Do your best to explain Romans 5

[sdowney717]

Nah, my view is that in your view God is a failure, since Christ came to conquer all evil of this world. That is what He intended to do and that is what He did, yet you believe He didn't overwin all forces of evil.

"He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him." (Colossians 2:15)

"Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Hebrews 2:14)

"Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out." (John 12:31)

That is a very strange response.
Overwin over all evil? Peter wrote after the resurrection, the devil goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

Hebrews 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

 

[zoidar]

That is a very strange response.
Overwin over all evil? Peter wrote after the resurrection, the devil goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

Hebrews 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

I believe the devil is defeated. If Christ didn't take all sins of the world on him, the devil is not fully defeated and would still be the legitimate owner of many people, and then God can do nothing about it.

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. (Heb 2:8)

Exactly! God put all in subjection under him through conquering all evil, every sin on the cross. How else could that have been done?

 

[FineLinen]

The message is for all men, but yes, not everyone is willing.

I wonder whether the Will of all little wills prevails?

Zoidar: you are a strong witness to the God who never fails, never!

 

[zoidar]

I wonder whether the Will of all little wills prevails?

Zoidar: you are a strong witness to the God who never fails, never!

I like your positive posts, about our great, loving God. God is LOVE! I'm not an universialist, though. I believe that we will be held responsible for what we do with the grace God gave us through the cross.

 

[FineLinen]

I like your positive posts, about our great, loving God. God is LOVE! I'm not an universialist, though. I believe that we will be held responsible for what we do with the grace God gave us through the cross.

My brother, there is no free ride, no get out of jail free card! The essence of our God is Love/Fire/Spirit/Light/Faithful/Saviour and all aspects of His glorious Presence are at work in bringing His desired will to completion!

 

[sdowney717]

I believe the devil is defeated. If Christ didn't take all sins of the world on him, the devil is not fully defeated and would still be the legitimate owner of many people, and then God can do nothing about it.

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. (Heb 2:8)

Exactly! God put all in subjection under him through conquering all evil, every sin on the cross. How else could that have been done?

The devil NEVER owned anybody.
God says before the cross of Christ, all souls are mine.

Ezekiel 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

Most everyone does not have the same religion within an umbrella of what is known as Christianity.
Some are so far out there, they do not know God, and do not obey the gospel, maybe they are many.

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.


Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

The reason people are deceived is they persist in their sin, they do not have God's anointing in them to know the truth because they are not born again, they can say spiritual sounding words, but inside they are dead.

 

[zoidar]

The devil NEVER owned anybody.
God says before the cross of Christ, all souls are mine.

Ezekiel 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

Most everyone does not have the same religion within an umbrella of what is known as Christianity.
Some are so far out there, they do not know God, and do not obey the gospel, maybe they are many.

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.


Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

The reason people are deceived is they persist in their sin, they do not have God's anointing in them to know the truth because they are not born again, they can say spiritual sounding words, but inside they are dead.

I believe the devil became the legal owner of man through the fall of Adam. Adam took the devil as his master. What Christ came to accomplish was win mankind back through the cross, so we can have Christ as our master.

 

[FineLinen]

I believe the devil became the legal owner of man through the fall of Adam. Adam took the devil as his master. What Christ came to accomplish was win mankind back through the cross, so we can have Christ as our master.

Are you stating the Last Adam exceeds in scope the effects of Adam 1?

"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

 

[corinth77777]

So you believe natural men seek after God?
Natural men, looking at what God says about them, do NOT seek Him and no one understands spiritual things naturally.
That is part of why the Father alone accomplishes a person's salvation.
Many people, probably most do not believe in being saved by grace, they also add in their efforts to seek and understand God, which then it is not grace, their salvation is of themselves.
Simply most think all someone needs to do is believe and if they do not believe they are, stupid, uneducated, stubborn, resistant to God's wooing them, have not heard the gospel, etc...
But the truth is 100%, no one seeks God or understands, al have turned aside.


Romans 3
All Have Sinned
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

I think that words should be opened up before we we frame them and use them as proof in a closed box.

