Do your best to explain Romans 5

[GingerBeer]

Humanity’s Sin Through Adam.​

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned — 13 for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law. 14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin after the pattern of the trespass of Adam, who is the type of the one who was to come.

Once again, read the passage as it is written and it is not unclear, at least not too unclear.

Remembering that this is a letter to the Roman Christians in which Paul is introducing himself this section (verses 12 through 14) is about death and sin and its remedy.

Paul starts by pointing out that death is the common lot of human beings. And since sin is the cause of death Paul starts by noting that sin is the common lot of human beings. Eve and then Adam sinned and the consequence was that death came into the world because of their sin. We're all descended from Adam (and Eve) so we all die too. We die because we sin. We sin because it is now the common inheritance of humanity to sin. It is what our story began with, it is a sin in the origin of humanity and that is why it is called "Original sin". Original in this phrase means "according to the origin" that is to say it is about how we started as a race. We inherit this origin and hence we inherit the sin with which it all started. And so we die because human death was the result of the first human sin. That is the point Paul makes in verse 12.

In verses 13 & 14 Paul make an observation as an aside. He observes that the Law didn't exist when Sin came into the world and nevertheless Adam and Eve died and so did all their children and so on for all the generations until the Law was finally given and, of course, after the Law was given human beings continued to die because they continued to sin.

In verse 14 Paul make a remark about "the one who was to come". We know he is writing about Jesus Christ. The one who was to come is Jesus. That is how Paul ties this part of the chapter back to the first part (verses 1 to 11).

 

[corinth77777]

I will ask you, was the blood sprinkled for the whole Israel or only for those people in Israel that were saved?

I actually read his post question and I like that He reveals the meaning of called out, if to give rise to who are called out today....
Yet if I may, I would have to say that the blood was sprinkled for all Israel, yet all Israel may not have heeded to keeping the law. In that sense could one say many are called but few are chosen. Or that truly all Israel was truly not Israel but those who truly did the law. Just a thought

 

[redleghunter]

You obviously don't understand, or don't believe, John 6:44-45.

Ok, that is what I was getting at. We are called by God, quickened before we can respond to Him. Makes sense of 'born again' or 'born from above.'

btw that's a great picture in your signature, but do you realize how much it inconveniences everyone to have to scroll so much to get to the next post?

My apologies, I tried to size it to no avail, tried another as you see now and same thing. It was the proper size yesterday. I will find something tiny.

 

[corinth77777]

Ok, that is what I was getting at. We are called by God, quickened before we can respond to Him. Makes sense of 'born again' or 'born from above.'

My apologies, I tried to size it to no avail, tried another as you see now and same thing. It was the proper size yesterday. I will find something tiny.

You said something that may have clicked. Remember when He tell His disciples that you are clean because of the word spoken to them. It says it is the Spirit that gives life. Those words that He had spoken He said were Spirit and life. So then can it be since the gospel is the power unto salvation. Anyone who hears the word is cleansed ?is this the quikening by the Spirit?

 

[bling]

One chapter I've been reading maybe more than any other chapter in the Bible, that is Romans 5. Since it's a description of the atonement, it's a very central chapter of the Bible. Do your best to explain the whole, or just a part of Romans 5. Let us discuss this chapter and do our best to understand it.

Christ love,

P

Paul repeats ideas and builds on the previous explanation, so the ideas in Romans’ 5 go back to Ro. 3:25 and even further back to Romans’ 1.

I would at least start with Ro. 3:25

Back ground: The Crucifixion is described literally by Christ, Paul, Peter, John (in Revelations) and the Hebrew writer as a ransom payment. (I am not talking about the Ransom Theory of Atonement which is wrong.

Paul in Ro. 3:25 giving the extreme contrast between the way sins where handle prior to the cross and after the cross, so if they were actually handle the same way “by the cross” there would be no contrast, only a time factor, but Paul said (forgiven) sins prior to the cross where left “unpunished”, but that also means the forgiven “sinner” after the cross were punished.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom. A lack of faith results in the refusal of the ransom payment (Christ crucified).

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever is himself is holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

Ro. 3: 25 …He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

I do not like the word “unpunished” since the same Greek word also means “undisciplined”.

So prior to the cross repentant forgiven people (saved individuals) could not be fairly and justly disciplined for the rebellious disobedience, but after the cross if we repent (come to our senses and turn to God) we can be fairly and justly disciplined and yet survive.

