Do your best to explain Romans 5

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

I don't think it's as obvious as you believe. As usual we got Calvinists on one side and those who believe in universal atonement on the other. I have an idea of how understand Rom 5, but I'm interested in other views, if there are better explanations.

I'm not happy with the commentaries out there. I think many of them are flawed. Often the doctrine of the churches puts blinders on, so not to see what the scriptures are saying.

Redemption and Salvation

While the terms are often used interchangeabley, "redemption" and "salvation" are distinct terms with different meanings.

Redemption: Our Lord "gave himself as a ransom for all." There is a universality for what Christ accomplished on the Cross. This is what "redemption" means, it is unconditional and inclusive; all are redeemed. And because Christ was resurrected, all will be resurrected. Death will die. But there are two resurrections indicated in the scriptures, one for the saved and one for the damned.

Salvation, however, requires accepting that redemption. None who reject it can be saved. Salvation (limited atonement) is exclusive. There is coming a time (the Day of Lord) when God, in essence, says “Time’s up!” He is not going to allow sin to forever exist, not in His Creation and certainly not in His Kingdom. But some people are children of the devil and not children of God, they are not lost sheep, they are goats. And you cannot turn a goat into a sheep, even they bleat similarly.

To summarize: All are redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ and by His resurrection and all will be resurrected. However, salvation into the Kingdom of God requires fully accepting this redemption (admitting they are sinners in need of it). None who reject this redemption (refusing to repent and trust in Christ) can be saved. And many reject it.

 

[zoidar]

Therefore, limited atonement. Welcome to the club.

The difference is that I believe we limit the atonement, not God. Jesus work on the cross is from my view exactly the same for everyone, the difference is if it's receiced or not.

The anology would be: Mankind is in prison, Satan is the jailor. Christ by his death, kicks out and takes the keys from Satan to the prison cells. Mankind is now in a very different situation, wouldn't you say? The people are still in jail, but when a person asks Jesus to be let out, immediately Jesus unlocks the door to the cell. Christ is our VICTOR!

Doesn't limited atonement normally refer to that God limited the atonement, meaningly that Christ death only atoned for the elect, from the objective point of view? By no means I hold on to such an idea. Objectively Christ died for everyone, but the atoning sacrifice is only atoning those that receive.

The Bible tells us that Jesus the Messiah bore the sins of everyone, mankind, the whole world on the cross. That is not the statement of someone believing in limited atonement, is it?

 

[redleghunter]

Doesn't limited atonement normally refer to that God limited the atonement, meaningly that Christ death only atoned for the elect, from the objective point of view? By no means I hold on to such an idea. Obectively Christ died for everyone, but the atoning sacrifice is only atoning those that receive.

Even the Arminian view of corporate election limits atonement effectually for the elect.

@Dr Bruce Atkinson goes into detail here on redemption vs. salvation.

 

[zoidar]

Even the Arminian view of corporate election limits atonement effectually for the elect.

From that view only universialists believe in unlimited atonement ...

"Limited atonement is the teaching within Calvinism which states that Jesus only bore the sins of the elect (those chosen for salvation by God) and that He did not bear the sins of every individual who has ever lived."

What is Limited Atonement? | CARM.org

 

[FineLinen]

Discombobulated ... I understand, I feel the same way.

I wish you the same my brother! May the Lord bless you and keep you! May the face of the Lord shine on you and may the Lord always make your ways straight!

Christ love,

P

Just a quick return to see my favorite Swede. If you can give me the Swedish for "all the more" I will leave a little something for us on this wonderful link.

Through one trespass. The judgment came. Upon ALL MEN. To condemnation.

EVEN SO

Through one righteous act. The free gift came. Upon ALL MEN. To justification of life.

How shall I describe the blessing that came to my own soul when Jesus Christ revealed to me that as potent as was the power of Adam's disobedience, mightier yet is the power contained in the OBEDIENCE OF THE SON OF GOD. All the languages and dialects of earth do not contain words meaningful enough to describe the immensity of the all embracing work of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God. I fully expect that I will be misunderstood in these things, but I am assured by the Lord Jesus that one day the truth of it will be common knowledge, and all Christians and all people will be forced to acknowledge it. I suppose that all the arguments and persuasions in the world will not convince some saints today of the incontrovertible truth of the words under consideration: "Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.

For as by one man's disobedience many (Greek: "the many" - all) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (Greek: "the many" - all) be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, GRACE DID MUCH MORE ABOUND" (Rom. 5:18-20).

