Do your best to explain Romans 5

[zoidar]

In Paul's case, am not sure, who can know except God?
Paul I am certain was already born again on the Damascus road.

Do you mean before his encounter with Jesus?

 

[sdowney717]

Do you mean before his encounter with Jesus?

Yes, I think before.
Christ did say this, Paul was kicking against the goads, Paul was being resistant.
Being born again is not salvation just part of the process.
God had to get very firm with Paul, hence the extreme situation.
Paul had to believe to be sealed into his salvation. This is a good example of irresistible grace in action. Salvation for Paul was never in doubt.

Acts 9:4-6 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. [a]It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

 

[corinth77777]

'whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,'
The Holy Spirit God poured out on us, a Spirit of grace and mercy, to know the truth and be saved by Him revealing to us through His Spirit the truth which is in Christ, the hope of our calling.

God did this through Christ's work on our behalf. Christ is our great high priest, Christ ever lives to make intercession for us to the Father, so Christ's work enables God to legally work and be for us, not against us, by His atoning sacrifice for our sins. He is the propitiation for our sins, appeasing the wrath of God which was against us. That wrath is still against unbelievers who God does not foreknow as His children.
Romans 8 says this all much better than me. None of this is for those God did not foreknow in love as His children.


26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[g] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God's Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Verse 4, " but after that"

'whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,'
The Holy Spirit God poured out on us, a Spirit of grace and mercy, to know the truth and be saved by Him revealing to us through His Spirit the truth which is in Christ, the hope of our calling.

God did this through Christ's work on our behalf. Christ is our great high priest, Christ ever lives to make intercession for us to the Father, so Christ's work enables God to legally work and be for us, not against us, by His atoning sacrifice for our sins. He is the propitiation for our sins, appeasing the wrath of God which was against us. That wrath is still against unbelievers who God does not foreknow as His children.
Romans 8 says this all much better than me. None of this is for those God did not foreknow in love as His children.


26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[g] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God's Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Question: Did He pour this Grace and Mercy upon all men or only the elect?
So are you saying all people were given the Holy Spirit upon but not yet sealed at that moment? Therefore eventually all men will be saved? Because He poured it out on all men? confused

It is in fact the belief of the reformers, essentially calvinism.
Regeneration comes first is what they believed.
https://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith

I used to believe the other way, but found it not scriptural.
We are saved by His mercy, hence total grace and love poured out onto us.
He did this by regenerating us, renewing us in the Holy Spirit.
As you can read, no mention of belief at all here!
Just poof, you will be saved. Which is the being born again part, afterwards when you believe you are sealed. All those regenerated are essentially saved, but have not made the good confession yet, but they WILL, people believe from the heart, the heart is what gets regenerated, so you can see what comes first..
Titus 3:4-6 English Standard Version (ESV)
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Romans 10, does not disagree with regeneration precedes faith.
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

So are you saying all men are regenerated so all men will be saved?

 

[corinth77777]

Here is also mention by Paul how His grace overflowed for him with the faith and love that are in Jesus Christ.
And paul says his conversion is an example for ALL those who are 'going to believe on Him for eternal life'
That life would be in the their future, so they had not yet experienced any belief at all. So God's grace was poured out on their behalf before their faith to save them, and so then they believe.

1 Timothy 1
12 I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, 13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.[d] Amen.

Where is the Grace given from? The Grace is found in Christ also Mercy...

 

[mark kennedy]

I don't disagree with you that the time of conversion is known by God. I could argue that king Saul was chosen from the womb to salvation. I don't believe in perseverance of the saints.

I don't know about king Saul, maybe but that sounds speculative. I really don't about the perseverance of the saints but I think conversion is a one time event and sanctification must follow. Since were talking about Romans 5 I think the message of Romans 5, its pretty clear, in Adam all die but in Christ all live. All of us are under a curse because of the sin of Adam but not all are in Christ. We do well to remeber, that's the core issue here.

 

[sdowney717]

Verse 4, " but after that"

Question: Did He pour this Grace and Mercy upon all men or only the elect?
So are you saying all people were given the Holy Spirit upon but not yet sealed at that moment? Therefore eventually all men will be saved? Because He poured it out on all men? confused

So are you saying all men are regenerated so all men will be saved?

He pours out His mercy regenerating only those He knows will believe, as they are His elect whom He foreknew.
They are not given the Holy Spirit when regenerated, that only come with their belief when they are 'sealed in the Holy Spirit'
Not all men receive that mercy from God, so not all men will be saved.

 

[sdowney717]

I don't know about king Saul, maybe but that sounds speculative. I really don't about the perseverance of the saints but I think conversion is a one time event and sanctification must follow. Since were talking about Romans 5 I think the message of Romans 5, its pretty clear, in Adam all die but in Christ all live. All of us are under a curse because of the sin of Adam but not all are in Christ. We do well to remeber, that's the core issue here.

Yes, in Christ all shall be made alive.
Some universalists take that so way out of context saying God will save all men.
But only those in Christ are alive, everyone else is dead as the dodo bird. They are the walking dead, and do not know they are dead. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.

 

[corinth77777]

Well I'm going to give a thought.

I believe.... this: we look to Christ in recognition of who He is in order to believe...[put trust in]

Once believed upon you will be renewed.

The washing of regeneration is in Jesus's Sacrifice and the renewal of the Holy Spirit is in His resurrction.

Since He is the source of deliverance I believe it's through His Life.

We look to Him for who He is by the revelation of God in that
we are cleansed through His sacrifice in order to obey the Spirit of life where by we are renewed.

