...Do you even believe in Evolution in the first palce?

bhsmte · Jun 14, 2013

KWCrazy said:
I think an eight year old could answer this question.

The wages of sin are death. Forgiveness requires a sacrifice. Under the law, it was a perfect lamb or other such animal without blemish which had value. Sacrificing it deprived the sinner of wealth. It cost him something. The sacrifice showed obedience to God. Jesus was the lamb of God. He became the sacrifice for mankind. The person who denies Christ makes His death meaningless. And you wonder why God damns those who reject Him? It's never been easier to go to heaven. You aren't even in the Middle East, where belief in Christ can get you tortured and killed. Through faith, salvation must be earned. Damnation has already been earned.

Why would your God allow a world were belief in him would get them tortured and killed? Kind of puts certain people at a disadvantage to avoid damnation, doesn't it?

Your all powerful, loving all good God, didn't do a very good job at making sure the right word was spread across the world to save people. Damn those billions of people who pray to a different God (they just happened to be born in the wrong culture to the wrong parents), no matter how good a life they live and help others, they are screwed. Don't see a great deal of morality in that.

bhsmte · Jun 14, 2013

KWCrazy said:
Because God said it, I need no further evidence.

Unlike you, I've encountered God. I've eaten with Him. I've been to His house. I read His book. I know His son. His Holy Spirit is with me. I've witnessed things science would claim to be impossible. What began with faith has been re-affirmed so many times I absolutely KNOW that God is real and that the Bible is His word.

You who deny Him really don't even have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

Great, please share your experiences (as I am sure God would want you to).

-How exactly did you encounter God?
-How do you know his son?
-What have you witnessed (be specific) that science would claim to be impossible?
-What evidence do you have that the bible is God's word?
-What did you eat with God? What did he eat?
-What is God's house like?

HitchSlap · Jun 14, 2013

KWCrazy said:
I think an eight year old could answer this question.

I think you're missing the point entirely, as there are zero contemporary or near-contemporary sources recording that a Jew named Jesus was crucified (which is odd, because the Jews as a culture stoned people for capital punishment; crucifixion is a Roman thing).

TLK Valentine · Jun 14, 2013

KWCrazy said:
I think an eight year old could answer this question.

The wages of sin are death. Forgiveness requires a sacrifice.

Says who?

Under the law, it was a perfect lamb or other such animal without blemish which had value.

So -- want forgiveness? Kill a sheep.

Sacrificing it deprived the sinner of wealth. It cost him something.

And cash is unacceptable because...?

KWCrazy · Jun 14, 2013

bhsmte said:
Why would your God allow a world were belief in him would get them tortured and killed? Kind of puts certain people at a disadvantage to avoid damnation, doesn't it?

There are things in this world that do not exist of their own accord.
Darkness is the absence of light.
Cold is the absence of heat.
Bouyancy is the relative absence of weight.
Evil is the absence of God.

The actions of evil people are the result of evil people. Evil is the result of man separating himself from God. Sickness and death are part of man's inheritance because God gave man only one rule and that was too much for him. Man's rebellion fulfilled the warning of God, that in the day man ate from the forbidden fruit, death was certain. The wages of sin are death and each of us will pay that price. God offers the spirit eternal life, but the body is doomed.

As for those who lose their lives for His sake, they will be rewarded greatly in heaven for their faith. It takes a lot of faith to accept death rather than to renounce Christ.

Your all powerful, loving all good God, didn't do a very good job at making sure the right word was spread across the world to save people.

He commisioned us to do so.

Damn those billions of people who pray to a different God (they just happened to be born in the wrong culture to the wrong parents), no matter how good a life they live and help others, they are screwed.

You notice that they don't sacrifice animals to God either, so they live up to neither the law nor to Grace. Those who die never knowing God are destroyed. Those who can make a choice and reject Him are damned. Will some Muslims escape Hell? Probably. Maybe even most. Judgment is God's domain. They will never be welcomed in Heaven, but perhaps they will avoid Hell. The same can be said of Hindu's Bhuddists and Jews who reject Christ. The same can be said of make-believe Christians who mouth the words but deny Christ in their hearts.

pjnlsn · Jun 14, 2013

KWCrazy said:
There are things in this world that do not exist of their own accord.
Darkness is the absence of light.
Cold is the absence of heat.
Bouyancy is the relative absence of weight.
Evil is the absence of God.

The actions of evil people are the result of evil people. Evil is the result of man separating himself from God. Sickness and death are part of man's inheritance because God gave man only one rule and that was too much for him. Man's rebellion fulfilled the warning of God, that in the day man ate from the forbidden fruit, death was certain. The wages of sin are death and each of us will pay that price. God offers the spirit eternal life, but the body is doomed.

As for those who lose their lives for His sake, they will be rewarded greatly in heaven for their faith. It takes a lot of faith to accept death rather than to renounce Christ.

He commisioned us to do so.

