Do your best to explain Romans 5

[FineLinen]

Mark Kennedy posted=

"Then not everyone is in Christ the way were in Adam."

This is the deal:

The identical polus in Adam1 is the polus in the Last Adam! A perfect equation>>>>>>>>

Adam1= the mass/polus "made sinners"

Last Adam=the mass/polus "made righteous"

 

[corinth77777]

Sorry but that is not what actually saves you.
The Holy Spirit blows Christ says as the wind, which He says the wind blows where it wills to go, so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. So the will is the Lord's will, to make whoever He desires born again, you do not control where the wind blows, and you can not control the Holy Spirit.
Being first born again is the first step to you receiving Christ as Lord.
After your are born again, the Father teaches you, you learn and come to Christ.
All who then receive Christ as Lord, God seals in the Holy Spirit.

All that God makes born again are those God the Father gives to the Son, all of them are taught and learn of the Father and all of them who learn because God teaches them come to Christ.

Jesus tells us to marvel not that you must be born again. What this means, it is out of your control and it is in His control, and it is not some complex task you must perform to be born again, this is what God does for you.

I didn't say it did..So nothing to be sorry about.

 

[mark kennedy]

As I see it all believers are in Christ the way all sinners are in Adam. Is someone in Christ before he/she is saved?

No, there were prophets and judges chosen from the womb to ministry but the time of conversion is known primarily, if not exclusively, in the mind of God. When you recieve the Gospel and the Holy Spirit comes to be with you, its forever. We dont really know when that moment comes exactly but many are called and few are chosen. So how do we know we are 'in Christ', we have to get that assurance that we are the children of God from the Holy Spirit himself. It did not surprise God when Adam sinned or when you got saved. There will be a time when this is all revealed but thats at final judgment. I do think God works with people up to conversion and knows what the time of decision will produce, but for us those questions remain elusive.

 

[zoidar]

Sorry but that is not what actually saves you.
The Holy Spirit blows Christ says as the wind, which He says the wind blows where it wills to go, so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. So the will is the Lord's will, to make whoever He desires born again, you do not control where the wind blows, and you can not control the Holy Spirit.
Being first born again is the first step to you receiving Christ as Lord.
After your are born again, the Father teaches you, you learn and come to Christ.
All who then receive Christ as Lord, God seals in the Holy Spirit.

All that God makes born again are those God the Father gives to the Son, all of them are taught and learn of the Father and all of them who learn because God teaches them come to Christ.

Jesus tells us to marvel not that you must be born again. What this means, it is out of your control and it is in His control, and it is not some complex task you must perform to be born again, this is what God does for you.

Just of curiosity, this with being born again first and then receiving Christ, where do you get this idea from? It's not one of Calvin's ideas is it?

 

[zoidar]

No, there were prophets and judges chosen from the womb to ministry but the time of conversion is known primarily, if not exclusively, in the mind of God. When you recieve the Gospel and the Holy Spirit comes to be with you, its forever. We dont really know when that moment comes exactly but many are called and few are chosen. So how do we know we are 'in Christ', we have to get that assurance that we are the children of God from the Holy Spirit himself. It did not surprise God when Adam sinned or when you got saved. There will be a time when this is all revealed but thats at final judgment. I do think God works with people up to conversion and knows what the time of decision will produce, but for us those questions remain elusive.

I don't disagree with you that the time of conversion is known by God. I could argue that king Saul was chosen from the womb to salvation. I don't believe in perseverance of the saints.

 

[corinth77777]

Just of curiosity, this with being born again first and then receiving Christ, where do you get this idea from? It's not one of Calvin's ideas is it?

And here is another, I john 5

1 John 5 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
5 Everyone who believes (adheres to, trusts, and relies on the fact) that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah) is a born-again child of God; and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of Him (His offspring).

The reason they believe is they are born of God, they don't believe to become born of God.