The Amplified Bible renders verse 20: "But then Law came in, only to expand and increase the trespass. But where sin increased and abounded, GRACE HAS SURPASSED IT AND INCREASED THE MORE AND SUPERABOUNDED."

Grace did "much more" abound. More. MUCH MORE! My deepest prayer is that God may grant understanding to all who read these lines that you may see the wonderful significance of the word "more." You can never comprehend the greatness of God's love, the majesty of His the glories of His Kingdom in the bright ages yet to come purpose, nor unless your spirit can grasp this word "more."

"More" is that which goes beyond the limits.

A pound of beans is a set limit. I pay 53 cents for a pound package of beans. But if I find in my bag a pound and a half or two pounds, that is "more." It surpasses the limits of the 53 cents. I am amazed, delighted, happy, and a sense of well-being pervades me; someone has done MORE than required or paid for. It has a language all its own. That language of MORE THAN is what the Bible is teaching from the first verse in Genesis to the last verse in Revelation. That is what GOD IS AND DOES. That is what LOVE IS AND DOES. That is what GRACE IS AND DOES. That is what SALVATION IS AND DOES! -J.P. Eby

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

The difference is that I believe we limit the atonement, not God. Jesus work on the cross is from my view exactly the same for everyone, the difference is if it's receiced or not.

The anology would be: Mankind is in prison, Satan is the jailor. Christ by his death, kicks out and takes the keys from Satan to the prison cells. Mankind is now in a very different situation, wouldn't you say? The people are still in jail, but when a person asks Jesus to be let out, immediately Jesus unlocks the door to the cell. Christ is our VICTOR!

Doesn't limited atonement normally refer to that God limited the atonement, meaningly that Christ death only atoned for the elect, from the objective point of view? By no means I hold on to such an idea. Obectively Christ died for everyone, but the atoning sacrifice is only atoning those that receive.

The Bible tells us that Jesus the Messiah bore the sins of everyone, mankind, the whole world on the cross. That is not the statement of someone believing in limited atonement, is it?

Yes it is, if you look at the whole of the gospel. While the terms are often used interchangeabley, "redemption" and "salvation" are distinct terms with different meanings.

Redemption: Our Lord "gave himself as a ransom for all." There is a universality for what Christ accomplished on the Cross. This is what "redemption" means, it is unconditional and inclusive; all are redeemed. And because Christ was resurrected, all will be resurrected. Death will die. But there are two resurrections indicated in the scriptures, one for the saved and one for the damned.

Salvation, however, requires accepting that redemption. None who reject it can be saved. Salvation (limited atonement) is exclusive. There is coming a time (the Day of Lord) when God, in essence, says “Time’s up!” He is not going to allow sin to forever exist, not in His Creation and certainly not in His Kingdom. But some people are children of the devil and not children of God, they are not lost sheep, they are goats. And you cannot turn a goat into a sheep, even they bleat similarly.

To summarize: All are redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ and by His resurrection and all will be resurrected. However, salvation into the Kingdom of God requires fully accepting this redemption (admitting they are sinners in need of it). None who reject this redemption (refusing to repent and trust in Christ) can be saved.

Thus salvation is limited; whether you want to call that limited atonement is up to you. Theologians will never agree until Jesus returns to straighten them out.

 

[FineLinen]

Yes it is, if you look at the whole of the gospel. While the terms are often used interchangeabley, "redemption" and "salvation" are distinct terms with different meanings.

Redemption: Our Lord "gave himself as a ransom for all." There is a universality for what Christ accomplished on the Cross. This is what "redemption" means, it is unconditional and inclusive; all are redeemed. And because Christ was resurrected, all will be resurrected. Death will die. But there are two resurrections indicated in the scriptures, one for the saved and one for the damned.

Salvation, however, requires accepting that redemption. None who reject it can be saved. Salvation (limited atonement) is exclusive. There is coming a time (the Day of Lord) when God, in essence, says “Time’s up!” He is not going to allow sin to forever exist, not in His Creation and certainly not in His Kingdom. But some people are children of the devil and not children of God, they are not lost sheep, they are goats. And you cannot turn a goat into a sheep, even they bleat similarly.

To summarize: All are redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ and by His resurrection and all will be resurrected. However, salvation into the Kingdom of God requires fully accepting this redemption (admitting they are sinners in need of it). None who reject this redemption (refusing to repent and trust in Christ) can be saved.

Thus salvation is limited; whether you want to call that limited atonement is up to you. Theologians will never agree until Jesus returns to straighten them out.

