Do your best to explain Romans 5

[LadyCrosstalk]

Humanity’s Sin Through Adam.​

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned — 13 for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law. 14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.

Once again, read the passage as it is written and it is not unclear, at least not too unclear.

Remembering that this is a letter to the Roman Christians in which Paul is introducing himself this section (verses 12 through 14) is about death and sin and its remedy.

Paul starts by pointing out that death is the common lot of human beings. And since sin is the cause of death Paul starts by noting that sin is the common lot of human beings. Eve and then Adam sinned and the consequence was that death came into the world because of their sin. We're all descended from Adam (and Eve) so we all die too. We die because we sin. We sin because it is now the common inheritance of humanity to sin. It is what our story began with, it is a sin in the origin of humanity and that is why it is called "Original sin". Original in this phrase means "according to the origin" that is to say it is about how we started as a race. We inherit this origin and hence we inherit the sin with which it all started. And so we die because human death was the result of the first human sin. That is the point Paul makes in verse 12.

In verses 13 & 14 Paul make an observation as an aside. He observes that the Law didn't exist when Sin came into the world and nevertheless Adam and Eve died and so did all their children and so on for all the generations until the Law was finally given and, of course, after the Law was given human beings continued to die because they continued to sin.

In verse 14 Paul make a remark about "the one who was to come". We know he is writing about Jesus Christ. The one who was to come is Jesus. That is how Paul ties this part of the chapter back to the first part (verses 1 to 11).

No, we die because sin came into the world (where there was formerly innocence) and death entered the world with it. It did not just affect humans you know--Paul notes that ALL of Creation was subject to death because of the curse God placed on it as a result of Adam and Eve's sin. No, we do NOT inherit sin--the Bible makes that clear in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible tells us that the sons are not responsible for the father's sins nor is a father responsible for a son's sins--"that the soul who sins is the one who will die". In the New Testament, we are told in Romans 9:11 that being not yet born, before they had done anything good or bad...

And we know, from our reading of the Book of Revelation, that the condemned are condemned on the basis of their un-forgiven sin. The only foregiveness is through being washed clean through the Blood of Jesus. But babies and young children have not sinned. Therefore, they are not condemned, with or without baptism.

 

[FineLinen]

No, we die because sin came into the world (where there was formerly innocence) and death entered the world with it. It did not just affect humans you know--Paul notes that ALL of Creation was subject to death because of the curse God placed on it as a result of Adam and Eve's sin. No, we do NOT inherit sin--the Bible makes that clear in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible tells us that the sons are not responsible for the father's sins nor is a father responsible for a son's sins--"that the soul who sins is the one who will die". In the New Testament, we are told in Romans 9:11 that being not yet born, before they had done anything good or bad...

And we know, from our reading of the Book of Revelation, that the condemned are condemned on the basis of their un-forgiven sin. The only foregiveness is through being washed clean through the Blood of Jesus. But babies and young children have not sinned. Therefore, they are not condemned, with or without baptism.

 

[FineLinen]

Could you please tell me what is the cut-off point for the age of accountability rule? Would mentally incompetent qualify? What is the line above which no person qualifies under the "rule" & why?

 

[Kaon]

The Redeemer vindicated the sons of men who had always been sons of men through His perfection in following the commandments of the Most High God - even as a son of man Himself.

The Redeemer proved that the Most High God's commandments were not, therefore, too hard for man, and that (of course,) His law is justified as Good for the son of man.


The law - in humans/corrupt individuals - will never stop condemning and highlighting the degeneracy of the son of man. And, our singular transgression of any singular law delivers us into Death.

Clearly, all sons of man are the slaves of death. And yet, the fact that the Redeemer perfectly executed Perfection as a son of man, and because He chose to lay down His life when by Universal Law He was never sentenced to Death via His perfection, He makes a Way for anyone who wants to be Alive in Him.

 

[ortho]

Hello, Romans 5:1 is one of the rock solid proofs of eternal security in Christ. To be forgiven ALL sins as Colossians 2:13 says is only half of what God does for the believer, He also justifies the believer, declaring him or her as just as Christ himself is, because the believer is now one with Christ. He was both

delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

That means nothing was left out when God saves a soul, and yet almost all of so called Christendom has always taught that this is a lie, that you either have to help Christ save you or help keep yourself saved, or you can lose what God did for you in Christ, meaning He never actualy justified you at all, which means you are very religious and sincere but very likely not saved because you are sayign God didn't REALLY COMPLETELY save you.

