Do you believe in Creationism or Evolutionism?

[Buzzard3]

Which means that evening and morning does not mean a literal day then. I agree with @1an that day means stage or era , not literal 24- hour day.

In Genesis 1:14-18, the "day" and "days" and "night" are obviously literal:

"And God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the DAY from the NIGHT; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for DAYS and years, and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the DAY, and the lesser light to rule the NIGHT; he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, to rule over the DAY and over the NIGHT, and to separate the light from the darkness."

That being so, it would seem strange to me if the author intended "day" in the rest of Genesis be read non-literally.

 

[Job 33:6]

In Genesis 1:14-18, the "day" and "days" and "night" are obviously literal:

"And God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the DAY from the NIGHT; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for DAYS and years, and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the DAY, and the lesser light to rule the NIGHT; he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, to rule over the DAY and over the NIGHT, and to separate the light from the darkness."

That being so, it would seem strange to me if the author intended "day" in the rest of Genesis be read non-literally.

The question must be asked.

Do you think that the firmament/dome is literal too? With little windows in it that opened to release flood waters, then later closed to re-restrain the waters of the heavens above at the end of the flood? As per Genesis.

 

[Buzzard3]

The question must be asked.

Do you think that the firmament/dome is literal too? With little windows in it that opened to release flood waters, then later closed to re-restrain the waters of the heavens above at the end of the flood? As per Genesis.

I don't, but maybe the author did.

 

[Job 33:6]

I think that it's fair to ask then, in the verse quoted"
"And God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the DAY from the NIGHT"

How is it that you feel confident that day and night are meant to be taken literally, yet the firmament, a concept described in the very same verse, is not literal?

Literally real lights are placed into a non-literal dome? Then the non-literal dome separates the literally real day and night?

It seems like a matter of picking and choosing. This word is literal, that word isn't. This other one is, but that last one isn't, all in a single verse.

On what grounds can we say that at first a verse is describing something not literally true, but then turn and say that the verse then switches to describing something literally true?

I wouldn't agree that it's obvious that the verse is describing literal truth when there are words in the verse that we agree aren't actually literally true.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The question must be asked.

Do you think that the firmament/dome is literal too? With little windows in it that opened to release flood waters, then later closed to re-restrain the waters of the heavens above at the end of the flood? As per Genesis.

why must that question be asked? Seems a diversion technique.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I think that it's fair to ask then, in the verse quoted"
"And God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the DAY from the NIGHT"

How is it that you feel confident that day and night are meant to be taken literally, yet the firmament, a concept described in the very same verse, is not literal?

Literally real lights are placed into a non-literal dome? Then the non-literal dome separates the literally real day and night?

It seems like a matter of picking and choosing. This word is literal, that word isn't. This other one is, but that last one isn't, all in a single verse.

On what grounds can we say that at first a verse is describing something not literally true, but then turn and say that the verse then switches to describing something literally true?

I wouldn't agree that it's obvious that the verse is describing literal truth when there are words in the verse that we agree aren't actually literally true.

The word day is used later in the Scriptures as well and its meaning is clear. Israel was instructed to count off days for festivals, etc. These actual days as defined by both today's standards and those from the beginning are recognized as such in even as late as the NT Scriptures.
You cannot add meanings to a word such as day only because of disbelief or one can eventually write off all of Scripture as fables and tales by one's own choosing.
I Corinthians 4:5-6:
5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

 

[roman2819]

In Genesis 1:14-18, the "day" and "days" and "night" are obviously literal:

"And God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the DAY from the NIGHT; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for DAYS and years, and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the DAY, and the lesser light to rule the NIGHT; he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, to rule over the DAY and over the NIGHT, and to separate the light from the darkness."

That being so, it would seem strange to me if the author intended "day" in the rest of Genesis be read non-literally.

I have heard the various opinions about taking day literally as 24 hours or figuratively.