Yes it is, if you look at the whole of the gospel. While the terms are often used interchangeabley, "redemption" and "salvation" are distinct terms with different meanings.

Redemption: Our Lord "gave himself as a ransom for all." There is a universality for what Christ accomplished on the Cross. This is what "redemption" means, it is unconditional and inclusive; all are redeemed. And because Christ was resurrected, all will be resurrected. Death will die. But there are two resurrections indicated in the scriptures, one for the saved and one for the damned.

Salvation, however, requires accepting that redemption. None who reject it can be saved. Salvation (limited atonement) is exclusive. There is coming a time (the Day of Lord) when God, in essence, says “Time’s up!” He is not going to allow sin to forever exist, not in His Creation and certainly not in His Kingdom. But some people are children of the devil and not children of God, they are not lost sheep, they are goats. And you cannot turn a goat into a sheep, even they bleat similarly.

To summarize: All are redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ and by His resurrection and all will be resurrected. However, salvation into the Kingdom of God requires fully accepting this redemption (admitting they are sinners in need of it). None who reject this redemption (refusing to repent and trust in Christ) can be saved.

Thus salvation is limited; whether you want to call that limited atonement is up to you. Theologians will never agree until Jesus returns to straighten them out.

Hi there Dr. Bruce: I know only one passage of Scripture that uses the word "limited". "You have limited the Holy One of Israel"! Our God is indeed not going to allow sin to exist in one single degree. Prevenient grace has absolutely nothing to do with you or I, but is exclusively the act of drawing from Above. And that glorious act of drawing/dragging with power, will ultimately be expressed in every dimension of the heavens, the earth, and the underworld.

"That IN the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue confess">>>>
"You are Lord to the glory of God the Father."

This worship by all beings in all dimensions of the universe is not by perfunctory genuflections but in union with the Name of all names!

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..."

"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ina en twi onomati Ihsou pan gonu kampsh). First aorist active subjunctive of kamptw, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ina. Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22 ;Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13 . Under the earth (katacqoniwn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T." -A.T Robertson-

 

[zoidar]

Yes it is, if you look at the whole of the gospel. While the terms are often used interchangeabley, "redemption" and "salvation" are distinct terms with different meanings.

Redemption: Our Lord "gave himself as a ransom for all." There is a universality for what Christ accomplished on the Cross. This is what "redemption" means, it is unconditional and inclusive; all are redeemed. And because Christ was resurrected, all will be resurrected. Death will die. But there are two resurrections indicated in the scriptures, one for the saved and one for the damned.

Salvation, however, requires accepting that redemption. None who reject it can be saved. Salvation (limited atonement) is exclusive. There is coming a time (the Day of Lord) when God, in essence, says “Time’s up!” He is not going to allow sin to forever exist, not in His Creation and certainly not in His Kingdom. But some people are children of the devil and not children of God, they are not lost sheep, they are goats. And you cannot turn a goat into a sheep, even they bleat similarly.

To summarize: All are redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ and by His resurrection and all will be resurrected. However, salvation into the Kingdom of God requires fully accepting this redemption (admitting they are sinners in need of it). None who reject this redemption (refusing to repent and trust in Christ) can be saved.

Thus salvation is limited; whether you want to call that limited atonement is up to you. Theologians will never agree until Jesus returns to straighten them out.

I think that being redeemed is when a person is saved and made righteous, not just being made "righteous" in the eyes of God.

It sounds like you hold on to the penal substitution view. I don't believe Christ took the punishment in our place that the Father had in store for us. I believe Christ conquered sin to forgive us. From my view it was not the punishment that was the problem, the problem was sin and it's consequences. So I don't believe in a legal term justification, making us look righteous in the eyes of God. I believe in an actual term justification, making us righteous to God.

 

[FineLinen]

I think that being redeemed is when a person is saved and made righteous, not just being made "righteous" in the eyes of God.

It sounds like you hold on to the penal substitution view. I don't believe Christ took the punishment in our place that the Father had in store for us. I believe Christ conquered sin to forgive us. From my view it was not the punishment that was the problem, the problem was sin and it's consequences. So I don't believe in a legal term justification, making us look righteous in the eyes of God. I believe in an actual term justification, making us righteous to God.

My favorite Swede has said it well! The Lord of Glory has indeed conquered sin & will make any person "justified" by simple faith in Him. The purpose of the Father is, and always has been, to bring us fallen wrecks back into fellowship and "make" every last one righteous! I am beginning to look at every person IN Christ Jesus, and await the glorious breaking of a new Day when that intention of Abba is fully implemented. May He continue to bless you and all of us, as we fall before Him with a glory, glory, glory of antiphonal worship! The vision of the prophet Isa. was one of heavenly beings calling to one another "glory" back and forth to each other!

