Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

[daydreamer40]

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.


21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith inh]'>[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe
Rom3:20-22

Sin I is the transgression of the law 1John3:4

Grace is a tough thing for many to accept. According to the definition of sin, rom 3:20 could be written as:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of sin.
Therefore the atonement of Christ covered all.
Many then say you preach a licence to sin. But Paul did not preach that, for he understood where the power of sin lay: The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

Follow the truth, believe Christ's atonement is sufficient and sin shall not be your master, for its true power is removed from your life. Thus fruits will be seen in you.
However, some labour/stress the fruits(or works) to such an extent they place you back under the law. The condition of your salvation becomes your works/fruit, therefore, in those circumstances the atonement was not enough. Your justification hinges on your works of the law

 

[Saint Steven]

There are actually very few principles. Satan actually only has one lie: "You won't surely die." Everything he does is only to create less value to what God has made. When we follow our hearts into sin, we tell ourselves God's words don't truly matter. When we love like that it reflects back into ourselves because His words are the foundation of existence. So sin becomes, "I don't matter." "He was a murderer from the beginning." It's why the Hebrew word for peace means "completeness." God's words are what make us whole: "I have come that they might have life and have it to the full." In setting down his life Jesus not only glorified God as worthy of all of life, but he gave us that value as well. He revealed the initial insult of the lie to Adam and Eve and God proved Satan to be a liar in raising Jesus from the dead, making his name above every name. God never stops giving things value, from giving Adam a choice and consequence, to judging the world based on His Son, it's a never ending stream of life, flowing from the throne, watering the Earth.

Okay.
So, is the Atonement complete or incomplete? (needs our help)

 

[DamianWarS]

Agree there is nothing man can do to be saved.

It's a free gift
yes it was complete at Golgotha

this free gift?
"the wages of sin are death but the free gift of God is eternal life"

what are these words "free gift"... it is neither the word for "free" or for "gift". it is "charisma" derived from the word "charis" which means grace and thus it is the product of grace but it is deeper than this.

The roman system was operated by a patron-client system. If you wanted something you could not get for yourself you sought out a patron and you become the client. The patron typically had greater weather and influence than you so was able to do things for you that you could not do yourself. What they gave you was "charisma" (the thing you cannot get yourself) and what you gave them in return was your service and deference.

When Paul spoke these words he invoked this system which was widespread during the day. Invoking this system is calling salvation like a "favour" which you cannot pay back yet your service is still expected. It is free in the sense that we cannot earn it yet it is given to us but upon salvation we lock in a relationship with God where our duty is service to him. Clients who reneged on this service would come under penalty of the law.

 

[Saint Steven]

There are parts of the law that absolutely must be kept.

So, from your perspective the Atonement is not complete? We need to keep those laws to secure our salvation?

 

[FatalHeart]

So, is the Atonement complete or incomplete? (needs our help)

It's a hard place to say entirely in one line because it is misunderstood. But yes:

Those that are atoned live as Jesus did, in ever increasing obedience to the Bible, which has plenty of guidelines we, as the atoned, must follow. "So you must love one another." But the strength for this, ability to do it, and completion of it all, belong to God who gave it all to us as the gift of faith in Jesus Christ. "It is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this, not of yourselves, it is a gift of God."

The atonement wasn't just the forgiveness of sins. It's the creation of a new person, one who follows God's laws. James is basically a rebuke of those who are Christian's in name only. "Watch out. Your lie is showing. Dear children, avoid such lies."

 

[HTacianas]

So, from your perspective the Atonement is not complete? We need to keep those laws to secure our salvation?

The atonement is complete. I think you quoted from Titus above, and if you go back and review it, it says we are "cleansed of previous sins". That is the order of salvation. The first word of the gospel is "repent".

We repent of our sins and all those previous sins are washed away by water baptism. We are then chrismated and receive the Holy Spirit. Afterwards we are expected to "do works meet for repentance".

The bible accounts mostly for adult converts and doesn't go into much detail on cradle Christians. The teachings of the Church that came later do.

 

[messianist]

this free gift?
"the wages of sin are death but the free gift of God is eternal life"

what are these words "free gift"... it is neither the word for "free" or for "gift". it is "charisma" derived from the word "charis" which means grace and thus it is the product of grace but it is deeper than this.

The roman system was operated by a patron-client system. If you wanted something you could not get for yourself you sought out a patron and you become the client. The patron typically had greater weather and influence than you so was able to do things for you that you could not do yourself. What they gave you was "charisma" (the thing you cannot get yourself) and what you gave them in return was your service and deference.

