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Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

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what about the part of the "all" that's yet future?
If you're referring to Mat 5:17-18, it is covered in LK 24:44. There is no reference to end time events as is tried to make the Scripture state. If so Jesus is in error making the statement this is the new testament (covenant). This would mean that there is more than one NC which I've asked for proof of and seem to be ignored. So is Jesus lying or speaking of another new covenant? If He is speaking of another NC I need something to go on identifying that other new covenant.

how does that factor into the completion if the future events written about Him haven't even taken place? (hope you understand what i'm asking).[/quote]Jesus didn't speak of end time events in Mat 5:17-18. He that made clear with the statement in LK 24:44. Notice in the KJV the last 2 words of the verse are concerning Me. The NIV leaves those words out. My references indicate they are original Greek text words of the text.
 
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JohnRabbit

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[/COLOR]If you're referring to Mat 5:17-18, it is covered in LK 24:44. There is no reference to end time events as is tried to make the Scripture state. If so Jesus is in error making the statement this is the new testament (covenant). This would mean that there is more than one NC which I've asked for proof of and seem to be ignored. So is Jesus lying or speaking of another new covenant? If He is speaking of another NC I need something to go on identifying that other new covenant.

how does that factor into the completion if the future events written about Him haven't even taken place? (hope you understand what i'm asking).
Jesus didn't speak of end time events in Mat 5:17-18. He that made clear with the statement in LK 24:44. Notice in the KJV the last 2 words of the verse are concerning Me. The NIV leaves those words out. My references indicate they are original Greek text words of the text.[/QUOTE]

i was almost there with you until you threw matt 5:17-18 into the mix, which mixed me up.

i was referring to the "all" that's written in lk 24:44 and i've never acknowledged more than one "nc", don't know where you got that from.
 
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visionary

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First, we would have to memorize all of the 613 laws that applied, or might apply in the future, to our societal position. Then we would have to remember all these laws without fail 100% of the time.

Ignorance was not an excuse for breaking one of the laws or commandments. Leviticus chapters 4, 5, & 6 deal specifically with the sacrifices which those who unknowingly broke a law were to make once they found out that they had violated it. Until then their sin was counted against them, even though they had not even realized that they had committed a sin.

There is also a problem with the belief that we can keep The Ten Commandments while rejecting the other laws and commandments and still claim to be keeping the Mosaic Law. In Mark 12:28-31, Jesus himself was asked which commandment was the most important. Jesus' reply did not even include any of The Ten Commandments. Instead, he told them that there were two other commandments which were to be recognized as most important. 'You will love the Lord your God' (Deuteronomy 6:4) and 'You will love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18b).

So what does this mean? It means that even Jesus Christ saw the 613 laws as a set. His answer makes it clear that there are, in all probability, other laws and commandments somewhere in that set of 613 that he also considers as even more important than The Ten Commandments. So to say that we will follow The Ten Commandments while rejecting the other laws and commandments found in Torah obviously does not conform to Jesus' own perspective concerning the laws of Torah.

Also, his words concerning the practical aid we are to show to those in need mirror another part of the set of 613 laws, namely, remembering the poor. In Matthew 25:31-46, he orders that we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sick, and visit those in prison. We are to be the means of alleviating their suffering, just as the Hebrews of the OT who were wealthier were to see themselves as the means of alleviating the suffering of others in Israel.

To jump between the Old Testament Laws and the New Testament Laws as if we were at a salad bar profits us in no way. The 613 laws of Torah are a set, and are to be respected as one of the earliest civilized foundations of a society. But their purpose was only to turn what was little more than a ragtag mob into a cohesive unit, able to live safely among one another and defend themselves against their enemies.

We Christians have a different set of laws and commandments. But these laws and commandments are to be seen as the outgrowth of our salvation, rather than a mean of strengthening a certain nation. We have Jesus' teachings in the gospels as to what we are to do, and refrain from doing. We have the epistles, which teach us what our mindset is to be (a good example is Galatians 5:16-26). And we are to understand that as a measure of our gratitude to God for what he has already given us, namely, eternal life, it is only fair that we endeavor to have our words and actions show this gratitude through our willingness to do as Christ has instructed.
What is new is the depth of perception that Yeshua is presenting.. not just adultery but even lust is included... not just murder but even evil thoughts are included...

