Would you agree that if I murder, bear false witness, steal, commit adultery, covet, put other Gods before Him or use His name in vein, that i would also be doing works of the flesh?
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Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?
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Would you agree that if I murder, bear false witness, steal, commit adultery, covet, put other Gods before Him or use His name in vein, that i would also be doing works of the flesh?
yedida
Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
where do you think these commandments came from?
Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
Eph 6:2 "Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with a promise:
Eph 6:3 "that it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."
Eph 6:4 And fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and admonition of the Lord.
Eph 6:5 Slaves, obey your masters according to the flesh with fear and trembling, in simplicity of heart, as to Christ;
Eph 6:6 not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God wholeheartedly,
Eph 6:7 with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men,
Eph 6:8 knowing that whatever good thing anyone does, the same he shall receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.
Eph 6:9 And masters, do the same things towards them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
Eph 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
Eph 6:2 "Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with a promise:
Eph 6:3 "that it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."
Eph 6:4 And fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and admonition of the Lord.
Eph 6:5 Slaves, obey your masters according to the flesh with fear and trembling, in simplicity of heart, as to Christ;
Eph 6:6 not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God wholeheartedly,
Eph 6:7 with good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men,
Eph 6:8 knowing that whatever good thing anyone does, the same he shall receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.
Eph 6:9 And masters, do the same things towards them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
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ghendricks63
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Absolutely...and they would also be direct violations of the law of love. But each of these things represent actions that can be sinful or right.
For instance. Taking a life is only murder when the law of love is violated. The same is true for every item on your list. This is why when we keep the law of love we have kept the entire law.
Let us not forget that we now have the Spirit of truth dwelling within each believer. Under the law this Helper was not within the believer forcing them to rely on an inadequate rendering of love.
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yedida
Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
If the law was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago, then for the last 2000 years there has been no need for the sin sacrifice! No law, no sin, no sacrifice.
Clearly, this is not correct. Rather, what was nailed to the cross was the curse, the condemnation of the law, not the actual commandments. And not the blessings and promises to be found in the Law. All those are yet alive and well and will remain till heaven and earth pass away.
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ghendricks63
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No...keeping the law of love is summed up in the following.
The entire law is summed up in a single command: Love your neighbor as yourself. Galatians 5:14
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing right. James 2:8
The law of love provides the basis for understanding the heart of any law. But it goes a step further and helps us identify what it means to not murder, to not lie, to not covet, etc.
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ghendricks63
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Well...no need for further sacrifice. That was done once and for all. I agree with you that the condemnation of the law, the penalty as it were, was done away with. But the law was only condemnation, it's purpose was to reveal sin. It was always powerless to save. Those who seek to follow the law as it were end up squabbling over the letter of the law and how we must obey it. (To drink or not to drink, to cut my hair or not to, etc.) But for those who seek to obey the law of love we have the assurance that there is no other standard we need hold ourselves accountable to for that alone fullfills the law.
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yedida
Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
Funny you would say something like that because it is here in GT that there is such arguing going on about the observance of the law. Over in MJ there is no such squabbling at all, we are all agreed that the Torah is the written word of God and Jesus is the living Torah of God; that we obey because throughout the whole of scripture we are commanded to do so, not for salvation but because of salvation, not for favor but because of favor.
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And.. God gives the details on how this is achieved and then revisits the TEN with the reminders of not "murder', "lie", "covet" just in case the reader is not familiar with what he is talking about.
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- Feb 12, 2009
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see?
we're getting ahead of ourself, aren't we?
answer the questions from rom 7 that i have posed.
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ghendricks63
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Funny you would say something like that because it is here in GT that there is such arguing going on about the observance of the law. Over in MJ there is no such squabbling at all, we are all agreed that the Torah is the written word of God and Jesus is the living Torah of God; that we obey because throughout the whole of scripture we are commanded to do so, not for salvation but because of salvation, not for favor but because of favor.
Is MJ Messianic Judaism? If so I must admit I am not all that familiar with it. (Though the idea of less squabbling and judging each other is certainly very appealing.
)We are not SO far apart I think. I agree that we keep God's law because of salvation rather than for it, because of favor rather than for it. My only distinction is that I believe the written code (paper version) was done away with and transferred to a law written on our hearts and understood through the indwelling Spirit of God. The written code (again...paper version) was inadequate. The law in our hearts, interpreted by the Spirit and summed up in the law of love, is far superior to it and has in fact replaced it.
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Where the distinction really lies.. is that which is written on the heart, the same as what was written on stone... It is like this... is the Law of Christ.. the Law of God?Is MJ Messianic Judaism? If so I must admit I am not all that familiar with it. (Though the idea of less squabbling and judging each other is certainly very appealing.
We are not SO far apart I think. I agree that we keep God's law because of salvation rather than for it, because of favor rather than for it. My only distinction is that I believe the written code (paper version) was done away with and transferred to a law written on our hearts and understood through the indwelling Spirit of God. The written code (again...paper version) was inadequate. The law in our hearts, interpreted by the Spirit and summed up in the law of love, is far superior to it and has in fact replaced it.
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exactly, and knowing that Jesus came not only to fulfill the law, but to show it's spiritual intent (matt 5)!
the christian is to walk in the spirit!
Romans 8:4 ( NKJV ) 4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
who is "us"?
not keeping the law to the letter (rom 7:6).
now, ask one of them:
what law were they keeping to the letter? and base that question on rom 7:14!
remembering all the while., this is based on walking in the spirit!
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exactly, and knowing that Jesus came not only to fulfill the law, but to show it's spiritual intent (matt 5)!
the christian is to walk in the spirit!
Romans 8:4 ( NKJV ) 4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
who is "us"?
not keeping the law to the letter (rom 7:6).
now, ask one of them:
what law were they keeping to the letter? and base that question on rom 7:14!
remembering all the while., this is based on walking in the spirit!
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Is MJ Messianic Judaism? If so I must admit I am not all that familiar with it. (Though the idea of less squabbling and judging each other is certainly very appealing.
We are not SO far apart I think. I agree that we keep God's law because of salvation rather than for it, because of favor rather than for it. My only distinction is that I believe the written code (paper version) was done away with and transferred to a law written on our hearts and understood through the indwelling Spirit of God. The written code (again...paper version) was inadequate. The law in our hearts, interpreted by the Spirit and summed up in the law of love, is far superior to it and has in fact replaced it.
There wouldn't be law in our hearts without first having it on paper. I don't hear magical voices that say don't murder, i read it on paper and my heart says yes, i will obey. I never justified any one by any law. I merely say we are taught to keep some of it like "thou shall not kill", others say we should throw it out. What do you think?
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IreneAdler
more binah in her finger than in your whole body
you don't think there was something in Cain's being that said what he wanted to do was wrong? I think there was.
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yedida
Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
Is MJ Messianic Judaism? If so I must admit I am not all that familiar with it. (Though the idea of less squabbling and judging each other is certainly very appealing.
We are not SO far apart I think. I agree that we keep God's law because of salvation rather than for it, because of favor rather than for it. My only distinction is that I believe the written code (paper version) was done away with and transferred to a law written on our hearts and understood through the indwelling Spirit of God. The written code (again...paper version) was inadequate. The law in our hearts, interpreted by the Spirit and summed up in the law of love, is far superior to it and has in fact replaced it.
I wouldn't disagree with you for an instant (except in its replacement). It has been written within the heart. BUT, it's really nice to be able to turn to the pages when in doubt - "was that really the Lord? or was it just me? or was it.....??" Having Torah as a gauge is a very good thing.
Oh and yes, MJ is Messianic Judaism.
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