1 John 5 English Standard Version (ESV)
Overcoming the World
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

I won't say I understand all these views...
because I don't.
However, I do believe a man needs to be born again. Certainly if one is Spiritually dead he needs to be made alive some how... But what that includes or doesn't include I've yet to study..That's Why I said lets dwelve into it for discussion.
The way I view salvation is a continual life with God.
Why? Because when I'm in His presence I have a vibrant, joyful, peaceful life and I speak of what I know because of it.
And If I'm going to continue to have a vibrant life I must obey God.....that's truly the end all for me...is that I trust Him...and not on my ownb with the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[sdowney717]

Just of curiosity, this with being born again first and then receiving Christ, where do you get this idea from? It's not one of Calvin's ideas is it?

It is in fact the belief of the reformers, essentially calvinism.
Regeneration comes first is what they believed.
https://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith

I used to believe the other way, but found it not scriptural.
We are saved by His mercy, hence total grace and love poured out onto us.
He did this by regenerating us, renewing us in the Holy Spirit.
As you can read, no mention of belief at all here!
Just poof, you will be saved. Which is the being born again part, afterwards when you believe you are sealed. All those regenerated are essentially saved, but have not made the good confession yet, but they WILL, people believe from the heart, the heart is what gets regenerated, so you can see what comes first..
Titus 3:4-6 English Standard Version (ESV)
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Romans 10, does not disagree with regeneration precedes faith.
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

 

[zoidar]

I won't say I understand all these views...
because I don't.
However, I do believe a man needs to be born again. Certainly if one is Spiritually dead he needs to be made alive some how... But what that includes or doesn't include I've yet to study..That's Why I said lets dwelve into it for discussion.
The way I view salvation is a continual life with God.
Why? Because when I'm in His presence I have a vibrant, joyful, peaceful life and I speak of what I know because of it.
And If I'm going to continue to have a vibrant life I must obey God.....that's truly the end all for me...is that I trust Him...and not on my ownb with the help of the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you, salvation is an ongoing relationship with Christ. The relationship has a start, and that start is called being born again.

 

[zoidar]

It is in fact the belief of the reformers, essentially calvinism.
Regeneration comes first is what they believed.
https://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith

I used to believe the other way, but found it not scriptural.

Thanks for the link! But in case of being regenerated before receiving Christ, it doesn't have to mean one is born again before receiving Christ. I believe even Calvin thought being born again is when you receive Christ?

 

[zoidar]

Just poof, you will be saved. Which is the being born again part, afterwards when you believe you are sealed.

How did you come to salvation?

 

[sdowney717]

How did you come to salvation?

Same way everyone does, it just clicked with me as the truth. It was not an instant realization, but there was a particular time in my teen years that I received Christ as my personal savior. I had been being taught by the Lord for some time prior, was not resistant to Him, just not committed, it was the right thing to do, I just knew in my heart Christ was the truth, real, genuine, the only way to God. Kept running into other Christians, seemed impossible to escape from them.
I also had quite a few spiritual experiences in my past, including one out of body experience in my freshman year at university. Everything I experienced kept pointing me deeper into the truth of Christ and the scriptures. I grew up presbyterian, moved into a grace type full gifts church and stayed with that type church for many years, but now I am more reformed in my thinking, emphasizing scriptures over feelings.

 

[corinth77777]

Thanks for the link! But in case of being regenerated before receiving Christ, it doesn't have to mean one is born again before receiving Christ. I believe even Calvin thought being born again is when you receive Christ?

....

It is in fact the belief of the reformers, essentially calvinism.
Regeneration comes first is what they believed.
https://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith

I used to believe the other way, but found it not scriptural.
We are saved by His mercy, hence total grace and love poured out onto us.
He did this by regenerating us, renewing us in the Holy Spirit.
As you can read, no mention of belief at all here!
Just poof, you will be saved. Which is the being born again part, afterwards when you believe you are sealed. All those regenerated are essentially saved, but have not made the good confession yet, but they WILL, people believe from the heart, the heart is what gets regenerated, so you can see what comes first..
Titus 3:4-6 English Standard Version (ESV)
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Romans 10, does not disagree with regeneration precedes faith.
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Not sure I agree totally with your interpretation.....Because this is said to them.........and surely it can be applied to us....if we know why it poured out on them. Also was He not speaking of Works of righteousness to Earn deliverance? And then look how it's poured out..."through Jesus"....what does through Jesus mean to you.....

