Do you believe in predestination ?

[disciple Clint]

"Knowledge of the event does not necessarily have a causal link to the determination of that event. "

I agree, only the knowledge - no. But the knowledge of the one who creates everything and in whom exists everything - yes.

Foreknowledge would not mean predetermination only if God was not the creator of everything.

The article does not address this properly, it addresses only that God knows also "what will happen if...".

And I am not a Calvinist.

since God works outside of time, He will know that I accepted Jesus but His knowing that did not cause me to accept Jesus.

 

[trophy33]

since God works outside of time, He will know that I accepted Jesus but His knowing that did not cause me to accept Jesus.

You are not addressing what I am saying.

Again - only foreknowledge what you will do does not equal predetermination. I agree.

Foreknowledge what you will do and then creation of everyting that leads you to do it - that is what we call predetermination.

Creator of everything, who knows everything what will happen in his creation, makes it predetermined from the beginning, because He has chosen it to exist.

 

[Cute Peonies]

Not just in predestination (salvation), but even in predetermination (every action, thought, movement is pre-established).

Ditto. I don't buy that God didn't foreknow and preplan our lives. The Bible says that God is sovereign over all. It is impossible to make a wrong decision every decision was pre planned out by God.

That includes salvation as well.

There are so much in scripture in about predestination, and nothing about free will, but what do most people do? The take the free will doctrine and reject the doctrine of predestination.

The reason people do this, is because the come to the scriptures with a the preconceived idea of free will and try and fit certain verses around it. It's very silly. You simple cannot make those verses gel with your idea of free will... and there's a lot of them too.

Here's just a few.


Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Isa 10:13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
Isa 10:14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

And there are plenty more where they came from too.

It takes some level of humility to admit that, kudos to you. Most people prefer hiding behind the free will concept because it gives them a sense of control in their life and unconsciously a subtle lack of trust in God.

Free will exists to some extent but in the bigger picture of one's life I'd say many things were predetermined. It doesn't take years to realise that.

.As a for instance, are you saying/do you believe that God is the proximate cause of every sin that is committed by man (whether reprobate or saint)? IOW, when we sin, is it God making us sin, even His saints, or do you mean something else by the terms, "pre-established" and "pre planned", and if so, what exactly is that?
--David

God "doesn't make you sin" per se but sometimes we go through sinful behaviours for a reason. And many people in the Bible were actually sinners but it didn't stop God for choosing them to accomplish many great things, for example David adultery. So did God made him sin? ... I would say that it was part of the plan.

Mark 2:17
17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

God wants all the glory (and He absolutely deserves that) so if we're already that perfect obedient believer then what is He gonna save us from?

 

[martymonster]

foreknowledge is not predestination, God knows what will happen, He is not removing your free will.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Sorry, but a potter having power of the clay, doesn't exactly scream mere "foreknowledge"

 

[martymonster]

It takes some level of humility to admit that, kudos to you. Most people prefer hiding behind the free will concept because it gives them a sense of control in their life and unconsciously a subtle lack of trust in God.

Free will exists to some extent but in the bigger picture of one's life I'd say many things were predetermined. It doesn't take years to realise that.



God "doesn't make you sin" per se but sometimes we go through sinful behaviours for a reason. And many people in the Bible were actually sinners but it didn't stop God for choosing them to accomplish many great things, for example David adultery. So did God made him sin? ... I would say that it was part of the plan.

Mark 2:17
17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

God wants all the glory (and He absolutely deserves that) so if we're already that perfect obedient believer then what is He gonna save us from?

Hi Cute Peonies, as much as I'd like to just agree with you, that answer is no, we don't have any freewill. God has our life mapped out from beginning to end.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ditto. I don't buy that God didn't foreknow and preplan our lives. The Bible says that God is sovereign over all. It is impossible to make a wrong decision every decision was pre planned out by God.

That includes salvation as well.

This makes a mockery of judgement.

Obedience yields reward.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Hello myst33 et Neostarwcc, I am hoping that I can get you two to elaborate a bit about what you just said, particularly the words that I put in bold.

