Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (2)

[Elder 111]

Please explain how Paul teaches us to keep the law. He says we're delivered from it. He says to throw it out. He doesn't advocate circumcision. He doesn't advocate keeping the sabbath. He doesn't advocate kosher or only eating clean meats. He jumps all over Peter for being a hypocrite in the matter for living like a gentile. That would certianly deviate from the law. I don't think that Paul was out to destroy Peter. He didn't condemn Peter for living like a gentile.

Wrong, not eating like a gentle but with. It was a race culture problem not food, as also is the case in Acts 10.

 

[Elder 111]

That is a very untrue statement. Your issue is obedience to the law as a requirement which has no jurisdiction in the NC.

That is absolutely the case unless you are willing to tell us that you and all others who hold your views, believe that we can lie, steal, murder, covet, all 9. If you can not then you keep it. Declare your hand now in the present of God and the Holy Spirit, it is or it is not.

 

[from scratch]

Not at all but the opposite. The new man as stated in Rom 6 live not in sin but in righteousness. Therefore he break not the law but keeps it.

OK show me where the new man is obligated to the law.

 

[Elder 111]

Which law? For when God created male and female they become one flesh. This is why marriage is a life time commitment. There are many laws. Just like the law of gravity. You jump off a high tower you will hit the ground.

So why can you not see the same with the 10? Lies murder stealing etc. that you claim is unholy for a christian is of the ten. So why is the law that makes them unholy abolished and the remain unholy? That like say the law of gravity is no more but things still fall to the ground.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3:1&version=KJV
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth,

 

[Elder 111]

Deny? Not deny. Frees us from the law of sin and death.. For with the Love of God shed abroad in our hearts and walking after the Spirit we are more motivated to do acts of love and have to look at the do not dos.

So love abolishes the law then? So love motivates me not to murder, so I do not have to do the commandment that says do not kill. Love motivates me to give rather than to steal so that I do not have to do the commandment that says thou shall not steal. Are you conscious of what you are saying?

 

[from scratch]

Wrong, not eating like a gentle but with. It was a race culture problem not food, as also is the case in Acts 10.

OK then you insist they had a seperate menu. Let me ask if that wouldn't be offensive to the gentiles. It sure would be to me. I would perfer one who couldn't eat with me to not show up at my party. I don't even offer a glass of water to my SDA neighbor any more. He's afraid that I slipped something in it I guess. He brings his own water.

 

[IreneAdler]

I'm not sure kashering (utensils and such) was undertaken then. Other than avoiding meat I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been hard to eat with the gentiles.

 

[Elder 111]

This has been repeatedly stated. God gave the law to the Isrealites. We are not the Isrealites and we are not under their covenant. We are under the new covenenant where we are not governed by a law written in stone but the Love of God shed abroad in our hearts. This is why one must be born again. Born of the Fathers Spirit and Him indwelling His people and His people being His temple with Love as their law.

You are not seeing. You are refusing to see.
The same commandments that you call new are of the old and were also given to Israel. So why pick out the love section and leave the 10 commandments when all is of one package?

 

[from scratch]

That is absolutely the case unless you are willing to tell us that you and all others who hold your views, believe that we can lie, steal, murder, covet, all 9. If you can not then you keep it. Declare your hand now in the present of God and the Holy Spirit, it is or it is not.

You're really amusing. What is it about incidence isn't obedience that is so hard to understand? What is it about Gal 5:18-21 that is so hard to understand? It isn't about the law. I will never say that a Christin is free to indulge in sin. Sin was before the law Rom 5:13 and wasn't defined by the law. The 10 Cs weren't given to the world but to Israel exclusively per Moses in Deut 5:1-3. This covenant was promised to be replaced by God and Jesus (God) said the NC was current. So which NC was Jesus talking about. Jeremiah said it would be new and not like the old one. Jeremiah said nothing about movement.

I would really appreaciate it very much if you'd quite trying to put words in my mouth.

 

[Elder 111]

OK then you insist they had a seperate menu. Let me ask if that wouldn't be offensive to the gentiles. It sure would be to me. I would perfer one who couldn't eat with me to not show up at my party. I don't even offer a glass of water to my SDA neighbor any more. He's afraid that I slipped something in it I guess. He brings his own water.

Why do you think Paul was so angry with Peter? Peter would not eat unclean foods remember so eating them could not involve the food itself .

 

[from scratch]

So why can you not see the same with the 10? Lies murder stealing etc. that you claim is unholy for a christian is of the ten. So why is the law that makes them unholy abolished and the remain unholy? That like say the law of gravity is no more but things still fall to the ground.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth,

Hey what an absolutely great proof text!