Think of people who like to assemble models of figures, tanks, ships or planes - they enjoy the nitty gritty process process of putting it together and painting it, instead of buying already finished models. Likewise, God took interests and pleasure in designing the ecology system, tiny creatures that crawl and work the earth, marine life and land animal - instead of using CGI (computer graphics) to just cause things to just materialize in mild blink of an eye.

Do you even pause and think how fast it is to create more than 150,000 species of land creatures, animals and human in 24 hours? Or all the fish and marine lives in 1 day? And so flying creatures in 24 hours? I don't disagree that God can complete the creation in 6 x 24 hours, but He won't . Whither the haste to quickly cause multitude of living things to materialize at "supersonic" speed ? Would it be interesting to Him?

Humans are finite, we live one generation - usually less than 90 years - we think short term in days or years. But God is timeless.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I have heard the various opinions about taking day literally as 24 hours or figuratively.

Think of people who like to assemble models of figures, tanks, ships or planes - they enjoy the nitty gritty process process of putting it together and painting it, instead of buying already finished models. Likewise, God took interests and pleasure in designing the ecology system, tiny creatures that crawl and work the earth, marine life and land animal - instead of using CGI (computer graphics) to just cause things to just materialize in mild blink of an eye.

Do you even pause and think how fast it is to create more than 150,000 species of land creatures, animals and human in 24 hours? Or all the fish and marine lives in 1 day? And so flying creatures in 24 hours? I don't disagree that God can complete the creation in 6 x 24 hours, but He won't . Whither the haste to quickly cause multitude of living things to materialize at "supersonic" speed ? Would it be interesting to Him?

Humans are finite, we live one generation - usually less than 90 years - we think short term in days or years. But God is timeless.

Do you ever pause to think you like so many in the past underestimate the power of God? You are subtracting from His glory.

 

[Job 33:6]

The word day is used later in the Scriptures as well and its meaning is clear. Israel was instructed to count off days for festivals, etc. These actual days as defined by both today's standards and those from the beginning are recognized as such in even as late as the NT Scriptures.
You cannot add meanings to a word such as day only because of disbelief or one can eventually write off all of Scripture as fables and tales by one's own choosing.
I Corinthians 4:5-6:
5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

All I'm saying is that, the verses quoted have non literal words incorporated into the language.

Let's go back to the verse:

And God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the DAY from the NIGHT"

Literally real lights are placed into (not above or below but into, like nails in a cork board) a non-literal dome? Then the non-literal dome separates the literally real day and night?

I would say that, this is just a broken exegesis.

It's trying to make literally true what was never intended by God to be received as such by us in modern scientific times. No more would God have intended that we believe that a solid dome exists in the sky that God might expect us to believe in 6 24-hour rotating planet based days of creation.

I would say it's just a misunderstanding to suggests that God intended to convey to us that such things are literally real, windows in the firmament holding back water, stars stuck "in" the dome, equidistant, that birds fly across the flat face of the firmament or that God in human form in Ezekiel might walk upon the top of the firmament, like frozen water, like ice, like pavement, like molten metal, like sapphire etc.

Taking these concepts in the old testament literally, I would say it's just a mistake in exegesis. It's just not God's intent in scripture to convey these concepts as a scientifically modern literal reality. And that includes the idea of a spherical earth rotating in space 6 times while moving around the sun. These are modern scientific advanced perspectives. And we can't read our modern perspectives into a historical/ancient near-east narrative.

And once people reach this point of understanding in their spiritual journey, only then can they really begin to re-construct their faith in a way that can make sense of these concepts. But without reaching first base, they won't be able to make sense of positions at second or third bases.

 

[roman2819]

Do you ever pause to think you like so many in the past underestimate the power of God? You are subtracting from His glory.

God can create in 144 hrs but he wont.

I dont see how God taking more tiime for creation will subrract from His glory. I just dont see why He should rush. Instead He would take time and intetests to design the living creatures.

There s no firm conclusion if it is 144 hour creation. So to each their.own conclusion.

 

[Buzzard3]

I have heard the various opinions about taking day literally as 24 hours or figuratively.