1 John 2:7
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

2 John 1:4 I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. 5And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Love and Keep are tied together...

Exodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:10
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Deuteronomy 11:1
Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

Deuteronomy 11:22
For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
 
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SummaScriptura

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[/color]If you're referring to Mat 5:17-18, it is covered in LK 24:44. There is no reference to end time events as is tried to make the Scripture state. If so Jesus is in error making the statement this is the new testament (covenant). This would mean that there is more than one NC which I've asked for proof of and seem to be ignored. So is Jesus lying or speaking of another new covenant? If He is speaking of another NC I need something to go on identifying that other new covenant.

how does that factor into the completion if the future events written about Him haven't even taken place? (hope you understand what i'm asking).
Jesus didn't speak of end time events in Mat 5:17-18. He that made clear with the statement in LK 24:44. Notice in the KJV the last 2 words of the verse are concerning Me. The NIV leaves those words out. My references indicate they are original Greek text words of the text.
The NIV does have the words represented by the KJV's "concerning me". The NIV says, "about me".

You are reading more into the Luke 24:44 passage than is there. Firstly, there is no mention of "the new covenant". You are reading that into the passage.

Secondly, though not giving us an exhaustive low-down on what specific OC Scriptures Christ elucidated, the next few verses give us a gist of what Chrsit taught the OC Scriptures contained about Him. Included in that gist are items that were yet future. The truth is, we do not have a complete picture of all Christ taught them on the road to Emmaeus. It is within the realm of possible and probable that he also spoke of the parousia at that time.
 
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Isolation

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It would be death addo
Either spiritual or physical
Unless they are repentant

You have to realise though that most of these laws were for priests, or sacrifices, or a certain period of time, or for a certain people at the time, nazirite vows, etc. Most of the '613' laws aren't even possible for us to do realistically since we aren't those people
 
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Isolation

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Example:

Numbers 6:3
he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins.


Numbers6:3 A Nazir may not drink wine or any beverage from grapes
Numbers6:3 A Nazir may not eat fresh grapes
Numbers6:3 A Nazir may not eat dried grapes

That is three laws that some MAN wrote down in this huge list.
Notice how he came up with three laws out of the passage?
Might as well just say "NO GRAPES OF ANY KIND" lol
and dont get me started on the other two grape laws in numbers 6:4
 
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yedida

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Example:

Numbers 6:3
he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins.


Numbers6:3 A Nazir may not drink wine or any beverage from grapes
Numbers6:3 A Nazir may not eat fresh grapes
Numbers6:3 A Nazir may not eat dried grapes

That is three laws that some MAN wrote down in this huge list.
Notice how he came up with three laws out of the passage?
Might as well just say "NO GRAPES OF ANY KIND" lol

Absolutely. The 613 were not nearly as many laws repeated in numerous ways, as negative do not do such and such and as positive do such and such.
Aside from laws that were specifically concerning sacrifices and temple service there were laws only for women and also specific for wives and mothers and daughters, for men as well as specific for husbands and fathers and sons, landowners, merchants, employers, slaveowners, farmers, homeowners, employees, etc - not ALL 613 could possibly be obeyed by any one person, not even Jesus could obey each and every one.
The Law was never intended for salvation, it was/is God's standard for right living.
 
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JohnRabbit

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It is impossible to keep all 613 commandments LOL.
Not even Yeshua did!
You guys and your silly threads :D

i wouldn't necessarily say it's a silly thread.

there is so much confusion in our modern christianity that i think one has to discuss these type of things.

paul admonished the church, remember?


1 Corinthians 1:10 ( NKJV ) 10Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 12:25 ( NKJV ) 25that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.

so, what may seem silly to you, is probably a hallmark to another. but, i would say, out of love, let's have the discourse so that all christians are on the same page.

at least, that's what i get from paul's writings.

besides, ridiculing or belittling one's belief only adds to the schisms we see and promotes ill will.
 
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SummaScriptura

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Well said.

So...

Since not all 613 laws are applicable to the Church, which ones are and which ones are not?

I posit that if the "10 Commandments" are to be memorized and followed today, then we should continue on to the 11th and the 12th and the 13th, etc.