When Paul spoke these words he invoked this system which was widespread during the day. Invoking this system is calling salvation like a "favour" which you cannot pay back yet your service is still expected. It is free in the sense that we cannot earn it yet it is given to us but upon salvation we lock in a relationship with God where our duty is service to him. Clients who reneged on this service would come under penalty of the law.

this free gift?
"the wages of sin are death but the free gift of God is eternal life"

what are these words "free gift"... it is neither the word for "free" or for "gift". it is "charisma" derived from the word "charis" which means grace and thus it is the product of grace but it is deeper than this.

The roman system was operated by a patron-client system. If you wanted something you could not get for yourself you sought out a patron and you become the client. The patron typically had greater weather and influence than you so was able to do things for you that you could not do yourself. What they gave you was "charisma" (the thing you cannot get yourself) and what you gave them in return was your service and deference.

When Paul spoke these words he invoked this system which was widespread during the day. Invoking this system is calling salvation like a "favour" which you cannot pay back yet your service is still expected. It is free in the sense that we cannot earn it yet it is given to us but upon salvation we lock in a relationship with God where our duty is service to him. Clients who reneged on this service would come under penalty of the law.

why did the need to quote on my post

this free gift?
"the wages of sin are death but the free gift of God is eternal life"

what are these words "free gift"... it is neither the word for "free" or for "gift". it is "charisma" derived from the word "charis" which means grace and thus it is the product of grace but it is deeper than this.

The roman system was operated by a patron-client system. If you wanted something you could not get for yourself you sought out a patron and you become the client. The patron typically had greater weather and influence than you so was able to do things for you that you could not do yourself. What they gave you was "charisma" (the thing you cannot get yourself) and what you gave them in return was your service and deference.

When Paul spoke these words he invoked this system which was widespread during the day. Invoking this system is calling salvation like a "favour" which you cannot pay back yet your service is still expected. It is free in the sense that we cannot earn it yet it is given to us but upon salvation we lock in a relationship with God where our duty is service to him. Clients who reneged on this service would come under penalty of the law.

I was just clarifying with Steve in relation to grace I used the word free in relation to his analogy regarding mortgage payment

 

[messianist]

this free gift?
"the wages of sin are death but the free gift of God is eternal life"

what are these words "free gift"... it is neither the word for "free" or for "gift". it is "charisma" derived from the word "charis" which means grace and thus it is the product of grace but it is deeper than this.

The roman system was operated by a patron-client system. If you wanted something you could not get for yourself you sought out a patron and you become the client. The patron typically had greater weather and influence than you so was able to do things for you that you could not do yourself. What they gave you was "charisma" (the thing you cannot get yourself) and what you gave them in return was your service and deference.

When Paul spoke these words he invoked this system which was widespread during the day. Invoking this system is calling salvation like a "favour" which you cannot pay back yet your service is still expected. It is free in the sense that we cannot earn it yet it is given to us but upon salvation we lock in a relationship with God where our duty is service to him. Clients who reneged on this service would come under penalty of the law.

sorry typing error on the last post

 

[Saint Steven]

this free gift?
"the wages of sin are death but the free gift of God is eternal life"

what are these words "free gift"... it is neither the word for "free" or for "gift". it is "charisma" derived from the word "charis" which means grace and thus it is the product of grace but it is deeper than this.

The roman system was operated by a patron-client system. If you wanted something you could not get for yourself you sought out a patron and you become the client. The patron typically had greater weather and influence than you so was able to do things for you that you could not do yourself. What they gave you was "charisma" (the thing you cannot get yourself) and what you gave them in return was your service and deference.

When Paul spoke these words he invoked this system which was widespread during the day. Invoking this system is calling salvation like a "favour" which you cannot pay back yet your service is still expected. It is free in the sense that we cannot earn it yet it is given to us but upon salvation we lock in a relationship with God where our duty is service to him. Clients who reneged on this service would come under penalty of the law.

So if understand you correctly, you are saying that the Atonement is complete, but we are required to work to retain it. ???

In other words, you are saying that we can't earn it, but we must work to keep it. ???

How is this measured?
Are we graded on a curve, or PASS/FAIL?
Do we just need to try our best? How is that measured?
Could you have tried harder? (or course) Was it enough? (who knows?)

What is your take on our key scripture?

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[marineimaging]

If you got a notice from your bank declaring that your mortgage was now paid in full, would you continue to make monthly house payments on the loan? Of course not.