Think of people who like to assemble models of figures, tanks, ships or planes - they enjoy the nitty gritty process process of putting it together and painting it, instead of buying already finished models. Likewise, God took interests and pleasure in designing the ecology system, tiny creatures that crawl and work the earth, marine life and land animal - instead of using CGI (computer graphics) to just cause things to just materialize in mild blink of an eye.

Do you even pause and think how fast it is to create more than 150,000 species of land creatures, animals and human in 24 hours? Or all the fish and marine lives in 1 day? And so flying creatures in 24 hours? I don't disagree that God can complete the creation in 6 x 24 hours, but He won't . Whither the haste to quickly cause multitude of living things to materialize at "supersonic" speed ? Would it be interesting to Him?

Humans are finite, we live one generation - usually less than 90 years - we think short term in days or years. But God is timeless.

I'm not saying the six days of creation are literal. I'm saying that it seems obvious to me that the "day(s)" and "night" in Genesis 1:14-18 are meant to be read literally. As for the other "day(s)" in that chapter, I don't know what the author meant.

 

[Buzzard3]

How is it that you feel confident that day and night are meant to be taken literally

It seems obvious to me that the "day(s)" and "night" in Genesis 1:14-18 are meant to be read literally. As for the other "day(s)" in that chapter, I don't know what the author meant.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I'm not saying the six days of creation are literal. I'm saying that it seems obvious to me that the "day(s)" and "night" in Genesis 1:14-18 are meant to be read literally. As for the other "day(s)" in that chapter, I don't know what the author meant.

The word day in Hebrew is consistently meant the literal day that we use to day...throughout Scripture.

 

[Job 33:6]

The word day in Hebrew is consistently meant the literal day that we use to day...throughout Scripture.

That cannot possibly be the case, given that there were days in scripture before the sun was even created.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

That cannot possibly be the case, given that there were days in scripture before the sun was even created.

You could resort to looking up the Hebrew word in a Greek/Hebrew/English interlinear Bible.

 

[Job 33:6]

You could resort to looking up the Hebrew word in a Greek/Hebrew/English interlinear Bible.

But of course there is no day without a sun. So the passages couldn't be referring to a day as we do in modern times.

When we use phrases such as "on this day" or "day-light" or "day-time", these are concepts that involve planetary rotation and an orbit around a sun.

Scripture just doesn't imply that this is what was meant, most simply because the sun didn't exist in the first few days of creation.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

You could resort to looking up the Hebrew word in a Greek/Hebrew/English interlinear Bible.

The issue is not that simple. The body of literature that we know today as Genesis 1-11 is one of the most intensely studied bodies of literature because it expresses concepts that are completely foreign to the modern western mind. This is especially true of Genesis 1:1-10 in which the concepts darkness, light, and a solid dome that separated “the waters from the waters” are introduced. Indeed, the ancient Orientals peoples did not associate light and darkness exclusively with the sun and the moon. Indeed, in their thinking, light came into the world before the sun and the moon were created, and it was this light that they called “Day.”

Genesis 1:5. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. (NRSV)

Hence, we read in Job,

Job 38:19. “Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
20. that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?” (NRSV)

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The issue is not that simple. The body of literature that we know today as Genesis 1-11 is one of the most intensely studied bodies of literature because it expresses concepts that are completely foreign to the modern western mind. This is especially true of Genesis 1:1-10 in which the concepts darkness, light, and a solid dome that separated “the waters from the waters” are introduced. Indeed, the ancient Orientals peoples did not associate light and darkness exclusively with the sun and the moon. Indeed, in their thinking, light came into the world before the sun and the moon were created, and it was this light that they called “Day.”