 

[amariselle]

You can not have faith in the Son except you are first born of God.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This is why the disciples were given the “Great Commission” in the first place. And so it’s true, “how beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news.”

Faith precedes being “born again” according to Scripture.

Romans 10:
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

The view that one has faith after being born of God plainly contradicts the above verses, and others, where the importance of hearing the Gospel is clearly emphasized as necessary for anyone to then come to faith, become saved and be born again. The preaching of the Gospel (the “foolishness of preaching”) is in fact instrumental in bringing the hearer to faith. And so the sharing of the Gospel is of immense importance, as indicated in Scripture. Suggesting that one is born of God first, and then has faith is putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.

I already showed the relevant verses.
All who are natural born are all carnally minded, And all carnally minded are at enmity with God.
The carnal mind it says cannot be submitted to God's law, so it certainly can not believe in Christ when God tells the carnal mind to repent, God's command is just ignored, it is why they are the sons of disobedience.

Scripture says otherwise. It is clear that people can indeed hear the word of God and be brought to saving faith by His word. We can plant and water, God gives the increase.

Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Yes, the “flesh” wars against the Spirit.

You can NOT choose to be carnal or spiritual, you are what you were born to be, either carnal or spiritual, there is no inbetween state of existence.

God absolutely knows what each of us will choose in life, but He has not created the majority of people to be damned for all eternity. His mercy is available to all, because He so loved the world.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

That verse does not prove that one is born of God before they can have faith, it simply describes a saved born again believer who does have the Spirit of God dwelling in them.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Again, that verse is comparing and contrasting unbelievers with saved, born again believers. It does not say that one must be born again before they can have faith and be saved.

IF YOU LIVE according to the SPIRIT, than means God made you born of God so that you have eternal life, this is not some kind of personal choice to make, to either at one moment be carnally minded or at another moment spiritually minded.

Indeed, the Spiritual re-birth is entirely an act of God, which occurs once someone has heard the Gospel of salvation, repented (a change of mind) and believed, turned to Christ and trusted solely in Him for salvation. We are not puppets or robots. God gave us our minds and we are told to love Him with the very mind He gave us.

If you live according to the FLESH, well your dead, spiritually dead and not in Christ.. People have turned this passage into some kind of daily personal decision they can make, which is also being double minded, and an impossibility, since you are either born of God or not.

It’s not a “daily decision”. Once you are saved, born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit, until the day of redemption, you are secure in Him.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

Could you please tell me what is the cut-off point for the age of accountability rule? Would mentally incompetent qualify? What is the line above which no person qualifies under the "rule" & why?

I don't know the answer to that but many Christians (and Jews) believe that it is around the age of 12. Nowhere in Scripture is an age of accountability mentioned. Here is a link to the "Grace to You" website where John MacArthur gives his answer to the question. I think he gives a thorough explanation of what he believes here: The "Age of Accountability"

I think his view is a good one (and I don't always agree with everything that John MacArthur says) but I think he gives an answer that respects the sovereignty of God while acknowledging the responsibilities of humans.

 

[redleghunter]

John 6:44-45 contradicts what you've said. Men who are dead in their sins do hear and learn of the father from the holy spirit. GOD woos people to come to Christ.

I think you missed three posters who already explained this. The Father quickens us since we are dead and after being made alive we respond and can hear and learn.

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

Could you please tell me what is the cut-off point for the age of accountability rule? Would mentally incompetent qualify? What is the line above which no person qualifies under the "rule" & why?

The mentally incompetent (depending on their level of disability) would likely be judged on the basis of their ability to make a moral choice with the understanding of sin and its consequences. Down's Syndrome children tend to be kinder, more innocent and more loving than those without that disability. Many of them take quite readily to faith.

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

I think you missed three posters who already explained this. The Father quickens us since we are dead and after being made alive we respond and can hear and learn.

Ephesians 2: NASB
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I think that you have glossed over the "in our transgressions" part. Those who have no sin or are not aware of their sin are not yet spiritually dead. (See Romans 5:13-14) I think that is why Paul says that when he became aware of the law, that he died. (see Romans 7:9-12)

 

[redleghunter]

I would disagree! Those people who come to Christ, come not because they are born of God, but to be born of God.

But they are dead.

I think that you have glossed over the "in our transgressions" part. Those who have no sin or are not aware of their sin are not yet spiritually dead. (See Romans 5:13-14) I think that is why Paul says that when he became aware of the law, that he died. (see Romans 7:9-12)

Who is sinless?

