Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

[fwGod]

No, not something else. That's the first coming of Christ that all of us here believe in, including me.

You being Amil, for all I knew you connected it with something preterist. So I needed clarification.

His second coming is not ever specifically called "the second coming of Christ". One time it refers to Him appearing a second time (Heb 9:28).

And I in one of my previous posts gave the reference of the disciples asking Jesus when he would be coming at the end of the age... ie, the coming of Christ. Which you totally ignored.

When He came almost 2,000 years ago that was His first coming. Why do you not accept that "the coming of the Lord" referenced in 1 Thess 4:15 is His second coming?

Because I'm not Amil.

Let's put this method of interpretation to the test. I'm talking about the method of interpretation you're using here which says that if one detail in one passage is missing from another passage then the two passages can't be speaking of the same event.

I assume you believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-21 are both speaking of the same event, the second coming of Christ, right?

Rev is the immediate second coming. The Mat text is not known how long afterward of the second coming.

You are reading both texts as if the Mat text immediately follows Rev 19.

Well, there is no mention of the gathering of the elect in Revelation 19:11-21, so that means Matthew 24:29-31 can't be referring to the same event as Revelation 19:11-21, right?

Did you see text in Rev 19 that in any way is similar to Mat.24:29-31?

No. It's just three verses. The book of Matthew was written to Jews who'd be familiar with the passages from old testament texts. (I won't continue that because it'd derail the thread. And make this post too long. Do your own study on it if you need clarification.)

The entire account in Revelation of Jesus Second Coming takes up all of that chapter.
What Mat does is hit the highlights while Revelation gives more detail so the time between the arrival of Christ and when he calls the elect to him is extended compared to what it says in Matthew.

The Second Coming of Christ involves him defeating all of the enemy and thoroughly clearing the earth of them before the elect in a place of protection are called to him. Revelation 20:1-6 is the binding of satan for one thousand years.

Rev 20 only hints that during those thousand years the elect along with all the nations will live and perform their various duties while Jesus is on the earthly throne.

At least, that would be true using the same kind of logic you're using to conclude that Revelation 19:11-21 can't refer to the time of the rapture.

The discussion has been between Rev.19 and 1 Thes.4 and 5.
You have brought in Mat.24:29-31 which has different content in it. So it's not like Rev.19.

When comparing each individual text, each will determine where it fits in the overall plan of God.

You mean other than the reference to "the coming of the Lord" in 1 Thess 4:15? I guess that's some other coming of Christ besides the second coming?

Yes. Because the context only speaks of the rapture event of the believers being caught up to be with the Lord.

I'm saying that passages like 1 Thess 4:13-5:6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Matt 24:29-31 and Rev 19:11-21 are all referring to the second coming of Christ.

2 Thes.1:7-8 is the second coming, and the destruction of the evil ones.

2 Thes.2:1 begins his further teaching on the rapture which Paul spoke of in 1 Thes.4:13-18.

Mat.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-14 are not the same events.

Are you just completely oblivious to any view but your own?

Yes I am. Aren't you?

Do you perhaps have a reading comprehension problem?

It must be that you equate that to being converted.

Is that the reason why you're not understanding what I'm telling you about what I believe?

Wait a minute.. all this time you've rejected many times with harsh disgust all that I've said that I believe.. I've not ever asked you to or questioned you why you don't understand what I believe.. but now you are concerned that I'm not understanding what you say that you believe?
That's a double standard.

I'm not required to understand what you believe, I totally reject what you believe. What is this discussion for? Neither of us is going to change what we each believe?

I said that I believe 1 Thess 4:13-5:9 is one narrative which speaks both of what happens to believers on the day Christ returns (caught up to meet the Lord in the air)

The unwritten part that you left out is that you consider it to happen on the same day of the second coming.

But there is no text to describe the second coming in any of 1 Thes. 4 or 5. Not anywhere in the entire book of 1 or 2 Thes.

and also what happens to unbelievers on that same day He returns ("sudden destruction" comes upon them from which "they shall not escape").

The text does not say that it's the same day. You are assuming that it does. You are making it say what it doesn't.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The testimony was believed on the day that the testimony was given. That the Thessalonian saints will be with Paul in heaven, then come with Jesus in the second coming to take vengeance on all who are on earth who don't know God. That matches up with Revelation 19.

