God would know, right? Besides...I agree with what genez had posted about babies, but to determine a certain age when they can reject Christ, I can't decide. If someone else knows, and can show by Scripture (most preferably), I would appreciate hearing. I'm not saying that I know all about what people call "age of accountability", I'm just going by what I've heard and discussed with others in the past.
Now you may say that "age of accountability" has nothing to do with when they can first believe...but I've kind of received different impressions from others...it may be more of a thing of when they can reject Christ (and some people think that's not possible to do-not trying to start an off topic debate).
First, thanks for using a modern x-lation. I find it much easier to understand.genez said:The passage I gave shows that is an impossibility. It may be comforting to you, but the Word tells us what you claim (and I know, there are others who try, also) is not going to happen.
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10 niv
Martin,wobbly said:It seems that in this thread we're mistaking our dearly held understanding of scripture for the truth, which in this case is not clear, because there are sincere christians with different understandings.
I think in this case we are more interested in defending our understanding than actually learning from others who have a different understanding.
Ideally (I think) we should be positive and explain what and why we think, so that everyone can check it out and see how it compares with scripture.
Here endeth the lesson ... he says getting down off my soapbox. I'm actually trying to answer the question, not just pick on people or sound as though I'm better than anyone else.
Martin
There are TWO judgements. The first Judgement is upon the House of God (believers) and the second is upon the world (unbelievers), both are symbolic and both FIRES are used to REFINE and CHANGE the said persons.Zona said:Per my post #70, I am looking carefully at the passages people have presented in forwarding their reasons for what they believe about hell. Here's my take on the first one.
Earlier a passage from Isaiah was used to make a point re. hell. The passage is as follows:
Specifically, I think verse 14 was used to support that hell is a place of everlasting punishment. Upon study of this verse, I don't think it says anything about hell. I get this from the answer to the passage's question: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?" The answer is given that the righteous can dwell in the fire. Nowhere do I know of scripture where the righteous are to dwell in hell.13 You who are far away, hear what I have done;
you who are near, acknowledge my power!
14 The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless:
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"
15 He who walks righteously
and speaks what is right,
who rejects gain from extortion
and keeps his hand from accepting bribes,
who stops his ears against plots of murder
and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil-
16 this is the man who will dwell on the heights,
whose refuge will be the mountain fortress.
His bread will be supplied,
and water will not fail him.
Ps139.....Could it be that the Lake of Fire that burns with Divine incense, and our God who is consuming fire be the same? And, if hell and the Lake of Fire are the same, evidently hell is cast into itself.ps139 said:I think the Lake of Fire and Hell are two words for the same thing. And souls are not destroyed by God - souls will exist in Heaven and hell for eternity.
post #16FineLinen said:Ps139.....Could it be that the Lake of Fire that burns with Divine incense, and our God who is consuming fire be the same? And, if hell and the Lake of Fire are the same, evidently hell is cast into itself.
[move]Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire....[/move]
http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken1/htm/iii.htm
Zona said:First, thanks for using a modern x-lation. I find it much easier to understand.
Second, do you see that the passage you quote specifies Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet? I am not sure how you get from this passage to an unqualified statement that all who are to thrown into the lake of fire after the Judgement are also to be tormented for eternity.
BTW, I am not seeking comfort and the only thing I have claimed is that I am not sure I know the answers to my questions.
There is no judgement of our heavenly Father that is not bathed in mercy, and no mercy apart from judgement. "No mercy only correct judgement" is nonsense!All of us past and future will be raised bodily on the day of judgement (no rapture, no warnings) and will stand before God for our final and eternal judgement... there will be no mercy, only correct judgement..
What I mean to say is there will be no chance to change your position, judgement will be final at that point... God will take whatever we throw at him until that point (the last day), and then it's too late. God's mecry is for us now, among the living, we make our own bed... once we leave this life our opportunity to accept mercy is gone..FineLinen said:Orthodoxy: You posted on #16
There is no judgement of our heavenly Father that is not bathed in mercy, and no mercy apart from judgement. "No mercy only correct judgement" is nonsense!
[move]For His mercy endureth forever, for His mercy endureth forever, for His mercy endureth forever.[/move]
"....and mercy triumphs over judgement."
Justice -George MacDonald-
http://www.ccel.org/m/macdonald/unspoken3/unspoken3.htm
Agreed.orthodoxyusa said:What I mean to say is there will be no chance to change your position, judgement will be final at that point... God will take whatever we throw at him until that point (the last day), and then it's too late. God's mecry is for us now, among the living, we make our own bed... once we leave this life our opportunity to accept mercy is gone..
Forgive me...
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