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Do your best to explain Romans 5
- Thread starter zoidar
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All receive God's general revelation, the, 'light that gives light to everyone who comes into the world' (John 1:9), concerning God's divine attributes and eternal nature. (Eph. 1:21). Indeed the Gentiles without the Law, could do the things written in the Law based on the witness of conscience (Rom. 2:15). Those who sin under the Law are judged by the Law and all who don't have the Law are judged apart from the Law but all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
That's not what I'm talking about, I was talking about the first resurrection when the church is raised at the return of Christ and rule with him 1000 years. After the dragons final rebellion, at the Great White Throne judgment the books are opened and whoever is not found in the Lambs book of life is cast into the lake of fire.
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Yup! I cannot discuss further in a conventional part of Theology. For that you will need to join a couple of us on "Controversial Theology". My friend and brother translates your Scripture thus>>>>>>>
http://www.greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/
“Don’t you folks be constantly amazed at this, because an hour is repeatedly (habitually; continually) coming within which ALL MEN (Everyone) – the ones within the tombs (graves) WILL HEAR His voice,
29. “and they will come out: the ones doing virtue (making or constructing good) into a resurrection of Life; the ones practicing careless (base, worthless, cheap, slight, paltry, inefficient, thoughtless, common or mean) things into a resurrection of separation and evaluation for a decision (judgment).”
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Yup! And KJV stands alone! Very much alone!
Jesus said to them, "I assure you that the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. What the Son does is always modelled on what the Father does, for the Father loves the Son and shows him everything that he does himself, Yes, and he will show him even greater things than these to fill you with wonder. For just as the Father raises the dead and makes them live, so does the Son give life to any man he chooses. The Father is no man's judge: he has put judgment entirely into the Son's hands, so that all men may honour the Son equally with the Father. The man who does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him. I solemnly assure you that the man who hears what I have to say and believes in the one who has sent me has eternal life. He does not have to face judgment; he has already passed from death into life. Yes, I assure you that a time is coming, in fact has already come, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and when they have heard it they will live! For just as the Father has life in himself, so by the Father's gift, the Son also has life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is Son of Man. No, do not be surprised - the time is coming when all those who are dead and buried will hear his voice and out they will come - those who have done right will rise again to life, but those who have done wrong will rise to face judgment!
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Rotherham's Translation=
Verily, verily, I say unto you: He that heareth, my word, and believeth in him that sent me, hath life age-abiding, and, into judgment, cometh not, but hath passed over, out of death into life. Verily, verily, I say unto you: There cometh an hour, and now is, when, the dead, shall hearken unto the voice of the Son of God, and, they who have hearkened, shall live. For, just as, the Father, hath life, in himself, in like manner, unto the Son also, hath he given, life, to have, in himself; And, authority, hath he given him, to be executing, judgment,—because, Son of Man, is he! Do not be marveling at this: because there come an hour, in which, all they in the tombs, shall hearken unto his voice, and shall come forth,—they who, the good things, have done, unto a resurrection, of life; but, they who the corrupt things, have practised, unto a resurrection, of judgment.
Verily, verily, I say unto you: He that heareth, my word, and believeth in him that sent me, hath life age-abiding, and, into judgment, cometh not, but hath passed over, out of death into life. Verily, verily, I say unto you: There cometh an hour, and now is, when, the dead, shall hearken unto the voice of the Son of God, and, they who have hearkened, shall live. For, just as, the Father, hath life, in himself, in like manner, unto the Son also, hath he given, life, to have, in himself; And, authority, hath he given him, to be executing, judgment,—because, Son of Man, is he! Do not be marveling at this: because there come an hour, in which, all they in the tombs, shall hearken unto his voice, and shall come forth,—they who, the good things, have done, unto a resurrection, of life; but, they who the corrupt things, have practised, unto a resurrection, of judgment.
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Acts 10:35
"But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him."
This brings me to a thought how Jesus delivered people even before He went to the cross.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Yes, much like Romans 2 says
the gentiles who have not the written TORAH, yet DO what TORAH says,
are JUSTIFIED,
while those who have the written TORAH, but DO NOT DO what TORAH says,
are NOT JUSTIFIED.
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Not sure it said they were justified..
But that wouldn't they also be since they did what was required of the circumcised...but I must read it to be sure...
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The lost are so lost that they cannot be saved by their own actions or the actions of any other man.
It is impossible to save them apart from Jesus.