You notice that they don't sacrifice animals to God either, so they live up to neither the law nor to Grace. Those who die never knowing God are destroyed. Those who can make a choice and reject Him are damned. Will some Muslims escape Hell? Probably. Maybe even most. Judgment is God's domain. They will never be welcomed in Heaven, but perhaps they will avoid Hell. The same can be said of Hindu's Bhuddists and Jews who reject Christ. The same can be said of make-believe Christians who mouth the words but deny Christ in their hearts.

It is unlikely and unproven that any deity exists.

KWCrazy · Jun 14, 2013

HitchSlap said:
I think you're missing the point entirely, as there are zero contemporary or near-contemporary sources recording that a Jew named Jesus was crucified (which is odd, because the Jews as a culture stoned people for capital punishment; crucifixion is a Roman thing).

Jesus was crucified under Roman law by the order of Pontius Pilot, at the request of the Jewish leaders because He taught differently than they believed.

KWCrazy · Jun 14, 2013

bhsmte said:
Great, please share your experiences (as I am sure God would want you to)

And I'm sure you will make light of it, which will make you seem to think yourself somehow profound.

-How exactly did you encounter God?
I was introduced to God by my grandmother, who demonstrated that a person could live a Godly life and remain faithful despite living in a world surrounded by evil.

-How do you know his son?
He's my personal savior. He led a perfect life when I could not, and then He suffered and died on a cross so that I could have eteranl life. I thank Him often for that, but not often enough.

-What have you witnessed (be specific) that science would claim to be impossible?
I've personally seen demons.
I've witnesses an exorcism.
I've been in a home occupied by demonic spirits.
I've cast those spirits out in the name of Jesus. Interestingly, when a demon leaves a dwelling they frequently leave a trace. In this case there were sporadic char marks around a door frame with no other evidence of a fire; like someone had held a torch to some parts while the rest was perfect.
I've seen things move without any force of any kind being applied to them.
I have prayed very specific prayers and had them answered.

I could go on, but you get the picture. There is an entire thread devoted to miracles that people in this forum have experienced.

-What evidence do you have that the bible is God's word?
50 years of confiormation.
-What did you eat with God? What did he eat?
He doesn't eat, but He is with us whenever three or more are gathered in His name. I think He particualrly likes church pot lucks.
-What is God's house like?
Check it out for yourself next Sunday. He has many of them.

bhsmte · Jun 14, 2013

KWCrazy said:
There are things in this world that do not exist of their own accord.
Darkness is the absence of light.
Cold is the absence of heat.
Bouyancy is the relative absence of weight.
Evil is the absence of God.

The actions of evil people are the result of evil people. Evil is the result of man separating himself from God. Sickness and death are part of man's inheritance because God gave man only one rule and that was too much for him. Man's rebellion fulfilled the warning of God, that in the day man ate from the forbidden fruit, death was certain. The wages of sin are death and each of us will pay that price. God offers the spirit eternal life, but the body is doomed.

As for those who lose their lives for His sake, they will be rewarded greatly in heaven for their faith. It takes a lot of faith to accept death rather than to renounce Christ.

He commisioned us to do so.

You notice that they don't sacrifice animals to God either, so they live up to neither the law nor to Grace. Those who die never knowing God are destroyed. Those who can make a choice and reject Him are damned. Will some Muslims escape Hell? Probably. Maybe even most. Judgment is God's domain. They will never be welcomed in Heaven, but perhaps they will avoid Hell. The same can be said of Hindu's Bhuddists and Jews who reject Christ. The same can be said of make-believe Christians who mouth the words but deny Christ in their hearts.

No matter how you rationalize it, God did no favors to billions of people if what you say is true. If he loves what he supposedly created, he would have made sure everyone had the same opportunity, but they didn't - not very moral. If God cared, he would have made sure this "commissioning" worked, but christianity has not reached parts of the world to the same level as local religions.

Lastly, your God also did a very poor job at making sure his divine word was written down accurately for all to see and to preserve original texts of the new testament, but we only have copies of copies, that were copied hundreds of years after Jesus' time and they are loaded with errors, deletions and additions compared to the oldest copies in existence. His divine word is also loaded with numerous contradictions, immoral acts and obvious errors, which crater credibility and give you one logical conclusion - man made religion, man made book, man made motivations.

KWCrazy · Jun 14, 2013

pjnlsn said:
It is unlikely and unproven that any deity exists.

It is very likely and well proven that I'm tired of your redundant babbling and so will remove you to the ignore list. I get enough of that from my two year old grandson, only he can also be a bundle of joy.

bhsmte · Jun 14, 2013

KWCrazy said:
And I'm sure you will make light of it, which will make you seem to think yourself somehow profound.

-How exactly did you encounter God?
I was introduced to God by my grandmother, who demonstrated that a person could live a Godly life and remain faithful despite living in a world surrounded by evil.

-How do you know his son?
He's my personal savior. He led a perfect life when I could not, and then He suffered and died on a cross so that I could have eteranl life. I thank Him often for that, but not often enough.