Do you believe that verse 10 of this passage refers to what will happen at the rapture,

To be glorified in the saints.. my Bible has the reference of 1 Cor.3:13.

which is that Christ will "be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe...in that day"?

The dot dot dot is not in the Bible verse to separate "believe" and "in that day". That's you working so hard to get the Bible to seem to agree with your Amil theology.

If so,

That's an assumption.

what do verses 7-9 say will also happen on that day?

That's a hope to lead me into the Amil thinking.
2 Thes.1:4-5 is present day (their present day) before the rapture. The love and the persevering even as the apostle Paul did in Rev.1:9, and what Jesus said to the Philadelphia church 3:10. Even as Paul said to the Thessalonian church in 2 Thes.1:3.
Then Paul picked up again in 2 Thes.2:1 to teach again in the rapture in 1-7.

Where does Revelation 19 use the words "second coming"?

Where does 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 5:9-11 use the words "second coming"?.

Revelation 19 says anything about Him coming to the earth.

Does 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 5:9-11 say anything about Him coming to the earth?

Revelation 19:15 "He rules them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God." Anyone who's ruled people and tread the wine press does so while on the earth. Rev.20:4 "Those who has not received the mark of the beast came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

What did Jesus say about the Jewish leaders who didn't believe in Matthew 23?

Even so Jesus ministry was directed to the Jews, his own people first. It was only the leaders who poo-pooed Jesus. Every other Jew crowded around him and thousands gathered to hear him preach and teach.

Why do you give them special treatment when Jesus Himself didn't?

You forget all the Jews that he ministered to? Only a very few Gentiles requested anything of Jesus.

Of course, we want all Jewish unbelievers to repent and believe just like all unbelievers, but God is not a respecter of persons. Why are you?

God being no respecter of person's means that he treats all alike.. you are asking why the Jews should be given as much grace and loving consideration as the Gentiles.

The Jews are the natural olive tree, not the Gentiles. When the Gentiles got the same experience as on the day of Pentecost Peter then said that it was because God is no respecter of person's. Before that he and all Jews considered all Gentiles to be compared to the unkosher foods forbidden to eat. Jesus called the Syrophoenician woman a dog.

Clearly.. the question should be.. why do the Gentiles get special treatment from God?

Both speak of a gathering of believers at the coming of Christ. I would say 1 Thess 4:13-18 has just as much in common with Matthew 24:29-31 as Revelation 19:11-21 does, yet you choose to only see Revelation 19:11-21 as being the same event and not 1 Thess 4:13-18. That seems very selective on your part.

On the contrary, 1 Thes.4:13-18 has nothing in common with Mat.24:29-31. Nor do either have anything in common with Rev.19.

To be selective is to think other than what the Bible indicates as you- the Amil theology does, that all have something in common with each other.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don't lock myself into "one proof text" because the pretrib rapture theology can be started by whichever text that any end-times prophecy teacher may choose to begin with.

So in that way I'm not like you and spiritual Jew who do begin with the exact same Bible text. It must be that you were taught by the same Amil teachers who always start with the same ole same ole without any individual variety whatsoever.

I say too,

Not having a cookie cutter proof text does not indicate a deception with the doctrine. You only erroneously use it to say that it does. Your opinion fails.
You have not proved that. So according to your way of measuring things, your goal has not been successful.

I was not taught Amil. I found it. I was taught Pretrib. I realized that the Book did not say what I was taught.

 

[jeffweedaman]

There's the other gospel text that Jesus spoke in Lk.21:36 of being worthy to escape. Again many pretribbers apply that according to pretrib rapture theology. But again, it more likely refers to something in the Jewish theology.

We will escape catastrophe just like Noah escaped. We are still here to the bitter end praying we will have the strength to see the tribulation through.


Lk 21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. 36 But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Matt 24
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

[jeffweedaman]

jeff, I have no idea why you are tying in Jesus's atonement for sin on the cross with the timing of the rapture.

You said the rapture takes place before the 70th week. #634
Our Lord atones for sin in the 70th week, so how can he come again to glorify us before he takes away our sins through the shedding of his blood?

 

[Cj5]

There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.

Rapture is just a word given to explain, it translates as caught up

 

[Douggg]

You said the rapture takes place before the 70th week. #634
Our Lord atones for sin in the 70th week, so how can he come again to glorify us before he takes away our sins through the shedding of his blood?

What I wrote was that the rapture could take place before the 70th week begins.

Fulfillment of the 70th week is future.

