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Featured Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Sep 22, 2018.

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  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You are probably not aware that the Bible says that God has chosen us to salvation through two things.

    #1. Belief of the truth
    (Jesus is the truth - John 14:6)

    #2. Sanctification of the Spirit
    (i.e. Holy living).​

    Which is all a part of the call of the gospel.

    2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.
    13 “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
    (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

    This ties in nicely with:

    23 “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

    Tying in with 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, God is able to keep us from stumbling.

    “Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,” (Jude 1:24) (ESV) (KJV says “falling” instead of stumbling. But it means the same thing). The context is to keep you blameless (i.e. faultless - KJV).

    God is able to make us stand:

    “Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.” (Romans 14:4).

    Why does God not make some people to not stand? It’s because they are not answering His call. See Zechariah 7:14. 1 John 3:22 says, “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.” We are called by Jesus Christ to obedience to the faith (See Romans 1:5-6).​

    Read these verses for yourself.
    Check them out!
     
  2. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Why do people feel the need to state the obvious? The passage says that people are saved by grace, not by works. So why does that need to be repeated when it was included in the quote?
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Paul is referring to the "works of the Law of Moses" in Ephesians 2:8-9. Verse 10 (Ephesians 2:10) is in reference to works of faith (So as to show the reader that works follow faith and it is not the other way around). Why would there be a confusion on grace? The confusion arises because most do not understand (or they simply do not care) that Paul was arguing against "Circumcision Salvation." This basically was a heretical belief at the time that said that you needed to be circumcised to be saved. So when Paul argues against the Law or works, he is referring to the Law of Moses or the works of the Law of Moses because he was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism." How so? Just read the verses below and it will become evident (to anyone who is truly seeking after the truth on this matter).

    1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

    2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

    3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

    4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

    5. Ephesians 2:11-13 says,
      11 “...Remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands) (NIV) 12 In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. (NLT) 13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.” (NLT) .........................................................................................................
    6. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says,
      18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB) ...........................................
    7. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

    8. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

    9. Romans 4:9-12 says,
      ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.” ....................... ...............................................................................
    10. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

    Other Verses:

    1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

    2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

    3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  4. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    it leaves salvation is a free gift that costs us everything
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    There is a difference between the works of faith vs. the works of the Law:

    Works of Faith:


    "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;" (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

    "Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11).

    "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).

    "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

    "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (James 2:22).

    "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

    "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).​

    Works of the Law
    (i.e. the works of the Law of Moses):

    "Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" (Romans 9:32).

    "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
    (Galatians 2:16).

    "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2).

    "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:5).

    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10).​
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them." (Romans 10:5).

    Paul is not talking about the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers here. He is talking about the Law of Moses.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

    There are two laws mentioned here.

    #1. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
    #2. The law of sin and death.​

    Keeping the first law, makes us free from the second law.
    The first law is New Covenant and the 2nd law is Old Covenant.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Paul says we are not under the Law (Romans 6:14).
    Many want this to be in reference to all law (in general) here. But this cannot be because we are justified or saved by a Law in the New Covenant.

    We all agree that we are saved by this Law.

    "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).​

    • There is even a "Law of Faith" (Romans 3:27).
    • This is contrasted with the "Law" and "works" within the same verse.
    • The "Law" and "works" in Romans 3:27 is in reference to the Law of Moses.
    • The Law of Faith is in reference to the New Covenant. For Romans 3:1 says what profit is there in circumcision? That's the context.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Galatians 5:6).

    Circumcision is of the Old Law.
    Faith (which works by love) is of the New Law (or of the Law of Faith).
     
  10. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Good works and faith go hand in hand. One doesn't exist without the other.
     
  11. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    What are good works?
    Can you define them?
    Does one need to do "good works" to obtain salvation?
    If yes, how much good works?
    What are the standard guidelines for the amount of good works one must do to obtain salvation?
    Do good works maintain ones salvation?
     
  12. FatalHeart

    FatalHeart Wisdom's Associate

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    No, that isn't what I said. Atonement includes the nature that obeys. The faith that saves is a faith that does. "Make every effort to confirm your calling and election."
     
  13. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Good works are the works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. That's a good working definition. Why did you ask?
     
  14. Dorothy Mae

    Dorothy Mae Well-Known Member

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    John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

    If one's Christianity is all about the self and how the debts of the self are now paid off, then I guess the opening post works.

    If one's Christianity is all about loving God and man, the focus is not the self and how the self can rest and do nothing now but how one loves God and man and how Jesus seems to love such a one and shows himself to them personally and deeply. If one wants to know why some are closer to Christ than others, the scripture quoted gives the clear answer. Worth repeating in bold:

    Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."
     
  15. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    I asked because I was curious as to the response.
    What about the other questions I asked, can you respond to them?
    Thanks.
     
  16. Monna

    Monna Well-Known Member

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    The fact that people continue to ask questions like that posed in this thread is an indication that "the obvious" isn't so obvious, and/or there is a in-built need to feel self-righteous over our ability to win our salvation by doing good works, and/or there is a felt need to provoke with questions like this (which obviously has worked). At the same time, many people seem to feel that having your sins forgiven is all there is to it, when the scriptures are equally clear that a result of our salvation is that we will do "good works" - "deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow me." and all the other quotes above about the "works of faith."

    1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your strength, and love your neighbour as yourself. Beyond saying that anything that is not done in love has no merit (1 Cor 13) a list of all possible acts of love would be without end. The specific "good works that he has prepared for you" are the specific ones that you are expected, and outfitted, to do. If you do others, without the direction and leading of the Spirit, they presumably have no merit. "without me you can do nothing."

    2. No
    3, Not applicable, see 2.
    4. Not applicable, see 2.
    5. No. You cannot maintain your salvation. It is Christ who holds you. Repeat over and over again Jesus' words. "Without me you can do NOTHING!!!!!" and remember the words "ALL THINGS were created/accomplished THROUGH Him and FOR him." You are HIS work to the extent that you "deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him." You can frustrate his efforts, but you cannot improve on them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  17. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    The other questions are irrelevant to this thread, or so they seem.
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    Saved by works = the Atonement is not complete.

    Why do you think the heavenly Father
    couldn't find someone worthy of the task?​
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    How is this measured?
    Is it graded on a curve, or PASS/FAIL? (will you pass?)

    ... this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God... (lest none should boast)
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve

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    That's good. I can't argue with that.

    The Atonement is complete to the task. (paid in full)
    Yet we are in a different place. Repentant and converted. Following God. Crucifying the flesh. Mindful always of him.

    Is that what you meant?
     
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