 

[redleghunter]

I would disagree! Those people who come to Christ, come not because they are born of God, but to be born of God.

But they are dead.

 

[JesusYeshuaisLord]

Ok. agreed. God is active. He operates according to His will. Is the argument that man does not/cannot operate according to his will also?

Hi, could you reformulate your question? I'm failing to understand what you are asking.

 

[redleghunter]

I think you misunderstand the concept of spiritual death. It is not the same as physical death. Unless you are an annihilationist (many are). Unlike physical death, where the physical body simply ceases to exist, the spiritual body continues in eternity, whether "alive" in the presence of God, or "dead" separated from Him. And no I don't believe I inherited Adam's sin. I inherited his sin nature, but I was created in the image and likeness of God, so I am not totally depraved. I am capable of making a choice to believe and obey, or not. It was when I made that choice that His grace was imparted to me, when I put on Christ it was then that my old spirit of death (separation from God) was itself put to death, and I arose a new spiritual creature, no longer separated (dead) from Him but now united with Him (alive) through His blood. It is that blood that continues to cleanse me of all my sins, provided I continue in the Faith and walk in the Light.

Same choice Joshua made and challenged Israel to make. Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.

At no point in your life you were dead in your trespasses?

I get our souls are not dead. Our ability to respond to the Righteousness of Christ is dead. It is because our will is in bondage to sin and death (Romans 6).

That's the very meaning of making us alive even though we were dead. (Ephesians 2:5)

From your post I assume you believe you are good enough and not in bondage to sin and death, and thus can on your own volition respond to God in repentance and faith?

 

[redleghunter]

Taken in isolation, it might be hard to tell what it is referring to. However, the context behind nearly all of Paul's epistles is the context of the heresy of the Judaizers. In that light, nearly every topic is about showing that Jews and Gentiles are in the same boat outside of Christ, and in the same boat in Christ.

I would say Ephesians may be the one epistle to a Gentile only audience. I noticed in Ephesians 2 Paul only speaks of "works" in verse 9 and does not mention the Law. He does a few verses later but it is based on the atonement in Christ.

 

[FineLinen]

I don't know the answer to that but many Christians (and Jews) believe that it is around the age of 12. Nowhere in Scripture is an age of accountability mentioned. Here is a link to the "Grace to You" website where John MacArthur gives his answer to the question. I think he gives a thorough explanation of what he believes here: The "Age of Accountability"

I think his view is a good one (and I don't always agree with everything that John MacArthur says) but I think he gives an answer that respects the sovereignty of God while acknowledging the responsibilities of humans.

Hi there L.C. you are correct; the age of accountability "rule" is not mentioned. I know a girl (now an adult woman with the capacity of a child under 6 or 7 a best. She could not make a moral decision ever. We are currently discussing the amazing words in Romans 5. There are those who maintain the first Adam, (and his disobedience), is not met with the Last Adam bringing the ruined lot (the mass) to righteousness. In short, each side of the equation equal. Today and every day, over 15,000 children under the age of five die worldwide. According to the "rule" they are home free. The problem, of course, we sin because we have inherited the sin nature. That nature must be changed, and no get out of jail free card will do it. No "rule" will do it! Can you see the problem?

Well, my friend, thank you for your response and think on these things."The whole of created life shall be delivered/ emancipated/ set free from the bondage of corruption..."

 

[redleghunter]

This demonstrates the peculiar way Calvinist-type ideation frames the discussion into a binary dialectic that GOD either does everything or he does nothing. I never said anything about men choosing GOD first; that conclusion is demanded by your dialectic.

In fact, I believe that GOD speaks to all men and woos those who are responsive to his voice. He chooses those who hearken to him and opens their hearts and minds to see Christ at his appointed time. Then man chooses to repent and believe, at which point the new birth occurs.

Jesus did not do much wooing:

Matthew 13: NASB
10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him moreshall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

16“But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17“For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it,and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

 

[redleghunter]

I agree that Calvinists do not understand the Bible. They take one or two verses out of context and run with them--so as to protect their exclusive little club.

Did I miss your exegesis on the subject?

A most unkind post. How many of the brethren have you offended with the above post?

 

[redleghunter]

IMO that meanness of spirit and "you have to believe our special way" intolerance is baked into Calvinism via gnostic supremacism that Calvin picked up from the writings of Augustine, who followed the teachings of Manichaean gnostics for 9 years.

Where do you get this nonsense?

 

[redleghunter]

Yup! Romans 5:18 - Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

How do you square your interpretation of the above with let's say Revelation 20?