Do you believe in the “caught up together” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

[Bible Highlighter]

There are a lot of folks who deny the Rapture altogether. They say the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible and thus it means there is no Rapture. I am here to say that there is an event that sounds a lot like the Rapture, but I am going to call it by it's biblical name.

The “caught up together” event.
If you don't believe this event is biblical, it can be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. The words “caught up together” is taken from the Bible.
Do you deny this passage or portion of Scripture?
Does it not sound like a Rapture event?
Even if the name Rapture does not appear in the Bible, the event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 seems a lot like the Rapture.

 

[jeffweedaman]

The caught up together event is the glorification of both the dead saints and the living saints in a twinkling of an eye at Jesus coming a second time.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The caught up together event is the glorification of both the dead saints and the living saints in a twinkling of an eye at Jesus coming a second time.

Where does Scripture say that this event happens at the Second Coming of Christ?

 

[Christian Gedge]

If we want the biblical name its called the “resurrection.” But if we want to make a distinction between the dead and the living on that day, I have no problem saying that living believers are “raptured.” They are going up together; that’s the main thing.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes, those still alive will be resurrected up after the dead rise first.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, those still alive will be resurrected up after the dead rise first.

I see two different types of resurrections in Scripture for believers. One is a spiritual body type resurrection (like being that of angels) so as to enter Heaven, and the second resurrection is a flesh and blood body type resurrection (that takes place in two phases). One flesh and blood bodily resurrection happens at the beginning of the Millennium, and the second happens after the Millennium.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If we want the biblical name its called the “resurrection.” But if we want to make a distinction between the dead and the living on that day, I have no problem saying that living believers are “raptured.” They are going up together; that’s the main thing.

The words “caught up together” is taken verbatim from 1 Thessalonians 4:17. It does not get any more biblical than that, my friend.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Where does Scripture say that this event happens at the Second Coming of Christ?

There are so many.
When Christ appears we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. (Glorified )
Jesus must remain in heaven until the restoration of ALL things. That includes our glorification and restoration when he descends from heaven ...Act 3 ,1thess 4, 2 thess 1 etc.

 

[jeffweedaman]

I see two different types of resurrections in Scripture for believers. One is a spiritual body type resurrection (like being that of angels) so as to enter Heaven, and the second resurrection is a flesh and blood body type resurrection (that takes place in two phases). One flesh and blood bodily resurrection happens at the beginning of the Millennium, and the second happens after the Millennium.

No.
Read John 5. The Spiritual resurrection "now is" for all who will ever believe.

 

[com7fy8]

I see

I would say you are clear, what you are saying.

What I have is Paul speaks of "the resurrection" > 2 Timothy 2:18 > this is what I would say @Christian Gedge is talking about.

This says "the" resurrection . . . not "a" or "one of the". So, I take it to mean there is one resurrection event for Christians, which is of body and soul and spirit > 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

But you deal with what happens for one's spirit if a person dies before the bodily resurrection. I am open to the possibility that souls go to heaven, going by Revelation 6:9-11; and this is what I understand you mean by the spirit being resurrected first. But that is spiritual, individual, and not the whole body of Jesus as one being resurrected when He returns for His bride church.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are so many.
When Christ appears we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. (Glorified )

1 John 3:2 does not indicate the timing of Christ's appearance. Which appearance are you talking about?

Revelation 6:16 describes one such appearance, and it says,
“And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:” (Revelation 6:16).

What about Revelation 19? It says,
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head weremany crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19:11-14).

The armies in Heaven follow Jesus when He is revealed.
Yet, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 this happens instead.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

This event called the “caught up together” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does not sound like the same event where Jesus appears in the clouds with the saints following Him into battle. What I am asking is: Can you find the event that sounds like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and line up with a similar event in Scripture that describes the Second Coming? For me: They sound like entirely two different events.

So there are three apperances of our Lord:

1. One appearance is Jesus sitting on the throne (Revelation 6:16).
2. Another appearance is Jesus on a white horse with his saints following Him (Revelation 19:11-14).
3. Another appearance is Jesus descending from Heaven and meeting the faithful saints in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

Jesus must remain in heaven until the restoration of ALL things. That includes our glorification and restoration when he descends from heaven ...Act 3 ,1thess 4, 2 thess 1 etc.

Care to quote the exact words in the passages or verses that say what you are saying?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No.
Read John 5. The Spiritual resurrection "now is" for all who will ever believe.

Paul says there is a natural body and a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44), and then he later starts talking about what sounds like a Rapture event (1 Corinthians 15:51-53).

 

[com7fy8]

Read John 5. The Spiritual resurrection "now is" for all who will ever believe.

hmmm . . .

Our Apostle Paul does say > in Ephesians 2:4-7 >

God "raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I would say you are clear, what you are saying.

What I have is Paul speaks of "the resurrection" > 2 Timothy 2:18 > this is what I would say @Christian Gedge is talking about.