Yet this is how some treat the Atonement of Christ.
The price for our reconciliation has been paid in full, but they continue to pay and pay. Thinking that somehow they still owe on their debt. Thus declaring the Atonement for sin to be somehow incomplete.

I LIKE that!

 

[messianist]

this free gift?
"the wages of sin are death but the free gift of God is eternal life"

what are these words "free gift"... it is neither the word for "free" or for "gift". it is "charisma" derived from the word "charis" which means grace and thus it is the product of grace but it is deeper than this.

The roman system was operated by a patron-client system. If you wanted something you could not get for yourself you sought out a patron and you become the client. The patron typically had greater weather and influence than you so was able to do things for you that you could not do yourself. What they gave you was "charisma" (the thing you cannot get yourself) and what you gave them in return was your service and deference.

When Paul spoke these words he invoked this system which was widespread during the day. Invoking this system is calling salvation like a "favour" which you cannot pay back yet your service is still expected. It is free in the sense that we cannot earn it yet it is given to us but upon salvation we lock in a relationship with God where our duty is service to him. Clients who reneged on this service would come under penalty of the law.

Are you suggestion those under grace have to do things for there salvation

 

[Saint Steven]

It's a hard place to say entirely in one line because it is misunderstood. But yes:

Those that are atoned live as Jesus did, in ever increasing obedience to the Bible, which has plenty of guidelines we, as the atoned, must follow. "So you must love one another." But the strength for this, ability to do it, and completion of it all, belong to God who gave it all to us as the gift of faith in Jesus Christ. "It is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this, not of yourselves, it is a gift of God."

The atonement wasn't just the forgiveness of sins. It's the creation of a new person, one who follows God's laws. James is basically a rebuke of those who are Christian's in name only. "Watch out. Your lie is showing. Dear children, avoid such lies."

So the Atonement is incomplete? (it needs our help) Right?

 

[Saint Steven]

The atonement is complete. I think you quoted from Titus above, and if you go back and review it, it says we are "cleansed of previous sins". That is the order of salvation. The first word of the gospel is "repent".

We repent of our sins and all those previous sins are washed away by water baptism. We are then chrismated and receive the Holy Spirit. Afterwards we are expected to "do works meet for repentance".

The bible accounts mostly for adult converts and doesn't go into much detail on cradle Christians. The teachings of the Church that came later do.

So, you are saying that the atonement is complete, but we have to work to retain it? And that includes keeping the Ten Commandments?

 

[HTacianas]

So, you are saying that the atonement is complete, but we have to work to retain it? And that includes keeping the Ten Commandments?

That is a good way to put it.

 

[daydreamer40]

It is a bit tough to obey the letter that kills in order to keep your salvation, unless you water down I guess what that letter demands

 

[Saint Steven]

That is a good way to put it.

Unfortunately, this creates a HUGE problem. IMHO

If we must work to keep it, then how much is enough?

How is this measured?
Are we graded on a curve, or PASS/FAIL?
Do we just need to try our best? How is that measured?
Could you have tried harder? (or course) Was it enough? (who knows?)

What is your take on our key scripture?

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[Saint Steven]

When we base our salvation on the finished work of Christ on the cross, then we know that it is enough. The Atonement is complete. Otherwise there is no way to measure what is required to pay our own way. Christ paid a price we could never have paid and it was payment in full.

Romans 4:6-8
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

 

[HTacianas]

Unfortunately, this creates a HUGE problem. IMHO

If we must work to keep it, then how much is enough?

How is this measured?
Are we graded on a curve, or PASS/FAIL?
Do we just need to try our best? How is that measured?
Could you have tried harder? (or course) Was it enough? (who knows?)

What is your take on our key scripture?

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

The writer to the Romans is saying to them the same as we have been discussing. The works of the law do not save.

To your other question, there is no "price list" for maintaining our salvation. We are to " work out [our] own salvation in fear and trembling".

All of this we are discussing is the reason people enter monasteries.

 

[GingerBeer]

Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

No. Good works are good because they are what God calls the elect to do.

Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.​

 

[Saint Steven]

The writer to the Romans is saying to them the same as we have been discussing. The works of the law do not save.

To your other question, there is no "price list" for maintaining our salvation. We are to " work out [our] own salvation in fear and trembling".

All of this we are discussing is the reason people enter monasteries.

So, you do not believe that we are saved in the here and now? That salvation comes based on a judgment of works at the end?