Jesus's death on the cross and resurrection on the third day was 2000 years ago.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What I wrote was that the rapture could take place before the 70th week begins.

Fulfillment of the 70th week is future.

Jesus's death on the cross and resurrection on the third day was 2000 years ago.




View attachment 290497

Not so! If Daniel 9:24 is not fulfilled during the earthly ministry of Christ, when and in what way will Christ fulfil this in the future?

If the continuance of sin and iniquity is your argument for rejecting a historic fulfilment of this in Christ, when and in what way will Christ:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

 

[Timtofly]

That not what you said. You said everyone is the elect. That is nonsense.

No it is not. They have been. Does not mean they want to be or forced to be. Elect does not mean finalized. It means God shows no favor when it comes to His Atonement.

Perhaps you have "elect" mixed up with God’s "chosen" people to advance His plans on earth. His main plan was the Atonement, but not the only plan concerning earth.

 

[Timtofly]

I am of the pretrib rapture theology.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't second hand use me to address yourself to the Amillers that may be on this forum.

Well most posters here just attack other posters and never really defend or portray their own beliefs, and guessing just gets me in trouble. I guess guessing will have to just make other posters upset with my posting style. Especially if no one can answer a direct question.

 

[Douggg]

(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?

v24 "to seal up the vision...."

The vision is identified in v21-23, the one Daniel had seen Gabriel in the vision in Daniel 8, regarding the 2300 days of the vision of the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice sacrifice, and committing the transgression of desolation, and the temple cleansed of those things that will have made it desolate. Time of the end.

The 2300 days have to fit within the 2520 day 70th week. And be in the time of the end.

 

[Timtofly]

You originally claimed stars are angels.

God created the stars, and the angels.
They are not the same thing, even though "stars" are a symbol of the angels in the Book of Revelation.
See Revelation 1:20.

No, I said the angels are those stars God threw in as an afterthought into the firmament. Those lights in the sky that science in grade school taught you one thing, is just part of Satan's deception. John explains it in the 6th Seal in Revelation 6. Whenever the Bible mentions the symbolic term star, God is referring to the angels.

Stars as gas giants are not real. Angels are real. Revelation 1:20 claims the angels are stars. So no, the stars are not angels, but angels are the stars. But is there really an issue if one calls a star an angel and an angel a star? They are the same thing and saying one means the other is really not an issue, unless you really want to make an issue out of God's Word on the matter? I guess it is my word against Satan's knowledge he fed humanity. Especially if one does not trust God's Word. I think it is between God and Satan, not about me. Scripture seems pretty clear and straightforward to me.

 

[sovereigngrace]

v24 "to seal up the vision...."

The vision is identified in v21-23, the one Daniel had seen Gabriel in the vision in Daniel 8, regarding the 2300 days of the vision of the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice sacrifice, and committing the transgression of desolation, and the temple cleansed of those things that will have made it desolate. Time of the end.

The 2300 days have to fit within the 2520 day 70th week. And be in the time of the end.

You are reading too many Pretrib manuals instead of God's Word. That is why you are confused. Bin your charts and open your Bible and you will see what is true.

The thought embodied within the phrase “to seal” is derived from the ancient custom of attaching a seal to a document to show that it was genuine. In Esther 8:7 we see king Ahasuerus instruct Esther to “write” to the Jews “as it liketh you, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's ring.” This was the royal stamp of confirmation. A seal is essentially a confirmation of authenticity and entitlement.

This is also seen in 1 Kings 21:8 when Jezebel “wrote letters in Ahab's name, and sealed them with his seal, and sent the letters unto the elders and to the nobles.” Jeremiah 32:10-11 records how Jeremiah purchased land, whereupon he testified, “I subscribed the evidence, and sealed it, and took witnesses, and weighed him the money in the balances. So I took the evidence of the purchase, both that which was sealed according to the law and custom, and that which was open.” A seal therefore is essentially a confirmation.

When we view Daniel’s prophecy in this light we see that Christ’s appearance authenticated everything written of Him in the Old Testament Scriptures. Romans 15:8 tells us, “Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers.” His first advent was God’s eternal confirmation of salvation for mankind.

His first advent was God’s eternal confirmation of salvation for mankind. He was the long-anticipated Messiah. He was the hope they were obsessively fixed on. His 1st Advent put a stand on the veracity of every single OT prophecy, because He fulfilled it right down to the last detail.