This says "the" resurrection . . . not "a" or "one of the". So, I take it to mean there is one resurrection event for Christians, which is of body and soul and spirit > 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

But you deal with what happens for one's spirit if a person dies before the bodily resurrection. I am open to the possibility that souls go to heaven, going by Revelation 6:9-11; and this is what I understand you mean by the spirit being resurrected first. But that is spiritual, individual, and not the whole body of Jesus as one being resurrected when He returns for His bride church.

1. Body: I see the body as being the physical flesh and blood body we have.
2. Spirit: I see the spirit as a spiritual body or representation of ourself in the spirit realm (Note: Paul says there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body - 1 Corinthians 15:44).
3. Soul: The mind, will, and emotions (the core essence of who were are that controls both the body and the spirit).

There are several keys in Scripture that describe a spiritual resurrection (Rapture), and a flesh and blood bodily resurrection that the OT saints knew about. One clue is left to us by the Lord Himself.

Note: The words in blue below refer to the spiritual body type resurrection to Heaven (i.e. the Rapture event) (i.e. having bodies like that of angels), and the words in red refer to the resurrection of the dead (i.e. the physical flesh and blood body type resurrection).

“For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matthew 22:30-32).

 

[jeffweedaman]

1 John 3:2 does not indicate the timing of Christ's appearance. Which appearance are you talking about?

Revelation 6:16 describes one such appearance, and it says,
“And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:” (Revelation 6:16).

What about Revelation 19? It says,
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head weremany crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19:11-14).

The armies in Heaven follow Jesus when He is revealed.
Yet, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 this happens instead.

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

This event called the “caught up together” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does not sound like the same event where Jesus appears in the clouds with the saints following Him into battle. What I am asking is: Can you find the event that sounds like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and line up with a similar event in Scripture that describes the Second Coming? For me: They sound like entirely two different events.

So there are three apperances of our Lord:

1. One appearance is Jesus sitting on the throne (Revelation 6:16).
2. Another appearance is Jesus on a white horse with his saints following Him (Revelation 19:11-14).
3. Another appearance is Jesus descending from Heaven and meeting the faithful saints in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).



Care to quote the exact words in the passages or verses that say what you are saying?

There is only one appearance ( coming ) of the Lord to restore all things and every eye will see it. Every ear will hear the trumpet ( shout / voice ). One will either weep for Joy or gnash their teeth on this great day of God.

act 3
18 But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.


Our glorification at the restoration of all things clearly takes place when the ungodly are eternally separated on that same day at that same event of the Lords one and only appearing in the glory of his Father a second time.



2 thess 1
5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is only one appearance ( coming ) of the Lord to restore all things and every eye will see it. Every ear will hear the trumpet ( shout / voice ). One will either weep for Joy or gnash their teeth on this great day of God.

act 3
18 But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Jesus shows Himself in Revelation 6:16. He is sitting on the throne. Yet, this is not the same event described in Revelation 19, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Post Trib does not make any sense.
In this view, you have to fit these events in a short span of time.

1. Jesus descends from Heaven and meets the saints in the air.
2. Then later He rides a white horse down from Heaven and the saints are following Him.

Also, God's people are not appointed unto Wrath.
We can pray so as to escape all the things mentioned by Jesus Himself in regards to the things in Tribulation. No man knows the day or the hour.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Jesus shows Himself in Revelation 6:16. He is sitting on the throne. Yet, this is not the same event described in Revelation 19, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

When Jesus comes with his Angels he will then sit on his throne and Judge all.


Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;


Jude

　14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”



Matt 16
Jesus said...,
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.


2Thess 1

This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

 

[Timtofly]

The caught up together event is the glorification of both the dead saints and the living saints in a twinkling of an eye at Jesus coming a second time.

This is the 5th and 6th Seal event in Revelation 6.

 

[Timtofly]

Where does Scripture say that this event happens at the Second Coming of Christ?

Revelation 6:9-17

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Sovereign Ruler, HaKadosh, the True One, how long will it be before you judge the people living on earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been.
12 Then I watched as he broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake, the sun turned black as sackcloth worn in mourning, and the full moon became blood-red.
13 The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the earth’s kings, the rulers, the generals, the rich and the mighty — indeed, everyone, slave and free — hid himself in caves and among the rocks in the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne and from the fury of the Lamb!
17 For the Great Day of their fury has come, and who can stand?"

The Second Coming is going to happen when all least expect it, and will leave those still standing on the earth, crying out in terror.

Most of the churches today are expecting the Second Coming at a certain point clearly defined by Satan's 42 months and the vials of wrath. It is call post trib, that is post Satan's 42 months. There is nothing other than the next Millennium after the battle of Armageddon. Jesus claimed 1990 years ago He will not come when that generation is expecting Him, and now we see He was telling the truth. They are expecting a time that is not the Second Coming.

One group say the rapture is different than the Second Coming, so they are not expecting the Second Coming. The other group just have both events in the wrong place.