So in my opinion...when it says we are not saved by anything we have done- to earn salvation. That means nothing we done added to earn Jesus becoming the source of salvation.. Saved here in my opinion is speaking of being forgiven of sins and brought into the body of Christ by the Spirit. What are my thoughts on what He pour out of His Spirit; blood and water. He sprinkles us clean in order to be connected with the Father. Who do I think He pours it on; all who believe on His name or look to Him as the deliverer. How do I believe we are justified through His faithfulness, when? When we trust Him. And continually so by continued faith.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yes, in Christ all shall be made alive.
Some universalists take that so way out of context saying God will save all men.
But only those in Christ are alive, everyone else is dead as the dodo bird. They are the walking dead, and do not know they are dead. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.

Not nessacarily, there is a considerable number of undecided that will come through final judgment, after the millennial reign of Christ. While not in Christ, they do not join the children of perdition in hell, or the lake of fire. They to must be the righteousness of God in Christ but that will happen at the very end, sometimes it's not their fault, probably never had the opportunity to hear the gospel.

 

[zoidar]

Yes, I think before.
Christ did say this, Paul was kicking against the goads, Paul was being resistant.
Being born again is not salvation just part of the process.
God had to get very firm with Paul, hence the extreme situation.
Paul had to believe to be sealed into his salvation. This is a good example of irresistible grace in action. Salvation for Paul was never in doubt.

Acts 9:4-6 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. [a]It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

He pours out His mercy regenerating only those He knows will believe, as they are His elect whom He foreknew.
They are not given the Holy Spirit when regenerated, that only come with their belief when they are 'sealed in the Holy Spirit'
Not all men receive that mercy from God, so not all men will be saved.

"This is a good example of irresistible grace in action."

"He pours out His mercy regenerating only those He knows will believe, as they are His elect whom He foreknew. "

That is a lot of 1500AD Calvinistic theology and speculations.

 

[zoidar]

All of us are under a curse because of the sin of Adam but not all are in Christ. We do well to remeber, that's the core issue here.

True!

 

[Dan1988]

Verse 4, " but after that"

Question: Did He pour this Grace and Mercy upon all men or only the elect?
So are you saying all people were given the Holy Spirit upon but not yet sealed at that moment? Therefore eventually all men will be saved? Because He poured it out on all men? confused

So are you saying all men are regenerated so all men will be saved?

I think he believes that "He poured

"This is a good example of irresistible grace in action."

"He pours out His mercy regenerating only those He knows will believe, as they are His elect whom He foreknew. "

That is a lot of 1500AD Calvinistic theology and speculations.

Calvin and Arminius divided the Church into two camps.

Calvinists believe that they were predestined to be saved before God made the world. Arminians believe we are saved by making a choice to believe in Christ.

Both of these views can be defended using the Bible, all Christians fall into one of the two groups. This issue has been hotly debated for the past 550 years, with no clear winner so everyone chooses the position which sounds the best

 

[sdowney717]

Not nessacarily, there is a considerable number of undecided that will come through final judgment, after the millennial reign of Christ. While not in Christ, they do not join the children of perdition in hell, or the lake of fire. They to must be the righteousness of God in Christ but that will happen at the very end, sometimes it's not their fault, probably never had the opportunity to hear the gospel.

For all men who have never heard, God judges them by the gospel of Christ.
Jesus tells us He is the resurrection and the life, no one comes to the Father without Him.
But since I am calvinist, I know God can make anyone live mongerstically, including infants and young children..
Romans 2 does not mean automatic possible salvation, to be judged by Christ's gospel means exactly that. If they are not born again they can not have life. The law does not save, the law was a ministry of condemnation.

15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

By grace are you saved, not by works of the law.

 

[zoidar]

I think he believes that "He poured

Calvin and Arminius divided the Church into two camps.

Calvinists believe that they were predestined to be saved before God made the world. Arminians believe we are saved by making a choice to believe in Christ.

Both of these views can be defended using the Bible, all Christians fall into one of the two groups. This issue has been hotly debated for the past 550 years, with no clear winner so everyone chooses the position which sounds the best

Either God limits the atonement to His choice appart from man, or man limits the atonement by hardening of heart and turning away from Him.

 

[zoidar]

Post deleted.

 

[FineLinen]

Yes, in Christ all shall be made alive.
Some universalists take that so way out of context saying God will save all men.
But only those in Christ are alive, everyone else is dead as the dodo bird. They are the walking dead, and do not know they are dead. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead.

My friend: the equation is straight forward, the same polus made sinners is the polus made righteous. The "many"= the polus. The same is true concerning the all dying in Adam1! Profound math, profound outcome!

“Though we are incomplete, God loves us completely. Though we are imperfect, He loves us perfectly. Though we may feel lost and without compass, God's love encompasses us completely. ... He loves every one of us, even those who are flawed, rejected, awkward, sorrowful, or broken.”
― Dieter F. Uchtdorf

 

[FineLinen]

Either God limits the atonement to His choice appart from man, or man limits the atonement by hardening of hearts and turning away from Him.

I just love the concept of anything "limited" in relation to the Unlimited One!

 

[corinth77777]

True!

I just love the concept of anything "limited" in relation to the Unlimited One!

I've heard that God can do anything but fail, lie, and stop being God.
But man are given free will .

 

[corinth77777]

My friend: the equation is straight forward, the same polus made sinners is the polus made righteous. The "many"= the polus. The same is true concerning the all dying in Adam1! Profound math, profound outcome!

“Though we are incomplete, God loves us completely. Though we are imperfect, He loves us perfectly. Though we may feel lost and without compass, God's love encompasses us completely. ... He loves every one of us, even those who are flawed, rejected, awkward, sorrowful, or broken.”
― Dieter F. Uchtdorf

All are made alive...because arn't all resurrected ? But to what end?

 

[corinth77777]

All are made alive...because arn't all resurrected ? But to what end?

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.