Do you believe in predestination ?

[Brightfame52]

This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:28-30


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres no word of Salvation without predestination.

 

[enoob57]

I do not believe in hard determinism of Calvinism... thus Romans 8:29 states what that predestination was...

 

[trophy33]

Not just in predestination (salvation), but even in predetermination (every action, thought, movement is pre-established).

 

[Neostarwcc]

Not just in predestination (salvation), but even in predetermination (every action, thought, movement is pre-established).

Ditto. I don't buy that God didn't foreknow and preplan our lives. The Bible says that God is sovereign over all. It is impossible to make a wrong decision every decision was pre planned out by God.

That includes salvation as well.

 

[martymonster]

There are so much in scripture in about predestination, and nothing about free will, but what do most people do? The take the free will doctrine and reject the doctrine of predestination.

The reason people do this, is because the come to the scriptures with a the preconceived idea of free will and try and fit certain verses around it. It's very silly. You simple cannot make those verses gel with your idea of free will... and there's a lot of them too.

Here's just a few.


Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Isa 10:13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
Isa 10:14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.


And there are plenty more where they came from too.

 

[St_Worm2]

Not just in predestination (salvation), but even in predetermination (every action, thought, movement is pre-established).

Ditto. I don't buy that God didn't foreknow and preplan our lives. The Bible says that God is sovereign over all. It is impossible to make a wrong decision every decision was pre planned out by God.

Hello myst33 et Neostarwcc, I am hoping that I can get you two to elaborate a bit about what you just said, particularly the words that I put in bold.

As a for instance, are you saying/do you believe that God is the proximate cause of every sin that is committed by man (whether reprobate or saint)? IOW, when we sin, is it God making us sin, even His saints, or do you mean something else by the terms, "pre-established" and "pre planned", and if so, what exactly is that?

Thanks

God bless you!

--David

 

[trophy33]

As a for instance, are you saying/do you believe that God is the proximate cause of every sin that is committed by man (whether reprobate or saint)? IOW, when we sin, is it God making us sin, even His saints, or do you mean something else by the terms, "pre-established" and "pre planned", and if so, what exactly is that?

God is no more the cause of sin than the river's current is the cause of the retardation of a heavy loaded ship. The cause of sin is in the creature's imperfections.

He is the substance of everything in the universe though, because in Him we move, live and exist (Acts 17:28).

 

[Petros2015]

Predestination: "You! Yes you over there! I'm not giving you a choice, because if I did, you'd just choose wrong"

 

[HTacianas]

This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:28-30


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres no word of Salvation without predestination.

In total, the only solid conclusion that can be reached is that God has predestined for Himself a people. If otherwise we would not be told, among other things, to "make your calling and election sure", see 2 Peter 1:10. If our election was already sure we would not have to do anything to make it sure.

 

[martymonster]

In total, the only solid conclusion that can be reached is that God has predestined for Himself a people. If otherwise we would not be told, among other things, to "make your calling and election sure", see 2 Peter 1:10. If our election was already sure we would not have to do anything to make it sure.

Um, no... it's that you don't know if your election is sure. God knows who is though.

 

[HTacianas]

Um, no... it's that you don't know if your election is sure. God knows who is though.

That's a point we can agree on.

 

[John Mullally]

This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

You neglect to include Ephesians 1:1-2 to support your assertion. Those verses are addressed to those who are predestined to adoption (v5) as His Children - it is the faithful in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
​

Although God desires all men to be saved and Jesus was given as a ransom for all humanity, He has left many decisions up to men.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

 

[Clare73]

This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:28-30


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres no word of Salvation without predestination.

I believe Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5 and Ephesians 1:11.

 

[Doug Brents]

This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:28-30


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres no word of Salvation without predestination.

“Predestination is an explicitly biblical doctrine. Free will is not directly taught in Scripture. If the question is predestination vs. free will, predestination wins decisively, biblically speaking. If the question is predestination vs. will or predestination vs. responsibility, that is more difficult. God is sovereign over everything, including who is saved. Concurrently, we are genuinely responsible for our decisions related to salvation. In the Bible, God repeatedly calls on us to exercise our will and trust in Christ for salvation, and we should pursue obedience to those commands regardless of how well we do or don’t understand predestination.”
I quote the above because I think it accurately depicts the issue at hand. Yes, God is sovereign, but He is not the author of sin. In Him there is only righteousness. He cannot sin, but He did make us (and the angels) with the capacity to sin. He also gave us a will, and a responsibility to choose Him over self. Most people choose self.

God, in His omnipotence and omniscience, knew the end even before the beginning. But He also gave us the ability to, in our limited understanding and power, choose Him. He declares Himself through all of the natural world, and so calls to every man (so no man has an excuse for not choosing Him.

He wants those of us who love Him to spend eternity with Him in Heaven, and He wants all of us to love Him. And He knew from the beginning that most would not love Him. But He wants those of us who do love Him so much that He was willing to condemn the rest to have us.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Acts 13:48,"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

"It is up to God whether I find myself in a world in which I am predestined ; but it is up to me whether I am predestined [to salvation] in the world in which I find myself."
God chooses which feasible world to actualize ; in every feasible world God gives sufficient grace to every person for salvation.

"On Behalf of a Molinist Perspective | Gracepoint Church - San Francisco"
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[Rapture Bound]

HTacianis replied [post #9],"2 Peter 1:10. If our election was already sure we would not have to do anything to make it sure."

My Reply :

If you read the broader context of 2 Peter 1:10, you will find that this verse [2 Peter 1:10] is not declaring that a person cannot have assurance of their election to salvation [in the case that you are implying that any elect person will lose or forfeit their salvation]. Rather, it is a solemn plea to examine ourselves to determine if our faith is genuine [i.e. "have we ever actually experienced a justified status before God?", that is, "have we genuinely been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and experienced the new birth of John 3:3?"].

How do I know this to be true? There are many other passages of scripture that clearly tell us that genuine believers can and do possess assurance of their election to salvation [Romans 8:16; 1 John 4:13; 5:11-13; 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5, "Knowing brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."]

see post #55 - page 3 - "The Genuineness of your Faith" : Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

also, see post #92 - page 5 - "Make Your calling and Election sure - A Reply to prophecy uk - Part 3" :
Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

 

[disciple Clint]

Ditto. I don't buy that God didn't foreknow and preplan our lives. The Bible says that God is sovereign over all. It is impossible to make a wrong decision every decision was pre planned out by God.

That includes salvation as well.

foreknowledge is not predestination, God knows what will happen, He is not removing your free will.

 

[trophy33]

foreknowledge is not predestination, God knows what will happen, He is not removing your free will.

Foreknowledge of the creator about the outcome He is going to create equals predetermination, because He created what he foreknew.

Your point would be valid only if God was not also the creator.

 

[disciple Clint]

Foreknowledge of the creator about the outcome He is going to create equals predetermination, because He created what he foreknew.

Your point would be valid only if God was not also the creator.

Foreknowledge Doesn’t Require Predestination

 

[trophy33]

Foreknowledge Doesn’t Require Predestination

"Knowledge of the event does not necessarily have a causal link to the determination of that event. "

I agree, only the knowledge - no. But the knowledge of the one who creates everything and in whom exists everything - yes.

Foreknowledge would not mean predetermination only if God was not the creator of everything.

The article does not address this properly, it addresses only that God knows also "what will happen if...".

And I am not a Calvinist.