Please, no hiding behind, "no, I do not eat pork, but I'm not sure how many other laws I should follow."

If 10 of Moses' laws should be followed by the Church, how many of the other remaining 603, should be followed?

Please. Anyone who advocates the 10 Commandments needs to continue and produce a complete list.
 
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JohnRabbit

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Well said.

So...

Since not all 613 laws are applicable to the Church, which ones are and which ones are not?

I posit that if the "10 Commandments" are to be memorized and followed today, then we should continue on to the 11th and the 12th and the 13th, etc.

Please, no hiding behind, "no, I do not eat pork, but I'm not sure how many other laws I should follow."

If 10 of Moses' laws should be followed by the Church, how many of the other remaining 603, should be followed?

Please. Anyone who advocates the 10 Commandments needs to continue and produce a complete list.

which ones did God, Himself, write?
 
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freezerman2000

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No...Christ commanded us to "Love thy god with all thy heart, with all thy soul and with all thy mind...this is the First and GREAT commandment.
The second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang ALL the law of the prophets."
The operative word is ALL. These two cover the entire gambit.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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which ones did God, Himself, write?
:)
Most times it was what the LORD told the Prophets to write I would think.
I am still trying to figure out all the laws here in my home state of Texas, and thatis a daughting task!...but..wat da heckz doo eye nosz :sorry:

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
"write"
occurs 91 times in 82 verses in the KJV

KJV) Exodus 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this [for] a memorial in a book, and rehearse [it] in the ears of Joshua:
for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

KJV) Revelation 21:5 And He that sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new".
And He said unto me, "Write: for these words are true and faithful.

funny-toon-pic051.jpg


http://www.christianforums.com/t7554699-2/#post57325347
I feel like the bible doesnt apply to me because Im a fluke of nature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU6eTVZUWJg
 
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11822

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Well said.

So...

Since not all 613 laws are applicable to the Church, which ones are and which ones are not?

I posit that if the "10 Commandments" are to be memorized and followed today, then we should continue on to the 11th and the 12th and the 13th, etc.

Please, no hiding behind, "no, I do not eat pork, but I'm not sure how many other laws I should follow."

If 10 of Moses' laws should be followed by the Church, how many of the other remaining 603, should be followed?

Please. Anyone who advocates the 10 Commandments needs to continue and produce a complete list.


The law of the 10 commandments doesn't say anything about eating pork. The law of the 10 could be numbered differently resulting in more or less commandments but its still the law of the 10 and its different from the other laws pertaining to eating pork. At least 9 of the 10 commandments should be followed. Jesus never spoke against the 10 Cs.
 
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JohnRabbit

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No...Christ commanded us to "Love thy god with all thy heart, with all thy soul and with all thy mind...this is the First and GREAT commandment.
The second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang ALL the law of the prophets."
The operative word is ALL. These two cover the entire gambit.

isn't that a summary of the ten?

first four show love toward God and the last six show love toward neighbor?
 
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11822

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These are 9 of the 10 Commandments. Isn't this what Jesus teaches us?


You shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
 
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freezerman2000

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isn't that a summary of the ten?

first four show love toward God and the last six show love toward neighbor?

The first five are about our relationship with God, the last five deal with our relationship with our fellow man.
 
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freezerman2000

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isn't that a summary of the ten?

first four show love toward God and the last six show love toward neighbor?

it is a summery of the ten...nowhere in the NT does it specifically tell us to keep the rest of the 613, because Christ fulfilled the law.
We exited the age of law, and entered the age of grace.
 
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JohnRabbit

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it is a summery of the ten...nowhere in the NT does it specifically tell us to keep the rest of the 613, because Christ fulfilled the law.
We exited the age of law, and entered the age of grace.

although we are under grace, what law is this?:

Romans 7:12 ( NKJV ) 12Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

and what law is this?:

Romans 7:14 ( NKJV ) 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

which law is this, that paul delights in, even?:

Romans 7:22 ( NKJV ) 22For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

what law is paul serving?:

Romans 7:25 ( NKJV ) 25I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

what law do we not make void?:

Romans 3:31 ( NKJV ) 31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

while you're at it, explain how we "establish the law"!

will be looking forward to your answer.
 
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