Genesis 1:5. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. (NRSV)

Hence, we read in Job,

Job 38:19. “Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
20. that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?” (NRSV)

One should argue that nearly all of the scientific knowledge of the world sets itself up against the written knowledge of God and therefore is foreign to the outsider.
As I already stated, I am not unaware of the so-called scientific renderings which seemingly disprove the the Holy Scriptures. Here, though, one can not claim to understand Scripture and original intent of the word day to mean something other than the Hebrew meaning of the word day. The same Hebrew word is used to express "day" throughout Scripture and therefore we have its clear meaning both in terms of context from the text as well as from the translation of the Hebrew word day. If this were not so the translators were more than just remiss in their efforts at translation.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

One should argue that nearly all of the scientific knowledge of the world sets itself up against the written knowledge of God and therefore is foreign to the outsider.
As I already stated, I am not unaware of the so-called scientific renderings which seemingly disprove the the Holy Scriptures. Here, though, one can not claim to understand Scripture and original intent of the word day to mean something other than the Hebrew meaning of the word day. The same Hebrew word is used to express "day" throughout Scripture and therefore we have its clear meaning both in terms of context from the text as well as from the translation of the Hebrew word day. If this were not so the translators were more than just remiss in their efforts at translation.

As I posted above, the Hebrew word יוֹם (day) in Genesis 1:5 expresses a very different concept than that for which you are advocating. This is, of course, also true of Genesis 1:14 in which the Hebrew word יוֹם expresses the “day time” as opposed to the “night time” rather than a 24-hour day. Translators of the Hebrew use the word “day” in each of the two verses because in each of the two verses it comes closest to expressing the concepts in English. It also needs to be said that translators of the Old Testament base their word choices for the target language upon the lexical data found in the best Hebrew and Aramaic lexicons. The starting point is the five-volume Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament commonly abbreviated HALOT. Further useful lexical data is found in the nine-volume Dictionary of Classical Hebrew and the three-volume Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament. These lexicons are available both as bound volumes and in digital format to be used by anyone who desires to have an accurate understanding of the Old Testament.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

As I posted above, the Hebrew word יוֹם (day) in Genesis 1:5 expresses a very different concept than that for which you are advocating. This is, of course, also true of Genesis 1:14 in which the Hebrew word יוֹם expresses the “day time” as opposed to the “night time” rather than a 24-hour day. Translators of the Hebrew use the word “day” in each of the two verses because in each of the two verses it comes closest to expressing the concepts in English. It also needs to be said that translators of the Old Testament base their word choices for the target language upon the lexical data found in the best Hebrew and Aramaic lexicons. The starting point is the five-volume Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament commonly abbreviated HALOT. Further useful lexical data is found in the nine-volume Dictionary of Classical Hebrew and the three-volume Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament. These lexicons are available both as bound volumes and in digital format to be used by anyone who desires to have an accurate understanding of the Old Testament.

Your response reminds me of a preacher I once talked with who went through great pains and research to prove that where wine is mentioned in the Scriptures it is referring to a nonalcoholic drink. He skirts the clear Scriptural references to the fermented drink and passages which specifically state that one should not get drunk on wine.
God makes plain the meaning of the word day in Genesis...no need to do this if not to disprove doubters.
There are great earthly minds...and they are the worse cases when it comes to faith issues because they can't get over themselves enough to believe that their own extensive and exhaustive education proves of very little value in the understanding of the Scriptures.
Scripture is there to instruct both the simple and the wise and where Paul speaks of delivering a message of wisdom to the mature it is not some scientifically matured mind...it is just the opposite, it is a developed spiritual mind based on acceptance and faith in our omnipotent God.
God speaks to Job of his lack of wisdom relative His own. Paul records for us in I Corinthians exactly the situation between God and man in reference to intellect...
I Corinthians 1:20-23:
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles

So enough of your earthly wisdom then. Come and accept the Word of the Lord...
Psalm 33:8-10:
Let all the earth fear the Lord;
let all the people of the world revere him.
9 For he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm.

10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations;
he thwarts the purposes of the peoples.

All peoples bent on proving God's Word to be true or false are in fact in a state of doubt of the Bible's authenticity and set themselves up to be a kind of equal of God in intellect. It may sound very naive to you to be so reliant upon the truth and trustworthiness of God's Word, but it is not...it is a process of spiritual maturation.
Also worth mentioning is the fact that Jesus speaks to the adding to Scripture and through this course coming to negate His very Word. (Mark 7)