Also our logic just can't be contained to our 1 way thoughts alone. For example everyone wearing red is going to Disneyland....So we can conclude all the guess at Disneyland are wearing red. Until we find out that "everyone" was pertaining to all those at First Baptist church who got on the bus. Now we can conclude everyone at First Baptist church at Disneyland is wearing red. But that's not true either because 4 other Baptist churches went and they are wearing blue. Plus the Diver that was already on the bus a member of First Baptist was at Disneyland and He was wearing Yellow. So if we narrow it down we can conclude all those who got on the bus at First Baptist Church in Duarte were wearing red at Disneyland.....etc

Why do I say this? Because questions are sometimes ask only from our own box of views. And many times are merely circular in argument..

For example look at the word salvation.
Many people only believe this word is pertaining to only what happens after physical death. However, salvation means deliverer, deliverence, protector rescuer...etc
Yet a person can be delivered from more than one thing.

I said all that to remind you of what's under my name. I am a learner. I do not take all scriptures at face value nor do I wand to be boxed in....For part of tranformation which is part of salvation is conditional on our part. And part of that transformation is to take that which is natural to connect it with God.

Also I do kind of lean toward the King James version....And so in your question I would take into consideration what "seeketh" means as is it talking about accountability, does it mean "continually" seeks? I don't know. Yet and still although I believe Everything is created through Him, scripture mentions condition....Example: Jesus became the SOURCE of our salvation as the Ark was the source of their deliverance in Noah's Day....But alone it saves no one....They must get in the Ark. Did they need to stay there? Anyway those are just my thoughts for now.

 

[sdowney717]

I believe the devil became the legal owner of man through the fall of Adam. Adam took the devil as his master. What Christ came to accomplish was win mankind back through the cross, so we can have Christ as our master.

Well then you believe a lie, of the devil, as he is the deceiver of all mankind.

Psalm 24:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)
.
1 The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness,
The world and those who dwell therein.
2 For He has founded it upon the seas,
And established it upon the waters.

That is the problem with deception, those believing it can not believe they are wrong.
Even when shown in scripture they will not believe.

 

[corinth77777]

Well then you believe a lie, of the devil, as he is the deceiver of all mankind.

Psalm 24:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)
.
1 The earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness,
The world and those who dwell therein.
2 For He has founded it upon the seas,
And established it upon the waters.

That is the problem with deception, those believing it can not believe they are wrong.
Even when shown in scripture they will not believe.

Everything He/She said can be backed up with scripture

 

[sdowney717]

Everything He/She said can be backed up with scripture

The devil can also quote scripture, besides in your post #449 you did not want to be put in a box, bound by scripture. Your experiential religion of the senses will not lead you to the truth. Take a little scripture and a little talk with people, then a little imagination of the mind and then you will be rejecting the scripture, what it actually says, and making up stories and lies, and believing it very strongly with steadfast determination too..

'I said all that to remind you of what's under my name. I am a learner. I do not take all scriptures at face value nor do I wand to be boxed in...'

What does God say? The word of the Lord is perfect, proven. That means true.
So if God says all the people of the world are His as in 'all souls are mine' , that means none of them are owned by Satan.

Psalm 18:30 As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him.

But see I expect none of what I just said to actually make you change your mind. People are locked in by their theology and that is also of God I think, for the day of judgement. It takes an act of God to force a man to repent and change his ways of thinking

For example here,
2 Timothy 2:24-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

 

[corinth77777]

But who is Christ speaking to , unbelievers??
I can see by what you posted you do not believe the scripture, scripture says no one seeks for God.
You do not believe 'we are saved by grace', you believe in a grace that you add on things about yourself to bring about your salvation. Grace is not man seeking God.
But see, if a man is born again first, without which the man can not perceive the kingdom of God, then it is entirely 100% all grace that you are saved, not of your ability or works, nothing of the man, all of God. You believe man works with God synergistically, I say the outcome is predetermined by God, not man who He saves. God when He makes you born anew, you are changed and taught by Him and all of those born anew eventually come to Christ, just as Christ says in John 3 and John 6.

In Matthew 6, Christ is not preaching to unbelievers telling them to seek Him-God. GOD IS NOT THE FATHER OF UNBELIEVERS
30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and green and tomorrow is tossed into the furnace, will He not much more surely clothe you, O you of little faith?

31 Therefore do not worry and be anxious, saying, What are we going to have to eat? or, What are we going to have to drink? or, What are we going to have to wear?

32 For the Gentiles (heathen) wish for and crave and diligently seek all these things, and your heavenly Father knows well that you need them all.

33 But seek ([z]aim at and strive after) first of all His kingdom and His righteousness ([aa]His way of doing and being right), and then all these things [ab]taken together will be given you besides.