John the Baptist said in John 3:33 about Christ, “He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.”

Christ fulfilled everything that was written of Him in the visions and prophecies of the Old Testament. This was demonstrated on this earth right from His mother’s womb to His appearances after the resurrection. John the Baptists father Zacharias prophesied, when Mary was 3 months pregnant with Christ, “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began.”

When Christ was brought into the temple at 8 days old, Simeon testified that He was the “consolation of Israel.” John the Baptist introduced Christ in John 1:31, as “he that was to be he should be made manifest to Israel.” He was the desire of every true Israelite from the beginning. Acts 28:20 describes Him as “the hope of Israel.” He is the eternal fulfilment of the vision and prophecy.

Of course, later in His ministry Christ confirmed that “the prophets and the law prophesied until John” (Matthew 11:13)

When Philip met Him he testified, “We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph” (John 1:45). Christ said in John 5:39, “Search the Scriptures … they are they which testify of me."

Throughout the New Testament we repeatedly see it confirmed that Christ was the heavenly seal of the “vision and prophecy” of God. The book of Matthew illustrates this well:

Matthew 1:22 records, “all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet.”

Matthew 2:15 says, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet.”

Matthew 2:23 declares, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets.”

Matthew 4:14 says, “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet.”

Matthew 8:17 says, “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet.”

Matthew 12:17 says, “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet.”

Matthew 13:35 records, “That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.”

Matthew 21:4 declares, “All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.”

Matthew 26:56 says, “all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”

Matthew 27:35 says, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet.”

Christ’s every word, deed and action was at heaven’s behest and in fulfilment of heaven’s desire. Christ’s whole life involved divine appointments. Providence, destiny and purpose were written all over everything He did on this earth. Nothing was lucky or a coincidence.

1 Peter 1:10-11: “the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

After His resurrection, Christ spoke to the disciples at different times from the Old Testament, showing He was the eternal fulfilment. In Luke 24:21-27 Christ joined two disheartened disciples on the Emmaus road. After testifying to the risen Christ in their presence that they had trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel” Christ then began to teach them in verse 27 from the Old Testament, we learn, “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Then He opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."

Later in the chapter He spoke to more of the disciples, in Luke 24:44-45, saying, “And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.”

 

[sovereigngrace]

Well most posters here just attack other posters and never really defend or portray their own beliefs, and guessing just gets me in trouble. I guess guessing will have to just make other posters upset with my posting style. Especially if no one can answer a direct question.

No one does that more than you.

 

[sovereigngrace]

v24 "to seal up the vision...."

The vision is identified in v21-23, the one Daniel had seen Gabriel in the vision in Daniel 8, regarding the 2300 days of the vision of the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice sacrifice, and committing the transgression of desolation, and the temple cleansed of those things that will have made it desolate. Time of the end.

The 2300 days have to fit within the 2520 day 70th week. And be in the time of the end.

If the continuance of sin and iniquity is your argument for rejecting a historic fulfilment of this in Christ, when and in what way will Christ:

(1) "finish the transgression"?
(2) "make an end of sins"?
(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"?
(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"?
(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"?
(6) "anoint the most Holy”?

 

[Douggg]

If the continuance of sin and iniquity is your argument for rejecting a historic fulfilment of this in Christ, when and in what way will Christ:

My argument is that the 70 weeks, specifically the 70th week, is still unfulfilled because of the 2300 day vision involving the little person.

 

[sovereigngrace]

My argument is that the 70 weeks, specifically the 70th week, is still unfulfilled because of the 2300 day vision involving the little person.

That does not make sense. History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. There is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

 

[Timtofly]

Because, detailed as it was, it was still opinion in the face of Scripture, & somewhat incorrect. If Jesus was going to heaven at His death, he woulda said so. And God gave David the words that He would not leave Jesus' soul in hades in Psalm 16:10, which was repeated in Acts 2:27. (The KJV is full of goofs & booboos; one of them is often mistranslation sheol/hades as 'hell'.)

And again, Jesus plainly said that He & the thief would, that day, be in PARADISE. So, plainly, paradise is a part of hades, as affirmed by both Jesus & His Father.

Why would God put Paradise and Abraham's bosom in the same place? Paradise was guarded by an angel with a flaming sword to let no soul in. Sorry but Paradise went to heaven, not sheol. Sheol was for Satan and those who followed him. Paradise is God's temple in heaven. The OT humanity in Abraham's bosom left the captivity of sheol and entered Paradise in heaven. They did not walk across the "street" in sheol from Abraham's bosom to Paradise. Jesus never confused Abraham's bosom with Paradise. No human soul or body could enter Paradise until the Atonement on the Cross.

