Do you believe in predestination ?

[Carl Emerson]

We choose what we want, but this choosing is not random or unpredictacle, but is certain, based upon various reasons like taste, mood, knowledge or life conditions.

And then again, these reasons are not random and unpredictable, but have their specific causes and those causes have their causes etc leading back to the initial conditions in the beginning of the universe.

This position would seem to eliminate personal responsibility.

If this were the case God's judgement would be in question.

Yes it applies to original sin which Jesus has atoned for.

But your position is contradictory because you want to say we choose and at the same time say our choices are determined. It can't be both.

 

[trophy33]

This position would seem to eliminate personal responsibility.

Our personal responsibility is in the fact that we are not forced to choose this or that, we do it freely.

The choice is certain/predictable, but is not forced upon us or necessary.

 

[trophy33]

But your position is contradictory because you want to say we choose and at the same time say our choices are determined. It can't be both.

Its just a misunderstanding.

Example: If I put a bottle of water before somebody who is thirsty in a desert, then its certain and predictable that he will accept it and drink it.

But his freedom is still in play, I do not force him to drink it.

Certainity of outcome or predictibility do not equal slavery or lack of personal responsibility. We always incline to one option more than to another, or else we would not be able to choose anything.

 

[TedT]

Predestination: "You! Yes you over there! I'm not giving you a choice, because if I did, you'd just choose wrong"

ImCo:

Predestination is NOT causal but predictive.
Reject HIM and go to hell.
Accept HIM and be saved from sin.

GOD predicted the fate of certain choices before us and then waited for us to believe HIM or not... We choose our FATES and GOD predetermined our LIVES to take us into the fate we chose...

 

[TedT]

“Predestination is an explicitly biblical doctrine. Free will is not directly taught in Scripture.

Since the end result of the whole story of God's relationship with HIS creation is the heavenly marriage,
and
since no true marriage (nor true love) can be forced upon the Bride but must be chosen without coercion, ie, by a free will, then the free will of HIS creation as able to accept HIS claims and HIS proposal of marriage OR able to reject HIM as a liar and a false god and so rebuke him as a proper husband, is an absolute necessity.

That sinners have no free will but are enslaved to the addictive power of evil until rebirth is also evident.

 

[TedT]

Our personal responsibility is in the fact that we are not forced to choose this or that, we do it freely.

Does not our addiction to enslaving evil not coerce our decisions? John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

The ability to choose does not equate to a free will if the choices are constrained in our will to always turn to evil.

I accept the absolute necessity of a free will but don't believe sinners can enjoy it until their rebirth or was Christ babbling about the enslaving power of sin?

 

[martymonster]

Depends on how we define "free will". If properly (= we are not forced), then it really exists.

If wrongly (= our actions are random and unpredictable even for God) then it really does not exist.

Source? Verse?

It sounds like you are suggesting a kind of limited free will, in which case, there is no such thing as limited free will. A will that is limited is not free. It literally makes no sense!

The only reason the free will doctrine exists, is because the eternal punishment doctrine exists. If you have an eternal punishment doctrine, then you must also have a free will doctrine, otherwise you make God out to be a monster, which is exactly what you get with Calvinism. The problem you have then, is that you're stuck trying reconcile your free will doctrine with other doctrines that conflict with it, leading to the invention of nonsensical ideas, such a "limited free will"

Pro 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

 

[martymonster]

This makes a mockery of judgement.

Obedience yields reward.

Care to explain how it makes a mockery of judgment?

 

[Doug Brents]

Scripture does not say that all mankind has been enabled by God, it says just the opposite.

Fact 1: "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

Fact 2: "All whom the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

Fact 3: "All" do not come to him.

Conclusion: "All" are not enabled to come to him.

God says there is no one with an excuse for denying the existence of God (Romans 1:19) and worshipping idols (Romans 1:22).
Not the same thing.

Just because the Father doesn’t give ALL to the Son, does not mean that He didn’t not give ALL the opportunity to turn to Him and be saved.

The 3 facts you state are true. But they do not all refer to the same groups of people, nor are #1 and #2 incompatible.
All have been enabled, but enabled does not equal given to the Son. Of those who have been enabled, only some will choose God over self, and they are those given to the Son.

 

[Petros2015]

GOD predicted the fate of certain choices before us and then waited for us to believe HIM or not...

Unless you are Paul.
Then you get knocked off your high horse.

 

[Doug Brents]

False statement, the ones God calls are predestinated Justified and glorified Rom 8:29-30

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I see what you are saying. And I am not in any way trying to say you are wrong. God is sovereign, and has determined who will and who will not be saved (whether that is by His choosing who to save and who to condemn, or by His giving us the choice and "calling" those who answer).
But your focus on the predestination of man tends to overlook and eliminate the responsibility of Mankind to respond to God for salvation. It is very clear in Scripture that only those who obey God will be saved. Does God cause us to obey like a puppeteer controls a puppet? Or has He given us our own will, and then given us enough evidence in nature, and in the Scriptures, to hear His call and answer Him.
I believe that it is the latter. I believe that His "call" is open to everyone, and those who hear and obey the call are the ones who will be saved.

My point is that continually focusing on predestination leads to a fatalistic attitude that not only do we not need to obey, but we don't even need to evangelize, because what is the point of seeking the lost and trying to win them for Christ if they were never going to be saved anyway. And if they are going to be saved, then they will be saved if we bring them the Word or not. But that is a very unBiblical attitude.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Care to explain how it makes a mockery of judgment?

What you suggest results in judgement being against God's own actions.

 

[disciple Clint]

You are not addressing what I am saying.

Again - only foreknowledge what you will do does not equal predetermination. I agree.

Foreknowledge what you will do and then creation of everyting that leads you to do it - that is what we call predetermination.

Creator of everything, who knows everything what will happen in his creation, makes it predetermined from the beginning, because He has chosen it to exist.

While God can accomplish His desires, His love for me causes Him to respect my free will decisions. I think we disagree but that's ok.

 

[disciple Clint]

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Sorry, but a potter having power of the clay, doesn't exactly scream mere "foreknowledge"

Until you read the commentary and understand what exactly God is saying.
Romans 9:21 Commentaries: Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

 

[disciple Clint]

In Scripture, God's foreknowledge is not looking ahead down the corridors to time and seeing what man is going to do. God's foreknowledge is of what he is going to do. (Acts 2:23, Acts 4:28; Isaiah 37:26; Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 3:17)

"Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (Acts 15:18)

"I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (declared) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (accomplished what he predestined)." (Isaiah 48:3)

And I am a Paulist.

God knows everything, He is unlimited, one of His fundamental characteristic is omniscience. 138 Bible verses about God, All Knowing

 

[martymonster]

Until you read the commentary and understand what exactly God is saying.
Romans 9:21 Commentaries: Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

A commentary? Oh yay, the teachings of men!

 

[disciple Clint]

A commentary? Oh yay, the teachings of men!

Much better to be educated by man that to walk in blindness.

 

[martymonster]

What you suggest results in judgement being against God's own actions.

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Imagine if God actually judged Israel for these things?

Exo 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

Did not God harden Pharaoh's heart and then judge him for his actions?

Also, Paul directly adresses what you are saying, in Romans.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[martymonster]

Much better to be educated by man that to walk in blindness.

It's the blind leading the blind.

 

[disciple Clint]

It's the blind leading the blind.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;