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Featured Do You Follow the Teachings of Messiah?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by HARK!, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. Yes, I pray throughout my day, for Abba to give me the strength to do his will.

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  2. No, I'm under grace. I can do what's right in my own eyes, so long as I believe.

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  1. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    I'm suggesting that Paul saw that it did not matter either way for Timothy to be circumcised. That it was not a matter of faith and if the Jews wanted him to be circumcised it was not an issue of faith if timothy was circumcised(being a Jew). When we see a gentile trying to be constrained to be circumcised we see all the Apostles putting a stop to it in every case, since in every case mentioned they were trying to force it upon them as a matter of Salvation and faith rather than custom(as in the case of Timothy). Paul was not a deceiver, nor did I imply that.

    We only have Circumcision of the Heart brother, since to be outwardly circumcised or to be uncircumcised means nothing(as I quoted earlier from Paul).

    We see Timothy being compelled by the Jews as a Matter of Custom to be circumcised, not as a matter of faith.

    Baptism is not simply an outward sign, it is the crucifixion of the inward man, it is the cleansing and sanctifying of a man also in baptism. It has a very specific and necessary purpose spiritually, rather than simply being some outward sign. It is the means by which we are born again in Christ by water.

    Nowhere in the NT do find the Apostles giving a command for any gentile to be circumcised neither do we find any thing in the NT saying that an outward circumcision is in any way important(much to the contrary rather).

    Those Jews were keeping the Law of Moses brother, that is exactly what we told(Acts 15:5).

    God bless you brother
     
  2. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Timothy wasn't a jew. If he was a Jew he would have been circumcised on the 8th day. Scripture clearly says that his father wasn't a jew.
     
  3. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No we don't; and he was still keeping the Moedim.
     
  4. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You chopped off the end of the sentence. Why did you do that?
     
  5. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No we don't. Paul would not have continued in customs that Yahshua rebuked, the Talmud. Paul was not a heretic.
     
  6. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Neither is circumcision. It symbolizes the circumcision of the heart. It is a sign of the covenant of Abraham, forever.
     
  7. not under law

    not under law Active Member

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    See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!

    12 Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. Gal6:11-15
     
  8. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (CLV) Mt 15:24
    Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    (CLV) Hb 8:10
    "For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

    Yahshua was commissioned for the lost sheep of Israel. YHWH's covenant is with Israel.

    The same was with Moses. The Egyptians that followed him became Hebrews.

    Hebrew means to cross over.

    There is one law for the native and the sojourner.

    YHWH did not make covenant with the nations. We are all to be one in the Father in Yahshua. A house divided won't stand.
     
  9. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    Luke 1:6
    6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    It says they were both righteous before God, and that they walked(present tense) in all the commandments of the Lord blameless. It does not say they lived a sinless life, but rather that they were currently walking blameless before the Lord.
     
  10. not under law

    not under law Active Member

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    Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. Gal2:3-5
     
  11. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Again, Circumcision, like Baptism, are outward signs of what has already happened within.

    They mean nothing, if you are not reborn in Yahshua.
     
  12. StephenDiscipleofYHWH

    StephenDiscipleofYHWH Well-Known Member

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    "and none did truly understand until the Law was finished and their understanding was opened by the Spirit(Luke 24:45-47)"
    Luke 16:17 when paired with Matt 5:18 shows that Christ is saying that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one piece of the Law of Moses to be Fulfilled/completed without the rest.

    Matt 5:17-19 when read in context shows that it is because the Law of Moses is still in place that if a person teach contrary to the law they will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

    The law to which Yahshua is referring in Matt 7:21-23 is the Law of Christ which he spoke in parable to all people before his death.

    God bless brother
     
  13. not under law

    not under law Active Member

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    Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. Gal2:3-5
     
  14. not under law

    not under law Active Member

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    Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh Philhil3:2&3
     
  15. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I presented the CLV because it is a literal, word for word, translation.

    (CLV) Lk 1:6
    Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.
     
  16. not under law

    not under law Active Member

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    You do understand that if a person could have lived a sinless life Jesus need not have died at Calvary?
     
  17. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Excerpt: Paul on the Law: Galatians 2

    Continued from: Paul on the Law: Galatians 1

    Galatians 2 (CLV)
    1 Thereupon, after the lapse of fourteen years, I again went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus also along with me." 2 Now I went up in accord with a revelation, and submitted to them the evangel which I am heralding among the nations, yet privately to those of repute, lest somehow I should be racing or ran for naught." 3 But not even Titus, who is with me, being a Greek, is compelled to be circumcised." 4 Yet, it was because of the false brethren who were smuggled in, who came in by the way to spy out our freedom which we have in Christ Jesus, that they shall be enslaving us- "

    Titus was not forced to be circumcised. by the Ecclesia. He was new to the faith. This topic was covered in the Romans Series.

    Romans Chapter 4

    1 What, then, shall we declare that Abraham, our forefather, according to flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by acts, he has something to boast in, but not toward God." 3 For what is the scripture saying? Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness." 4 Now to the worker, the wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as a debt." 5 Yet to him who is not working, yet is believing on Him Who is justifying the irreverent, his faith is reckoned for righteousness."

    Abraham was justified by faith, before he was obedient to YHWH's law.

    (CLV) Gn 15:6
    Now Abram believed in Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

    Does that mean that in belief of YHWH's word, that he ignored YHWH's word?

    Of course not!

    (CLV) Gn 26:5
    inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

    (CLV) Ja 2:21
    Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

    (CLV) Ja 2:22
    You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

    (CLV) Ja 2:23
    And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

    Notice that Abraham came to faith BEFORE he was obedient to YHWH's law.

    Obedience to YHWH's law is the fruit of faith.

    These false brothers are Pharisees.

    (CLV) Ac 15:5
    Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

    They were practicing the Works of Law, their Tradition of Men, The Talmud; yet they were misunderstanding the Torah; and what YHWH proclaimed, concerning circumcision and Abraham.

    Yahshau rebuked the Pharisees for this practice of placing mans; law over YHWH;s Law.


    5 to whom, not even for an hour do we simulate by subjection, that the truth of the evangel should be continuing with you." 6 Now from those reputed to be somewhat-what kind they once were is of no consequence to me (God is not taking up the human aspect)-for to me those of repute submitted nothing. 7 But, on the contrary, preceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision,

    Those who were new to in faith in Yahshua; having not the benefit of being raised in observance to the Law of YHWH, much like Abraham.

    Abraham came to faith first; then came the outward sign.
     
  18. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You go with doctrine. I go with scripture.
     
  19. not under law

    not under law Active Member

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    Which goes to show, if you want to ignore, or explain away the plain words of the bible it is not so hard to do
     
  20. not under law

    not under law Active Member

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    You need to discern scripture, it is not enough just to copy paste it. The pharisees of Jesus day knew the letter of scripture inside and out, but they did not understand the message contained in the letter. Jesus died for believers sins, if anyone could not have committed sin Jesus obviously did not need to die at Calvary. So common sense should tell you, where Elizabeth and Zacheriah were concerned this was not including perfectly upholding the moral side of the law. Other rules, regulations, precepts yes.
     
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