As impossibly lost as they are, we are saved to a degree beyond their "lostness."
If they are impossibly lost and we are more saved than they are lost... just how saved it that?
Rom 5:
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
It is impossible to save them apart from Jesus.
As impossibly lost as they are, we are saved to a degree beyond their "lostness."
If they are impossibly lost and we are more saved than they are lost... just how saved it that?
Rom 5:
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
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If only we could do something about our lostness! "You did not choose Me"
"I chose you."
You must be a believer in the "much more"of the Master! Me too.
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Every religion is essentially the same except for Christianity, it is the only one that claims that all other religions are false. Jesus Christ said, He is the only way to God. He also said that all those who believe in Him will be saved.
Christ didn't say we needed to do anything apart from believe in Him for our salvation, every other religion says you must do good works to be saved. So Christianity is unique, Christ will not share His glory with any guru or other spiritual leaders.
Christians are forbidden from looking into other religions or take any advice form spiritual leaders
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No they are NOT justified.
Only those who have faith in Christ are justified, why are you promoting works righteousness apart from knowing Jesus Christ?
God will judge the secrets in the hearts of all men by Christ's gospel, as I pointed this out to you on another thread about those who have never heard the gospel, they are still judged by the gospel of Christ as Romans 2 says.
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The Bible doctrine of election and predestination, have been rejected by the vast majority of Christians.
Most believe that we are saved when we decide to believe in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. They say that God looked into the future and saw who would believe and who wouldn't.
I personally believe God chose to save a certain number, called the elect of God. Every one of them will respond by believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ, those who are not chosen will never truly believe.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
If you ignore God's Word instead of learning from Him from every word that proceeds from His Mouth (as His Word Says),
then you won't learn anything correctly.
I quoted Romans 2. You don't like it nor agree. Oh well.
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The closing verses of Romans 5 have been the standing perplexity of theologians.
Yet nowhere has the Holy Spirit written for our learning plainer conclusions, and never has tradition been blinder than in the treatment of this magnificent passage. Believe the passage as it stands, and the divine logic is irresistible.
It contains a comparison between the first and the last Adam. What the first Adam was, and is, to the whole human race, the last Adam is, and will be also, to the whole human race.
This is the simple and grand logic of verses 18 and 19. "Therefore as by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation, EVEN SO by the righteousness of One, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Then there follows a reiteration of the comparison with its Divine logic, so that the fact might be stated again, not only as a climax in the purpose of redemption, but as a future goal in the history of the working out of the redemption of all men. "For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall the many be made righteous."The insertion of the definite article, which the Authorized Version unwarrantably leaves out before the word "many" in each case, emphasizes the fact for which it was originally placed there, viz.-- that the company of the righteous is identical in person and number with the company of the sinners to which the passage refers.
So that we have two phrases in these two verses, by which we can establish beyond question the identity of those under discussion. These two phrases are "ALL MEN," and "THE MANY." Of this company it is declared in the first place, that "all men" and "the many" were made sinners and come into condemnation; and in the second place, that "all men" and "the many" will be made righteous, not simply saved but made righteous. If this plain simple language-- and God could not have made it plainer-- does not mean what it says, but infers something quite the opposite, so that the comparison used is not a true one, then we may well pause to ask how ever it came about that on such a subject, and at such a climax in his argument, Paul did not tell us exactly what he meant. -A.E. Saxby-
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- Sep 18, 2010
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Rom 2
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
"12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
Yeshuaslavejeff is right! What Paul is saying is not that gentiles can be saved without faith. He is saying when the gentiles have faith, they have the power through the Spirit to keep the Law. Which law? The law that is written in their hearts. The Jews who have the whole Mosaic Law and don't keep it won't be saved. But anyone, Jew or Greek, who by faith and Holy Spirit do the deeds of the Law, the heart of the Law, keep the ten commandments, will be saved. There is no partiality with God.
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NO salvation here in v12-15, no one can keep the law whether written in the heart or not.
And it says they will be judged by the LAW written in their heart.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
'14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law '
Amazing how many echo and believe and affirm the false teachings of another.
Specifically v15 mentions the 'work of the law'. By work of the law no one will be justified.
Faith in WHAT?? Your supporting salvation for someone who has no faith in Christ. A big red 'X' for you.
ANTICHRIST belief system at work. You guys are heretical.
Any time in scripture in the NT, you read about work of the law, it is negative for salvation.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
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