 

[corinth77777]

Even the Arminian view of corporate election limits atonement effectually for the elect.

@Dr Bruce Atkinson goes into detail here on redemption vs. salvation.

I believe He died for all..
For there is a passage that says He gave gifts to men hoping that they would come to Him....don't quote that word for word....I'll find it

 

[FineLinen]

I believe He died for all..
For there is a passage that says He gave gifts to men hoping that they would come to Him....don't quote that word for word....I'll find it

Eph. 4.8=

“Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.”

8. For this reason He (it) is constantly saying,

"Going up (stepping up; ascending) into a height (unto [the] summit)

He led (leads) captive a captive multitude [or: He led "captivity" captive]

He gave (gives) gifts to mankind (or: to/for the men)."

9 Now (but) this "He went up (ascended)," what is it if not (except) that He also descended (stepped down) into the lower parts (the under regions) of the earth (land)?

10 The One stepping down (descending) is Himself also the One stepping (going) up (ascending) far above (back up over) all of the heavens, to the end that He may make the Whole full [or: may fill up everything (the All)].

11 And He Himself gave (gives; p46: has given), on the one hand (indeed), the ones sent with a commission (the apostles), yet also the prophets, and on the other hand those who announce good news (the evangelists), and the shepherds and teachers,

12 toward the preparation (mending; knitting together; adjusting; repairing; perfectly adjusted adaptation; equipping; completely furnishing) of the set‑apart (holy) ones unto (into) a work (action; deed) of attending service, unto (into) construction (building the house) of the body of the Christ.

13. until we all may come down to the goal (attain; arrive at; meet accordingly; meet down face‑to‑face) into the state of oneness (unity) of the Faith, and of the full, experiential and intimate knowledge (recognition; discovery) of the Son of God, into (unto) a perfect (complete; finished; mature; full‑grown) man. into (unto) [the] measure of stature (full age; prime of life) of the entire contents (of that which fills up; of the fullness; of the complement; of the full number; of the completing) of the Christ,

 

[corinth77777]

I think that being redeemed is when a person is saved and made righteous, not just being made "righteous" in the eyes of God.

It sounds like you hold on to the penal substitution view. I don't believe Christ took the punishment in our place that the Father had in store for us. I believe Christ conquered sin to forgive us. From my view it was not the punishment that was the problem, the problem was sin and it's consequences. So I don't believe in a legal term justification, making us look righteous in the eyes of God. I believe in an actual term justification, making us righteous to God.

Please elaborate some more...for I see both.... But wish to see how you see it...

 

[corinth77777]

I think that being redeemed is when a person is saved and made righteous, not just being made "righteous" in the eyes of God.

It sounds like you hold on to the penal substitution view. I don't believe Christ took the punishment in our place that the Father had in store for us. I believe Christ conquered sin to forgive us. From my view it was not the punishment that was the problem, the problem was sin and it's consequences. So I don't believe in a legal term justification, making us look righteous in the eyes of God. I believe in an actual term justification, making us righteous to God.

Actually I think I get it.
Christ didn't die so we wouldn't have to.

 

[corinth77777]

Actually I think I get it.
Christ didn't die so we wouldn't have to.

I think I may agree At least 50 percent of some of what you wrote. Although my brain has not done a 360 to redirect the old interpretation.....to find if scripture confirms this.

For if I'm to believe this....Then here are a few questions I would have. Where is our standing? And If He is the end and beginning wouldn't Jesus Christ be the positional place before God. And if He is...would not any man brought into Christ have a Justified state before God? Also then how are men then Justified ? Are there not 2 types of Justification? One before man and one before God. Could that be the reason Paul states who will save us from this body of death? Doesn't He say some where/some What: so with my heart I serve the Law of God...but with my flesh the law of sin. As of before the Flesh ruled....but grace in our justification[christ] Would give us opportunity to flip it. Being controlled by the spirit that our flesh is a natural reaction to it.
Here we may find our Justification before men as an effect of our Justification before GOD....That man are brought into God through our actions or deeds that's only a response of the word that cleanses our hearts.

 

[zoidar]

Please elaborate some more...for I see both.... But wish to see how you see it...

Hi corinth! I hold to the Classic theory called Christus Victor. This is my take on it:

Sin leads to death. The consequence of the sins of the world lead to Jesus crucifixion and death. But as we know death couldn't hold him, so he got resurrected and by this he overcame death and sin. He brought back mankind from the terrible position under the rule of Satan, back to God, to be under Christ's rule, since he by conquering sin was given the rightful power to set us free from sin.