As a for instance, are you saying/do you believe that God is the proximate cause of every sin that is committed by man (whether reprobate or saint)? IOW, when we sin, is it God making us sin, even His saints, or do you mean something else by the terms, "pre-established" and "pre planned", and if so, what exactly is that?

Thanks

God bless you!

--David

Good to see you Stworm!

No, I'm not saying God is the author of sin but God does use our sins for good. An example of this is Joseph. God used the intended sins of his brothers for Joseph's own good. Even Paul says that all things work together for good for the elect.

What I mean by everything is predetermined is more like for an example, if we win the lottery or not, what school we go to, who we marry, where we live, what we do for a job, and yes even our eternal destinies. The end of Covid is also been determined by God. These kinds of things are God planned and carried out by God. The origin of sin is the devil so it is the devils fault that we sin. After all, he was the one who trapped and decieved us.

 

[Brightfame52]

You neglect to include Ephesians 1:1-2 to support your assertion. Those verses are addressed to those who are predestined to adoption (v5) as His Children - it is the faithful in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
​

Although God desires all men to be saved and Jesus was given as a ransom for all humanity, He has left many decisions up to men.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

I didnt neglect anything.

 

[Clare73]

“Predestination is an explicitly biblical doctrine. Free will is not directly taught in Scripture. If the question is predestination vs. free will, predestination wins decisively, biblically speaking. If the question is predestination vs. will or predestination vs. responsibility, that is more difficult. God is sovereign over everything, including who is saved. Concurrently, we are genuinely responsible for our decisions related to salvation. In the Bible, God repeatedly calls on us to exercise our will and trust in Christ for salvation, and we should pursue obedience to those commands regardless of how well we do or don’t understand predestination.”
I quote the above because I think it accurately depicts the issue at hand. Yes, God is sovereign, but He is not the author of sin. In Him there is only righteousness. He cannot sin, but

He did make us (and the angels) with the capacity to sin.
He also gave us a will, and a responsibility to choose Him over self.
Most people choose self.

God, in His omnipotence and omniscience, knew the end even before the beginning. But He also gave us the ability to, in our limited understanding and power, choose Him. He declares Himself through all of the natural world, and so calls to every man (so no man has an excuse for not choosing Him.

He wants those of us who love Him to spend eternity with Him in Heaven, and He wants all of us to love Him. And He knew from the beginning that most would not love Him. But He wants those of us who do love Him so much that He was willing to condemn the rest to have us.

Are you not giving what Scripture does not give, the ability of unregenerate man to submit to God's law?

Keeping in mind that "the unregenerate sinful mind is naturally hostile to God; i.e., rejecting him and choosing self when it pinches. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful mind (the not born again) cannot please God." (Romans 7:7-8) Only faith in his Son pleases God.

There is no "choosing" God apart from the enabling power of the Holy Spirit, because it is contrary to man's sinful nature.
"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

That's what "Free will is not taught in Scripture" means.

 

[Clare73]

foreknowledge is not predestination, God knows what will happen, He is not removing your free will.

In Scripture, God's foreknowledge is not looking ahead down the corridors of time and seeing what man is going to do. God's foreknowledge is of what he is going to do. (Acts 2:23, Acts 4:28; Isaiah 37:26; Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 3:17)

"Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (Acts 15:18)

"I foretold (predestined) the former things long ago,
my mouth announced (declared) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (accomplished what he predestined)." (Isaiah 48:3)

And I am a Paulist.

 

[Doug Brents]

Are you not giving what Scripture does not?

Keeping in mind that "the unregenerate sinful mind is naturally hostile to God; i.e., rejecting him and choosing self when it pinches. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful mind (the not born again) cannot please God." (Romans 7:7-8) Only faith in his Son pleases God.

There is no "choosing" God apart from the enabling power of the Holy Spirit, because it is contrary to man's sinful nature.
"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

That's what "Free will is not taught in Scripture" means.

All mankind has been called, and enabled to answer, by God. Else there would be some excuse able to be given. But God says there is no one with an excuse (Rom 1:20).