God and Christ would have personally preferred Christ’s blood to remain flowing through his veins, but it is I that need to have that blood outside of Christ flowing over me and in me cleansing my heart. I need to feel that blood and know it is cleansing me.

If you think about the crucifixion, you would realize at the time, Christ was on the cross God in heaven out of empathy/Love for Christ would be experience an even greater pain than Christ. We as our Love grows and our realization of what we personally caused Christ to go through will feel the death blow to our hearts (Acts 2:37). We will experience the greatest pain we could experience and still live, which is the way God is disciplining us today and for all the right reasons because Loving discipline correctly accepted results in a wondrous relationship with our parent. (We can now comfortably feel justified before God.)

Here are some questions I used in my adult Bible class:

Roman 3 starting with Ro. 3:24

1. Prior to Christ going to the cross where some people forgiven of their sins and if so who, how and why?

2. (God “pass over sins” or as in the NIV “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”) so which sins in the past are these?

3. The OT gives lots of severe punishments for sins, so could/did “severe sins” go unpunished? Did God allow/want them to go unpunished? Why have these severe rules and punishments in the law?

4. Where the forgiven sins of those before the cross forgiven the exact same way as those after the cross?

5. If some sins where forgiven before the cross, was the cross needed to forgive sins?

6. From your own experience how hard was/is it for you to forgive the transgressions of your truly repentant child? Was/is there other action you have/had to see to that was harder to do? (What are/was it?)

7. Did you punish or discipline your children? (What would Dr. Dobson say?)

8. From your own experience with your children, if your child correctly accepted your most wise discipline and purely charitable forgiveness; was your relationship with your child better after or before the disobedience?

9. Is disciplining your child a learning maturing growing experience?

10. How could your rebellious/disobedient child stand “justified’ and “righteous” before you even today?

11. Look at the example Christ gives with the prodigal son (Luke 15: 11-32). Who is the kidnapper, what ransom was paid, who was set free, and could the son stand “justified” and/or “righteous” before the father?

12. Rev. 5: 9 “…and with your blood you purchased for God, persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.” Who did Christ pay?

13. What reason would Christ have for paying satan?

14. If God forgives our sins why would they still have to be paid for?

15. If Christ paid for our sins, why do they still need to be forgiven?

16. Atonement (propitiation) sacrifice can be for everyone with the ransom payment being offered but the kidnapper may refuse to accept the sacrifice, so it was made in vain for that kidnapper and the child is not freed?


35. RSV Ro 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, NIV Ro 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. How can we be “justified” like we kept the Law without keeping the Law?

What is the relationship between being justified and being righteous?

36. “Redemption” is an interesting word, so what does it mean here?

37. If we are being paid for and set free: who is hoping us captive, what are we being held from, what is the ransom being paid, who is being paid the ransom (who is the kidnapper), what value/benefit would this ransom have to the kidnapper, and how does “faith” play into this?

38. Verse 25 might help explain “redemption”, but v.25 is not easy to understand, so what does this verse mean?

39. If Paul is conveying the idea of a “ransom” which the context might suggest than it would be in keeping with other times Paul, Peter, Christ, John and the Hebrew writers use the analogy of a ransom in describing atonement or what happened with the crucifixion, so who is being paid off?

40. “sacrifice of atonement”, “atonement cover on the ark of the covenant”, “expiation”, “mercy seat”, “propitiation” and “propitiatory sacrifice”, all refer to what God put forward with Christ, so what was God doing?

41. What are we specifically putting our “faith” in to have this atonement take place or does it take place without involving our faith and some of us just do not receive it?

42. If we do not receive it does it take place for us? Is that similar to God’s Love, forgiveness and mercy?


43. Why are we even involved?

44. Is this to help make God righteous or to show the righteousness God already has?

45. This one little phrase of Paul: “because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins” becomes a thorn in the flesh for most theories of atonement. So what does it mean?

46. What does it mean for God to “pass over sins” or as in the NIV “left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”? Does it mean accumulate them? Roll the sins forward? Forgiving the sins without doing something else that is needed and maybe can be accomplished with the cross?

47. Is God passing over and/or leaving the sins unpunished, mean all sins or just some sins and which ones did He pass over (leave unpunished)?

48. If you go back to the OT and see all the “punishments” there were for sins, does that look like God is passing over them?

49. There is a contrast in V.25 between what we have after the cross and what there was before the cross, so did Christ going to the cross solve the problem moving forward and/or did Christ crucifixion undo God’s passing over sin in the past?