By giving our lives to Christ, Christ becomes our master and he gives us his Spirit though the new birth. He forgives us our sins and cleanses us from them. Through the new Spirit, the Holy Spirit, we have the power to overcome sin in our lives and the power to live righteously. When we do fail, we turn to Christ for forgiveness so we can be cleansed of our wrongdoing and be back purified on the righteous path.

So it wasn't the legal status to God that had to be changed, but our sinful nature. God didn't sacrifice Christ to redeem us from his anger, but to free us from sin to live for him, in him, with him. So it's about an actual atonement and not about a legal standing.

 

[corinth77777]

Hi corinth! I hold to the Classic theory called Christus Victor. This is my take on it:

Sin leads to death. The consequence of the sins of the world lead to Jesus crucifixion and death. But as we know death couldn't hold him, so he got resurrected and by this he overcame death and sin. He brought back mankind from the terrible position under the rule of Satan, back to God, to be under Christ's rule, since he by conquering sin was given the rightful power to set us free from sin.

By giving our lives to Christ, Christ becomes our master and he gives us his Spirit though the new birth. He forgives us our sins and cleanses us from them. Through the new Spirit, the Holy Spirit, we have the power to overcome sin in our lives and the power to live righteously. When we do fail, we turn to Christ for forgiveness so we can be cleansed of our wrongdoing and be back purified on the righteous path.

So it wasn't the legal status to God that had to be changed, but our sinful nature. God didn't sacrifice Christ to redeem us from his anger, but to free us from sin to live for him, in him, with him. So it's about an actual atonement and not about a legal standing.

As I asked earlier...
Does this Then beg the question of how man is born again ?

 

[corinth77777]

@zoidar
I am going to copy what I started on my face book post....

Hi corinth! I hold to the Classic theory called Christus Victor. This is my take on it:

Sin leads to death. The consequence of the sins of the world lead to Jesus crucifixion and death. But as we know death couldn't hold him, so he got resurrected and by this he overcame death and sin. He brought back mankind from the terrible position under the rule of Satan, back to God, to be under Christ's rule, since he by conquering sin was given the rightful power to set us free from sin.

By giving our lives to Christ, Christ becomes our master and he gives us his Spirit though the new birth. He forgives us our sins and cleanses us from them. Through the new Spirit, the Holy Spirit, we have the power to overcome sin in our lives and the power to live righteously. When we do fail, we turn to Christ for forgiveness so we can be cleansed of our wrongdoing and be back purified on the righteous path.

So it wasn't the legal status to God that had to be changed, but our sinful nature. God didn't sacrifice Christ to redeem us from his anger, but to free us from sin to live for him, in him, with him. So it's about an actual atonement and not about a legal standing.

 

[corinth77777]

@zoidar
I am going to copy what I started on my face book post....

I guess as I already made a presumptuous statement that every one will be delivered/saved but to what end.
All are resurrected....yet I can't go completely with where that thought leads for there must be a passage in the Old that somehow confirms it....Yet most pasages of salvation are about being delivered[saved] from present circumstances in their life time. so, then the obvious answer is not to focus ourselves with life after death, but life now. For the ultimate as you've lead to, is God wants to purify himself a people zealous of good works. This seems as you have aluded to, through us being transformed by she Spirit of God. As the passage: those led by the Spirit are son's of God.

 

[zoidar]

As I asked earlier...
Does this Then beg the question of how man is born again ?

My understanding is that when a person repents, makes Jesus Lord in one's life, he/she is given the Holy Spirit and is born again. If we live in an obedience/love/faith relationship with Christ, we know we are born again.

 

[zoidar]

I guess as I already made a presumptuous statement that every one will be delivered/saved but to what end.
All are resurrected....yet I can't go completely with where that thought leads for there must be a passage in the Old that somehow confirms it....Yet most pasages of salvation are about being delivered[saved] from present circumstances in their life time. so, then the obvious answer is not to focus ourselves with life after death, but life now. For the ultimate as you've lead to, is God wants to purify himself a people zealous of good works. This seems as you have aluded to, through us being transformed by she Spirit of God. As the passage: those led by the Spirit are son's of God.

I believe we are to focus on serving Christ here and now. Nothing wrong with thinking about heaven, but in my opinion questions about the end times and judgement are to big for anyone of us to handle. We live for Christ with heart and soul. That's what being a Christian is about.