 

[corinth77777]

....

Not sure I agree totally with your interpretation.....Because this is said to them.........and surely it can be applied to us....if we know why it poured out on them. Also was He not speaking of Works of righteousness to Earn deliverance? And then look how it's poured out..."through Jesus"....what does through Jesus mean to you.....

Plus I do believe he poured it out on believers....that was the key to John the Baptist preaching to believe on the one that would come after Him.

 

[sdowney717]

....

Not sure I agree totally with your interpretation.....Because this is said to them.........and surely it can be applied to us....if we know why it poured out on them. Also was He not speaking of Works of righteousness to Earn deliverance? And then look how it's poured out..."through Jesus"....what does through Jesus mean to you.....

'whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,'
The Holy Spirit God poured out on us, a Spirit of grace and mercy, to know the truth and be saved by Him revealing to us through His Spirit the truth which is in Christ, the hope of our calling.

God did this through Christ's work on our behalf. Christ is our great high priest, Christ ever lives to make intercession for us to the Father, so Christ's work enables God to legally work and be for us, not against us, by His atoning sacrifice for our sins. He is the propitiation for our sins, appeasing the wrath of God which was against us. That wrath is still against unbelievers who God does not foreknow as His children.
Romans 8 says this all much better than me. None of this is for those God did not foreknow in love as His children.


26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[g] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God's Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

 

[corinth77777]

I don't disagree with you that the time of conversion is known by God. I could argue that king Saul was chosen from the womb to salvation. I don't believe in perseverance of the saints.

But you do believe in perserverance of Christ? Smile

 

[zoidar]

Same way everyone does, it just clicked with me as the truth. It was not an instant realization, but there was a particular time in my teen years that I received Christ as my personal savior. I had been being taught by the Lord for some time prior, was not resistant to Him, just not committed, it was the right thing to do, I just knew in my heart Christ was the truth, real, genuine, the only way to God. Kept running into other Christians, seemed impossible to escape from them.
I also had quite a few spiritual experiences in my past, including one out of body experience in my freshman year at university. Everything I experienced kept pointing me deeper into the truth of Christ and the scriptures. I grew up presbyterian, moved into a grace type full gifts church and stayed with that type church for many years, but now I am more reformed in my thinking, emphasizing scriptures over feelings.

Thanks for sharing! I think every story is similar, yet different.

 

[sdowney717]

Plus I do believe he poured it out on believers....that was the key to John the Baptist preaching to believe on the one that would come after Him.

Here is also mention by Paul how His grace overflowed for him with the faith and love that are in Jesus Christ.
And paul says his conversion is an example for ALL those who are 'going to believe on Him for eternal life'
That life would be in the their future, so they had not yet experienced any belief at all. So God's grace was poured out on their behalf before their faith to save them, and so then they believe.

1 Timothy 1
12 I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, 13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.[d] Amen.

 

[zoidar]

Here is also mention by Paul how His grace overflowed for him with the faith and love that are in Jesus Christ.
And paul says his conversion is an example for ALL those who are 'going to believe on Him for eternal life'
That life would be in the their future, so they had not yet experienced any belief at all. So God's grace was poured out on their behalf before their faith to save them, and so then they believe.

1 Timothy 1
12 I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, 13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.[d] Amen.

When was Paul born again and saved? Can we be sure? I believe it was when he repented in prayer at the house of Judas. Possibly it was when Ananias put his hands on him.

Acts 9
10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying, 12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight.”

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.

 

[sdowney717]

Same relevant verse in 2 versions, showing 'who are going to believe on Him for eternal life.'
So that grace is an overflowing one for those people only.
Paul says he is the example of grace poured out, and all others who will believe .

NKJV
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.
KJV
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[sdowney717]

When was Paul born again and saved? Can we be sure? I believe it was when he repented in prayer at the house of Judas. Possibly it was when Ananias put his hands on him.

Acts 9
10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying, 12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight.”

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.

In Paul's case, am not sure, who can know except God?
Paul I am certain was already born again on the Damascus road.