 

[robycop3]

Why would God put Paradise and Abraham's bosom in the same place? Paradise was guarded by an angel with a flaming sword to let no soul in. Sorry but Paradise went to heaven, not sheol. Sheol was for Satan and those who followed him. Paradise is God's temple in heaven. The OT humanity in Abraham's bosom left the captivity of sheol and entered Paradise in heaven. They did not walk across the "street" in sheol from Abraham's bosom to Paradise. Jesus never confused Abraham's bosom with Paradise. No human soul or body could enter Paradise until the Atonement on the Cross.

No, Jesus went to paradise at His death, not heaven. He returned to heaven later. Clearly, paradise isn't heaven, & hades isn't there, either.

 

[robycop3]

That does not make sense. History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. There is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

The countdown was paused at Jesus' death/resurrection, not to resume til the antichrist comes to power,no matter how many years it takes.

 

[Timtofly]

Non-Dispy commentators are in wholesale agreement that this refers to the persecution of the Romans against the growing early church, which become a threat to the Roman Empire. Read about the persecution under Nero, Domitian and Trajan and you will see what we are talking about.

The main issue s: you have still not addressed any of my points that challenge the Pretrib understanding of Rev 3:10. The fact is, you have nothing in the text. It is all in your head. You have this Pretrib paradigm in your mind, but zero Scripture to support it. That is why you cannot address any of the points Amils are presenting. That is classic Pretrib. It is extra-biblical. Pretribbers must wing it.

(1) There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You force that into the text. There is no mention of a rapture in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text. There is no mention of a 7-year tribulation in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text. There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.

(2) Pretrib makes Christ out to be a liar because he never kept His promise to the Philadelphian church.

(3) The Philadelphian church were promised protection in not removal from the Roman persecution.

The Pretribulation interpretation of the word as ‘to remove or take away’ is shown to be totally untenable. It butchers the literal meaning of the word. It gives it a connotation that cannot in any way fit with its usage elsewhere in Scripture. In fact, it forces it to mean the opposite to what it actually means. Applying the Pretrib meaning to other texts that use the same word ends up changing the whole meaning and sense of multiple Scriptures. In fact, many end up saying the opposite to what they are actually saying. Let us look at some examples.

Contrasts

To highlight the irrational and nonsensical nature of Pretrib hermeneutics. We need to apply their mistaken interpretation to other passages that carry the same Greek word.

Matthew 19:17 reads: “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, (tēreō) keep the commandments.”

Pretrib would have Matthew 19:17 read: “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, (tēreō) remove or take away the commandments.”

This would be absurd. It expresses the opposite meaning to what is intended.

John 8:51 reads: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man (tēreō) keep my saying, he shall never see death.”

Pretrib would have John 8:51 read: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man (tēreō) remove or take away my saying, he shall never see death.”

John 15:10-20 reads: “If ye (tēreō) keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have (tēreō) kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love … Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have (tēreō) kept my saying, they will (tēreō) keep yours also.”

Pretrib would have John 15:10-20 read: “If ye (tēreō) remove or take away my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have (tēreō) removed or taken away my Father's commandments, and abide in his love … Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have (tēreō) removed or taken away my saying, they will (tēreō) remove or take away yours also.”

Ephesians 4:3 reads: “Endeavouring to (tēreō) keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”

Pretrib would have Ephesians 4:3 read: “Endeavouring (tēreō) to remove or take away the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”

Philippians 4:7 reads: “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall (tēreō) keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

Pretrib would have Philippians 4:7 read: “And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall (tēreō) remove or take away your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”

2 Timothy 1:12 reads: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able (teros) to keep that which I have committed unto him
against that day.”

Pretrib would have 2 Timothy 1:12 read: “For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able (tēreō) to remove or take away that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jude 1:24 reads: “Now unto him that is able (tēreō) to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”

Pretrib would have Jude 1:24 read: “Now unto him that is able (tēreō) to remove or take away you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.”

Conclusion

Pretrib butchers the actual meaning of the Greek word under discussion and attributed the opposite meaning to what it indicates.

You have a very vivid imagination. You actually used those arguments to back up your pre-trib theology?