-What have you witnessed (be specific) that science would claim to be impossible?
I've personally seen demons.
I've witnesses an exorcism.
I've been in a home occupied by demonic spirits.
I've cast those spirits out in the name of Jesus. Interestingly, when a demon leaves a dwelling they frequently leave a trace. In this case there were sporadic char marks around a door frame with no other evidence of a fire; like someone had held a torch to some parts while the rest was perfect.
I've seen things move without any force of any kind being applied to them.
I have prayed very specific prayers and had them answered.

I could go on, but you get the picture. There is an entire thread devoted to miracles that people in this forum have experienced.

-What evidence do you have that the bible is God's word?
50 years of confiormation.
-What did you eat with God? What did he eat?
He doesn't eat, but He is with us whenever three or more are gathered in His name. I think He particualrly likes church pot lucks.
-What is God's house like?
Check it out for yourself next Sunday. He has many of them.

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

Strathos · Jun 14, 2013

AV1611VET said:
No one's.

Jesus was born of a virgin, and thus bypassed having a sin nature.

Else He, too, would be in need of a Saviour.

You think Jesus was only sinless because of that? I don't think it's really that simple.

Hypothetical question: If scientists managed to clone a human being from the cells of a virgin, would that clone be sinless?

As for the "Adam was created as an adult proves embedded age" idea, if there was really an entire false history given to the world then, wouldn't Adam and Eve have been created with parents, who would either be still alive, or dead and buried somewhere? And their parents would have had parents, who would have had parents, so on and so forth. How come such a thing isn't mentioned anywhere?

pjnlsn · Jun 14, 2013

KWCrazy said:
It is very likely and well proven that I'm tired of your redundant babbling and so will remove you to the ignore list. I get enough of that from my two year old grandson, only he can also be a bundle of joy.

It is still unlikely and unproven that any deity exists.

AV1611VET · Jun 14, 2013

Strathos said:
You think Jesus was only sinless because of that?

Isn't that good enough?

Strathos said:
I don't think it's really that simple.

Simple or complex -- Jesus didn't have the sin nature.

Strathos said:
Hypothetical question: If scientists managed to clone a human being from the cells of a virgin, would that clone be sinless?

Hypothetical answer: No. Since sin resides in the flesh, and the flesh was cloned, then the clone would also have the sin nature. In addition, the clone would not be a true human being, as it would have a body, but lack a soul & spirit.

Strathos said:
As for the "Adam was created as an adult proves embedded age" idea, if there was really an entire false history given to the world then, wouldn't Adam and Eve have been created with parents, who would either be still alive, or dead and buried somewhere?

I suppose so; but since there was no false history given to the world, then we won't know, will we?

Strathos said:
And their parents would have had parents, who would have had parents, so on and so forth.

Sounds good to me.

Strathos said:
How come such a thing isn't mentioned anywhere?

Because the world wasn't created with a false history.

Embedded Age is: maturity without history -- false or otherwise.

pjnlsn · Jun 14, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Isn't that good enough?

Simple or complex -- Jesus didn't have the sin nature.

Hypothetical answer: No. Since sin resides in the flesh, and the flesh was cloned, then the clone would also have the sin nature. In addition, the clone would not be a true human being, as it would have a body, but lack a soul & spirit.

I suppose so; but since there was no false history given to the world, then we won't know, will we?

Sounds good to me.

Because the world wasn't created with a false history.

Embedded Age is: maturity without history -- false or otherwise.

It is unlikely and unproven that any deity exists at all, including attendant concepts such as 'sin.'

In fact, it is not hard to create or rework one's belief system so as to make it seem more believable or persuasive in a context, or as to be relatively complete (in a certain way) and without internal contradiction. All it means is that the speaker has some modicum of creativity.

For ultimately, the thing in question is unlikely to exist at all.

super animator · Jun 14, 2013

pjnlsn said:
For ultimately, the thing in question is unlikely to exist at all.

Basing on what exactly? I think your confusing your certainty of your disbelief than an actual fact.

Edit: another general apologetic thread, oh boy.

AV1611VET · Jun 14, 2013

pjnlsn said:
It is unlikely and unproven that any deity exists at all, including attendant concepts such as 'sin.'

In fact, it is not hard to create or rework one's belief system so as to make it seem more believable or persuasive in a context, or as to be relatively complete (in a certain way) and without internal contradiction. All it means is that the speaker has some modicum of creativity.

For ultimately, the thing in question is unlikely to exist at all.

Wouldn't this be better addressed to Strathos, than me?

He's the one that asked the questions.

AV1611VET · Jun 14, 2013

super animator said:
Basing on what exactly? I think your confusing your certainty of your disbelief than an actual fact.

Edit: another general apologetic thread, oh boy.

I think he's employing what is called Große Lüge.

In other words, he is trying to convince himself, not us, that 'the thing in question is unlikely to exist at all.'

super animator · Jun 14, 2013

AV1611VET said:
I think he's employing what is called Große Lüge.

I don't think that's even closed to being accurate. (Have you read your own link?)

AV1611VET · Jun 14, 2013

super animator said:
I don't think that's even closed to being accurate. (Have you read your own link?)

It's the idea that if a person repeats something enough times, he will end up believing it.

...Do you even believe in Evolution in the first palce?

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