God is sovereign and can control ALL things that happen. And, God does not want a single soul to be lost (2 Pet 3:8-10). But most will be. So either God spoke falsely (either he directly condemns some or He doesn’t want all to be saved), or He gave a blanket to all and those who answer (the ones He knew would from the beginning) are saved. I think Scripture is clear that it is the second option.

 

[Clare73]

All mankind has been called, and enabled to answer, by God.

Scripture does not say that all mankind has been enabled by God, it says just the opposite.

Fact: "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

Fact: "All whom the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

Fact: "All" do not come to him.

Conclusion: "All" are not enabled to come to him.

Else there would be some excuse able to be given. But God says there is no one with an excuse (Rom 1:20).

God says there is no one with an excuse for denying the existence of God (Romans 1:19) and worshipping idols (Romans 1:22).
Not the same thing.

 

[YeshuaFan]

This is the million dollar question. Most in mans religions dont believe in this doctrine, or they believe it in a man centered way that deny the Sovereignty of God, but nevertheless its a Salvation Doctrine. In a book and chapter primarily about Salvation Paul writes Eph 1:3-6

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:28-30


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Theres no word of Salvation without predestination.

Believe in Calvinism, but not the Hyper form of it!

 

[trophy33]

Free will exists to some extent

that answer is no, we don't have any freewill. God has our life mapped out from beginning to end.

Depends on how we define "free will". If properly (= we are not forced), then it really exists.

If wrongly (= our actions are random and unpredictable even for God) then it really does not exist.

 

[Clare73]

Depends on how we define "free will". If properly (= we are not forced), then it really exists.

If wrongly (= our actions are random and unpredictable even for God) then it really does not exist.

Free will, according to the philosophy used by Pelagius, who around the fourth century first asserted the necessity of free will for man to be responsible for sin, is defined as the power to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

Unregenerate man prefers self-will over submission to God, and that is what he chooses.
There must be a change in his disposition (what he prefers) to enable him to choose submission to God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Lets please look at Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Unto the adoption of Children or the placing as a Son.

Paul writes in Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children/sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus

This therefore tells us that Faith in Christ Jesus, which reveals ones Son-ship with God comes as a result of having been predestinated unto the adoption of Sons.

So Faith in Christ is a blessing of predestination ! And yet many so called believers dont even believe in predestination !

 

[trophy33]

Free will, according to the philosophy used by Pelagius, who around the fourth century first asserted the necessity of free will for man to be responsible for sin, is defined as the power to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

Unregenerate man prefers self-will over submission to God, and that is what he chooses.
There must be a change in his disposition (what he prefers) to enable him to choose submission to God.

We choose what we want, but this choosing is not random or unpredictacle, but is certain, based upon various reasons like taste, mood, knowledge or life conditions.

And then again, these reasons are not random and unpredictable, but have their specific causes and those causes have their causes etc leading back to the initial conditions in the beginning of the universe.

 

[Brightfame52]

All mankind has been called, and enabled to answer, by God. Else there would be some excuse able to be given. But God says there is no one with an excuse (Rom 1:20).

God is sovereign and can control ALL things that happen. And, God does not want a single soul to be lost (2 Pet 3:8-10). But most will be. So either God spoke falsely (either he directly condemns some or He doesn’t want all to be saved), or He gave a blanket to all and those who answer (the ones He knew would from the beginning) are saved. I think Scripture is clear that it is the second option.

False statement, the ones God calls are predestinated Justified and glorified Rom 8:29-30

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Free will, according to the philosophy used by Pelagius, who around the fourth century first asserted the necessity of free will for man to be responsible for sin, is defined as the power to choose voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

Unregenerate man prefers self-will over submission to God, and that is what he chooses.
There must be a change in his disposition (what he prefers) to enable him to choose submission to God.

The problem with this definition is that it doesn't take into account that free will always operates within limits.

Man is created with finite means.

He also is born into a world that presents limitations on his activities.

Therefore absolute free will is a myth.

However he does have the power to choose within the limitations presented.

 

[Carl Emerson]

False statement, the ones God calls are predestinated Justified and glorified Rom 8:29-30

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.