50. If Christ by going to the cross eliminates God’s need to pass over sins than why did God ever pass over sins since “time” is not a factor (Christ went to the cross from the beginning of time), so what effect would Christ have on past sins God passed over?

51. V. 26 How is God shown as being right (fair/just) with Christ going to the cross? Is it fair/just to allow the innocent to be tortured, humiliated and murdered, and the guilty to go free?

52. V. 26 In what way do we become justified while those that were previously pasted over could not be justified?

 

[mark kennedy]

I actually read his post question and I like that He reveals the meaning of called out, if to give rise to who are called out today....
Yet if I may, I would have to say that the blood was sprinkled for all Israel, yet all Israel may not have heeded to keeping the law. In that sense could one say many are called but few are chosen. Or that truly all Israel was truly not Israel but those who truly did the law. Just a thought

The ark of the covenant where the blood of atonement was sprinkled, contained the tablets of the Ten Commandment. It was the essence of the covenant, obedience brought blessing, disobedience brought a curse. No one could ultimately no one can keep that covenant until the curse of the Law and the curse of sin and death from Adam is ended or atoned for. The sin of one man brought death, the death of Christ brought life eternal. The message of Romans 5 reflects the simplicity of the gospel, Christ and him crucified.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[redleghunter]

John 6:44-45 contradicts what you've said. Men who are dead in their sins do hear and learn of the father from the holy spirit. GOD woos people to come to Christ.

The Father drawing them is the key word before the coming to and learning.

 

[συνείδησις]

My apologies, I tried to size it to no avail, tried another as you see now and same thing. It was the proper size yesterday. I will find something tiny.

That pic is great. Thank you.

 

[συνείδησις]

The Father drawing them is the key word before the coming to and learning.

John 6:44-45 says that hearing the spirit and learning of the father happen before coming to Christ. That was definitely my experience.

 

[corinth77777]

The ark of the covenant where the blood of atonement was sprinkled, contained the tablets of the Ten Commandment. It was the essence of the covenant, obedience brought blessing, disobedience brought a curse. No one could ultimately no one can keep that covenant until the curse of the Law and the curse of sin and death from Adam is ended or atoned for. The sin of one man brought death, the death of Christ brought life eternal. The message of Romans 5 reflects the simplicity of the gospel, Christ and him crucified.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I don't know for sure for lack of knowledge in a few areas. Its much too much to take the time to meditate and try to explain right now.

For I would think, Yes they could keep the covenant for a time....until they failed....otherwise what would be the purpose of being cover again if not to move forward. Recall that passage if a righteous man stops being righteous then all the righteous things He did don't count.
But for the most part I do agree....Christ then is the ship we must live in until redemption Day.. His Life allows us to sail the 7 seas. As long as we live in it.

 

[amariselle]

What your teaching is man does this on his own natural ability, seeing and hearing and learning from the Father! That is Pelagianism, a heresy condemned long ago.

Those people who come to Christ do so because they have been born of God. They are the ones who God teaches about Christ and all born again see and enter into the kingdom of God, according to His purpose and will for them.

So, people don’t have the ability to see and hear and learn from God?

Luke 10:
38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

It seems Scripture would say otherwise, unless Mary and Martha were just an exception. However, I do not believe this was the case. If we read Scripture, it is clear in both the OT and the NT that people actually do have the ability to make choices (free will) and they absolutely have the ability to listen to God and believe or to reject Him. This is why the guilt of that rejection and rebellion lies with those who turn away and not with God.

 

[corinth77777]

With looking at Chapter 4 Verse 22-25
It begs the question of when is man truly justified before God and can He be more than once born from above?

 

[corinth77777]

So, people don’t have the ability to see and hear and learn from God?

Luke 10:
38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

It seems Scripture would say otherwise, unless Mary and Martha were just an exception. However, I do not believe this was the case. If we read Scripture, it is clear in both the OT and the NT that people actually do have the ability to make choices (free will) and they absolutely have the ability to listen to God and believe or to reject Him. This is why the guilt of that rejection and rebellion lies with those who turn away and not with God.

God created man kind, does He not give ability to learn from Him...Isn't that what the Journey is partly about.

 

[Call me Nic]

With looking at Chapter 4 Verse 22-25
It begs the question of when is man truly justified before God and can He be more than once born from above?

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
Once you receive the Gospel and believe, you are sealed unto the resurrection of life (Ephesians 1:13).