34 So do not worry or be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will have worries and anxieties of its own. Sufficient for each day is its own trouble.

But who is Christ speaking to , unbelievers??

Also, aren't man without excuse because God's very nature is seen in nature itself?
I can see by what you posted you do not believe the scripture, scripture says no one seeks for God.

That would be jumping to your own conclusion
You do not believe 'we are saved by grace', you believe in a grace that you add on things about yourself to bring about your salvation.
Yes, I believe we are saved by Grace through the faithfulness or faith of Christ.
Yet where is this Grace found? And what are ye saved from in this passage.
If we are saved through His faithfulness
As the Ark was a faithful source of rescue...what did all those who died in the flood need to do in order to be "saved" from the flood? Did God give them Grace? When Noah preached for 120 something years?

Yes, I believe there is effort involved in salvation[being resqued,or life with God]...but not and effort that Earns salvation, for I already know what Christ Did on the cross for me I did not do nor deserve ....He became the eternal "SOURCE" of salvation for all who believe.

Dallas Willard state's it like this, "Grace is not opposed to effort but earning"

Grace is not man seeking God.

As Dallas Willard described it...and I am not saying it word for word: Grace is God doing what we cannot do on our own...So Just because God gives us unmerritted favor....[not working to earn favor] doesn't mean that Grace is not for the help of getting back up to walk in Him.

But see, if a man is born again first, without which the man can not perceive the kingdom of God, then it is entirely 100% all grace that you are saved, not of your ability or works, nothing of the man, all of God. You believe man works with God synergistically, I say the outcome is predetermined by God, not man who He saves. God when He makes you born anew, you are changed and taught by Him and all of those born anew eventually come to Christ, just as Christ says in John 3 and John 6.
I am not sure what you mean here...but I need to go to Sunday School....
But I believe it's how you define things... and what you believe about how you defined these terms....But Yes a man needs to be born again...
How this comes into play should be the question.

 

[corinth77777]

The devil can also quote scripture, besides in your post #449 you did not want to be put in a box, bound by scripture. Your experiential religion of the senses will not lead you to the truth. Take a little scripture and a little talk with people, then a little imagination of the mind and then you will be rejecting the scripture, what it actually says, and making up stories and lies, and believing it very strongly with steadfast determination too..

'I said all that to remind you of what's under my name. I am a learner. I do not take all scriptures at face value nor do I wand to be boxed in...'

What does God say? The word of the Lord is perfect, proven. That means true.
So if God says all the people of the world are His as in 'all souls are mine' , that means none of them are owned by Satan.

Psalm 18:30 As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him.

But see I expect none of what I just said to actually make you change your mind. People are locked in by their theology and that is also of God I think, for the day of judgement. It takes an act of God to force a man to repent and change his ways of thinking

For example here,
2 Timothy 2:24-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

It's not what you say....It's your interpretation ....The word is True, but that doesn't make your understanding of it true... Lets Dwelve into the truth and leave out the remarks of one being deceived...I believe God would honor doing and saying what is right.

 

[sdowney717]

But who is Christ speaking to , unbelievers??

Also, aren't man without excuse because God's very nature is seen in nature itself?
I can see by what you posted you do not believe the scripture, scripture says no one seeks for God.

That would be jumping to your own conclusion
You do not believe 'we are saved by grace', you believe in a grace that you add on things about yourself to bring about your salvation.
Yes, I believe we are saved by Grace through the faithfulness or faith of Christ.
Yet where is this Grace found? And what are ye saved from in this passage.
If we are saved through His faithfulness
As the Ark was a faithful source of rescue...what did all those who died in the flood need to do in order to be "saved" from the flood? Did God give them Grace? When Noah preached for 120 something years?

Yes, I believe there is effort involved in salvation[being resqued,or life with God]...but not and effort that Earns salvation, for I already know what Christ Did on the cross for me I did not do nor deserve ....He became the eternal "SOURCE" of salvation for all who believe.

Dallas Willard state's it like this, "Grace is not opposed to effort but earning"

Grace is not man seeking God.

As Dallas Willard described it...and I am not saying it word for word: Grace is God doing what we cannot do on our own...So Just because God gives us unmerritted favor....[not working to earn favor] doesn't mean that Grace is not for the help of getting back up to walk in Him.