What do the next 2 question in as many verses say? Here they are:

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

It sure seems like Paul is saying return to the law, doesn't it? There is nothing that Paul says in Galatians that comes close to promoting an obligation to the law. In fact he says to throw it out in the next chapter. Surely Paul is deluded and is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

 

[Elder 111]

You're really amusing. What is it about incidence isn't obedience that is so hard to understand? What is it about Gal 5:18-21 that is so hard to understand? It isn't about the law. I will never say that a Christin is free to indulge in sin. Sin was before the law Rom 5:13 and wasn't defined by the law. The 10 Cs weren't given to the world but to Israel exclusively per Moses in Deut 5:1-3. This covenant was promised to be replaced by God and Jesus (God) said the NC was current. So which NC was Jesus talking about. Jeremiah said it would be new and not like the old one. Jeremiah said nothing about movement.

I would really appreaciate it very much if you'd quite trying to put words in my mouth.

So every day for a wholes year, year after year you do and you call it incidence? No wonder Jesus called the Jews blind.
So a christian is not free to sin, which is a transgression of the law, (of which the same Paul says that where there is no law there is no sin) but that which denotes sin that is the sign post for the christain is abolished.
I can not see how a non christain can become a christian with this argrument. It's illogical.

 

[Elder 111]

Hey what an absolutely great proof text!

What do the next 2 question in as many verses say? Here they are:

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

It sure seems like Paul is saying return to the law, doesn't it? There is nothing that Paul says in Galatians that comes close to promoting an obligation to the law. In fact he says to throw it out in the next chapter. Surely Paul is deluded and is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Is the "flesh" another term for the ten commandments?

 

[IreneAdler]

um, I was with you Elder, then you lost me with the commandments/flesh thing

 

[from scratch]

You are not seeing. You are refusing to see.
The same commandments that you call new are of the old and were also given to Israel. So why pick out the love section and leave the 10 commandments when all is of one package?

My guess is that it is being insisted that there is no new Covenant. A covenant is a contract. When a new contract is issued one no longer refers to the old contract as valid. There may be some similarities and even exact words in the new contract. But a reference when it comes down to enforcing the new contract is never made to the old or last contract. All arguments are based on the new contract with citations from it.

 

[sheina]

Is the "flesh" another term for the ten commandments?

The "flesh" is NOT another term for the ten commandments.

The "flesh" is a reference to man in general:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

1 Corinthians 1:29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

The "flesh" refers to the weakness of man's fallen, sinful nature.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

 

[Elder 111]

um, I was with you Elder, then you lost me with the commandments/flesh thing

The Text used the word flesh. Should we understand that flesh can be interchange with the ten commandments (or even the law). That is what we a re discussing.

 

[Elder 111]

My guess is that it is being insisted that there is no new Covenant. A covenant is a contract. When a new contract is issued one no longer refers to the old contract as valid. There may be some similarities and even exact words in the new contract. But a reference when it comes down to enforcing the new contract is never made to the old or last contract. All arguments are based on the new contract with citations from it.

Perfect. And the new contract is written on the heart. The only difference denoted in the contracts. Contents the same.

 

[Elder 111]

The "flesh" is NOT another term for the ten commandments.

The "flesh" is a reference to man in general:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

1 Corinthians 1:29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

The "flesh" refers to the weakness of man's fallen, sinful nature.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Very Good. So now you see that the flesh put us under the law, for the Spirit does the opposite. So that it should be clear that the flesh violates the law and produces death but the Spirit is life an d keeps the law.
That is what you refuse to see. Take some time and look at it. You are right on the mark.

 

[sheina]

Very Good. So now you see that the flesh put us under the law, for the Spirit does the opposite. So that it should be clear that the flesh violates the law and produces death but the Spirit is life an d keeps the law.
That is what you refuse to see. Take some time and look at it. You are right on the mark.

The flesh has never put us under the law. The Apostles taught that the law was given by God for one main reason: to lead men to Christ. It does this by showing the need for salvation through revealing sin, and by pointing the way of salvation through types and prophecies. Once the law has done its work of bringing a man to the Savior, it has no more work to do for that man. The justified man has his all in Christ. The believer is forever freed from any condemnation of the law, since he has been made perfect in Christ, identified positionally with Jesus in His death, burial, and resurrection. The believer has been forever removed from the realm of sin and death because God has put away his sin and declared him righteous. The law is not the believer's rule of life. The believer has a much higher calling-to put on Christ Jesus and to follow the Spirit of God. The New Testament does not point back to the law as the believer's path of obedience-although the basic underlying moral principles of the law are eternal. The law, including the Ten Commandments "written and graven in stone," was a "ministration of death" which has been abolished in Christ.