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yea I do this on a cell phone and the spell checker works against me. The Day of Atonement was the day Isreal was cleansed for all their sins (Lev. 16:29-30).

Agreed on both....
Could you imagine the day robots take over?
We're having enough trouble writing what we want!

 

[amariselle]

First off, only those drawn come to Christ. There are none drawn who do not come to Christ. The ones drawn are the ones raised up to life on the last Day.
The explanation for v45, Christ tells us you must hear and learn. This is not just natural hearing, it is supernatural according to the Spirit to be taught spiritual things and to believe them you must become a spiritual man, and the natural man is dead, the carnal mind is at enmity with God. All in v45 is referring to all who are drawn, not all men. And all so drawn can hear and learn and all of them come to Christ, BECAUSE they have been granted - enabled by the Father to believe in Christ.

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Romans 9
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

YOU CAN NOT choose to be anything except what you are, it is not in your own power. If you have a carnal mind this means you are dead, not born of God and you are at war and hatred of God and Christ.

That “carnal mind” is what all of us had before being born again through faith in Christ.

And Scripture tells us plainly that God does indeed “draw all men” to Himself, through Christ.

John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. - John 12:32

 

[amariselle]

God created man kind, does He not give ability to learn from Him...Isn't that what the Journey is partly about.

Yes. I don’t understand this idea what we have no natural ability to learn from God. Why did Jesus spend so much time teaching and preaching then? Why did the disciples? Why are we told to love God with all our heart, all our soul, all our strength and all our mind? If we cannot actually learn from Him, then we can’t actually love Him with our minds after all, so that command makes no sense.

Also, Scripture tells us plainly that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Clearly therefore we are able to hear the word of God and learn from it. (Especially the Gospel).

And consider the invitation Jesus issued that all who were weary and heavy laden would come to Him and find rest. Was He just talking to Himself?

Or what about how he “stands at the door and knocks”, why bother if we are “dead” and have no ability to even open the “door.”?

Or His promise that all who seek shall find. If we are “dead” and unable to seek, what is He talking about?

I truly do not understand how anyone can read the Scriptures and reject that mankind has freewill. We see it plainly from the Garden onwards.

 

[mark kennedy]

I don't know for sure for lack of knowledge in a few areas. Its much too much to take the time to meditate and try to explain right now.

For I would think, Yes they could keep the covenant for a time....until they failed....otherwise what would be the purpose of being cover again if not to move forward. Recall that passage if a righteous man stops being righteous then all the righteous things He did don't count.
But for the most part I do agree....Christ then is the ship we must live in until redemption Day.. His Life allows us to sail the 7 seas. As long as we live in it.

Ok, you like the analogy of a ship, that actually pretty close to one used in Hebrews. It says Christ has passed through the veil, in other words into the Holy of Holies, or the very pretense of God to make atonement. This is where our faith holds like an anchor. This earthly vessel while tossed and turned on the sea of our sojourn here is anchored to the hope we have I'm Christ'. (See Hebrews 6:19) That's what keeps our earthly vessel from smashing against the rocks of the cares of this life or overturned by the storm. That would be consistant with Paul's exortation to set our minds on Christ who is at the right hand of the Father. So, as Paul explains, we died and when Christ who is our live shall appear we will be raised with him in glory. (Col. 3:1-4)

A ship is the perfect analogy for atonement as discussed in Hebrews 6. The is our earthly life and our faith holds like an anchor at the true mercy seat in heaven.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

Agreed on both....
Could you imagine the day robots take over?
We're having enough trouble writing what we want!

They offered me the Galaxy Jr. At a good discount but silly me I went with a cheap LG. I really don't think we have to worry about the robots taking over, what happens when they start acting like my rouge spell checker?

 

[amariselle]

That may seem radical idea to you, it did to me at first until I studied and learned the scriptures.
See in you way of thinking you choose Him first, but we are not born of God by the will of ourselves.
Yes we receive Christ as Lord, but first we must be born of God as John 3:3 says.

John 1
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 5 English Standard Version (ESV)
Overcoming the World
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Of course we don’t “choose Him first.” None of us would have any Gospel of salvation if God hadn’t “so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

It is all according to God’s sovereign grace and mercy that He reaches down to save us. The Lamb of God was slain “from the foundation of the earth”, it was always God’s perfect will and plan. So, yes, we are absolutely not born of God without the provision of God in our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

And we are “born of God”, after we turn to Him in faith and believe, not before. No one is born of God apart from faith in the Son.