But see, if a man is born again first, without which the man can not perceive the kingdom of God, then it is entirely 100% all grace that you are saved, not of your ability or works, nothing of the man, all of God. You believe man works with God synergistically, I say the outcome is predetermined by God, not man who He saves. God when He makes you born anew, you are changed and taught by Him and all of those born anew eventually come to Christ, just as Christ says in John 3 and John 6.
I am not sure what you mean here...but I need to go to Sunday School....
But I believe it's how you define things... and what you believe about how you defined these terms....But Yes a man needs to be born again...
How this comes into play should be the question.

Jesus called the devil, a liar, thief, murderer, destroyer. Satan does not own anything, but Satan can steal things.

Jesus said in John 3:3
3 Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God.

That tells us a man must be born again before he can perceive the kingdom of God. Otherwise spiritual things of God, as Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 so says, are foolishness to him, and no man in their 'right' mind is going to believe in foolish things.

12 Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.

13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].

14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he [g]examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].

Right there in those two passages are pointing out the natural man, will not know Christ or believe, or receive or anything of God. And you must be born anew to see, which means to perceive God's kingdom. And that simply points out it is God's choice to whom he will make them born of God and not mans will of the mind. And therefore you have the tremendous controversy because lots of people don't like to think God is in control of their destiny, they want to play God themselves.
And so then there really hangs election, foreknowing, predestination, calling, since the natural (CARNAL) mind is at enmity with God and can not be submitted to God's law..which all people are natural, carnal minds before they are born again. So they will not be receiving Christ as LORD, unless they are born again (regenerated )first.

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 8, amplified version, to live according to the SPirit means such persons have been born again.

5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.

6 Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that [f]comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].

7 [That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God’s Law; indeed it cannot.

8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.

9 But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].

 

[corinth77777]

Jesus called the devil, a liar, thief, murderer, destroyer. Satan does not own anything, but Satan can steal things.

Jesus said in John 3:3
3 Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God.

That tells us a man must be born again before he can perceive the kingdom of God. Otherwise spiritual things of God, as Paul in 1 Corinthians 2 so says, are foolishness to him, and no man in their 'right' mind is going to believe in foolish things.

12 Now we have not received the spirit [that belongs to] the world, but the [Holy] Spirit Who is from God, [given to us] that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts [of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly] bestowed on us by God.

13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].

14 But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

15 But the spiritual man tries all things [he [g]examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things], yet is himself to be put on trial and judged by no one [he can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him].

Right there in those two passages are pointing out the natural man, will not know Christ or believe, or receive or anything of God. And you must be born anew to see, which means to perceive God's kingdom. And that simply points out it is God's choice to whom he will make them born of God and not mans will of the mind. And therefore you have the tremendous controversy because lots of people don't like to think God is in control of their destiny, they want to play God themselves.
And so then there really hangs election, foreknowing, predestination, calling, since the natural (CARNAL) mind is at enmity with God and can not be submitted to God's law..which all people are natural, carnal minds before they are born again. So they will not be receiving Christ as LORD, unless they are born again (regenerated )first.

So then let Jesus Judge who is deceived...

 

[corinth77777]

Romans 8, amplified version, to live according to the SPirit means such persons have been born again.

5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.

6 Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that [f]comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].

7 [That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God’s Law; indeed it cannot.

8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.

9 But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].

What is the order of being born from above according to scripture...and examples.....order

 

[sdowney717]

What is the order of being born from above according to scripture...and examples.....order

John 3:3, and that one verse is sufficient. to show the truth.
3 Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God

The word 'see' means this here and you can 'see' then that no one who is NOT born again would be interested in Christ whatsoever from a point of Him being God come in the flesh to save them as the Son of God..

Only those born of God will be wanting to receive Christ as the Lord God.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1492&t=KJV

1. to see
   1. to perceive with the eyes
      
      
   2. to perceive by any of the senses
      
      
   3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
      
      
   4. to see
      1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
         
         
      2. to pay attention, observe
         
         
      3. to see about something
         1. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
      4. to inspect, examine
         
         
      5. to look at, behold
   5. to experience any state or condition
      
      
   6. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2. to know
   1. to know of anything
      
      
   2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
      1. of any fact
         
         
      2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
         
         
      3. to know how, to be skilled in
   3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

 

[sdowney717]

Another verse is John 1, which proves they are not born again of their will, not of their choice, it was God's choice to make them born again, and that is why they receive Christ as Lord.

12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
]