Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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The Law specifically is not in Romans 5 as I’ve been saying. Please address the New Covenant in Romans 5

Not true. The Old Law is mentioned in Romans 5.

13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
(Romans 5:13-14).

"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:"
(Romans 5:20).
 
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As for my point in not seeing things in God's Word (as mentioned in Post #742):

Well, I can understand not seeing things in God's Word before. I remember coming across a verse a ton of times before, and then, one day it exploded with meaning in such a way that blew my mind. Before I could not see it for what it said no matter how many times I read it, but by the Spirit, I was awakened to what it was saying. I think God reveals things to us within His Word when the timing is right.
 
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For what do you see here?

full


I know that when I was a kid, I could not initially see what this was saying. Even after I was told what it said, I still could not see it until they explained it to me.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Sheep NEVER come back on their own, silly. The good shepherd looks for them until he finds them and brings them back.
The 70 left Jesus and he never pursued any of them. We have no record of Jesus actually pursuing anyone who left. Not one. The record we have is that he let everyone who was following him who decided to walk away, walk away. He did not even call after them. And stop calling me names. That is not allowed or I will report your posts more often.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Really? You honestly believe that only people that believe like you, love God and do His will?
I did not say that. But you feel free to cast verbal stones at others so I imitate your style. And if you believed these words of Jesus and do not insist they are spoken for those under the old covenant, Jesus said those who love Him keep his teaching. When I read of those who are trying to say they are under no law/obligation and refuse to say that the law to love God is something they are under, then I know that they do not love God and do his will. If you love someone, you are more than willing to say those sweet words. Many here refuse to say they are under the command/law to love God. They refuse point blank. What is a person to think except they do not and do not want to do so. It is a kindness to bring them to see this and get them to look away from what they got from God as their only focus.
That is the most condescending thing I've read on CF in a long while. :fearscream: I think I need to avoid you from now on. Keep bearing that overly ripe fruit.
Oh man, you need to reread your post to one who you thought needs help. If that is not condesending, what is?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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It's because people do not want to see the truth in God's Word. They can read a verse or passage a thousand times and not get what it is saying.

Please carefully read the verses very slowly in Post #738.
That is not going to work for those who do not want to see it. They read the words they want to read. The Bible says "chosen to be holy and blameless" and they read "chosen for Heaven and cannot miss."
 
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Saint Steven

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You do realize that the Bible talks about certain believers who turn God's grace into a license for immorality, right?

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4) (NIV).​

As for the phrase, "they deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."

Well, even if this verse is not directly referring to believers today who think they can sin and still be saved, and it was referring to another group of believers back at that time, this would still apply to those who think they sin and still be saved today because it is giving us the reason why this particular group is under condemnation.

Besides, according to Scripture, a person can deny the Lord by a lack of works, too.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).​

In other words, how do you explain Jude 1:4?
Does this not sound like it could be a warning against those who believe in the popular sin and still be saved type belief today? If so, then why take such a chance on believing as you do? For even if there was a slim chance, I wouldn't want to play games. I would make sure and do my best to understand this verse as best as possible from an unbiased viewpoint. Pray about it. Seek the Lord for the answer.
You claim to believe in salvation through grace, but you really believe in neither.

You only feel obligated to agree with salvation by grace because the Bible is so clear on the fact and everyone knows about it. So, you would look foolish not to. However...

You can't believe in grace if you claim salvation is by works. And you can't believe a person is saved by grace in the first place if they must wait for a judgment of works to determine if they were good enough to earn it. And earning it isn't grace either.

You don't even really believe that a person can lose their salvation. You believe they were never saved in the first place. So how can you lose what you never had?

So, on all counts, you do not believe in salvation through grace.
 
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Saint Steven

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I’ve never in 35 years EVER heard anyone say “Circumcision Salvationism”. I think he made it up.

Will he ever address my last post? I’m thinking the lack of circumcision in the context of the end of Romans 4 and the verses in Romans 5 I posted have someone flustered.

Now he seems to be moving on to another subject I wish people would just admit when they don’t know.
Right. I agree.
Somehow “Circumcision Salvationism” is supposed to be "the context". Like the key to a coded message. Circle every third letter in the text to find out what God was really saying. lol

This business of "always having an answer" is so outdated. If we really did have all the answers there would be no need for faith. There is always a piece of the puzzle missing. Mr. Know-it-all claims to be able to answer any question. And then we get ridiculous comments that are supposed to be answers.
 
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Saint Steven

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Please read very slowly the following verses by Paul, my friend.

Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says,
18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT)
19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”​

Here are some other verses that clearly talk about the problem of "Circumcision Salvationism" at the Jerusalem counsel.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”​
Oh, I see. You are so very clever. You can always find a way to make your doctrine sound plausible. To the gullible at least.

Since you want to keep part of the law to be under you need to fabricate a way to divide it up so you can have a part of it that claim is the law you are not under. You've got this one. You'll make up a term and call it "Circumcision Salvationism".
 
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Saint Steven

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The 70 left Jesus and he never pursued any of them. We have no record of Jesus actually pursuing anyone who left. Not one. The record we have is that he let everyone who was following him who decided to walk away, walk away. He did not even call after them. And stop calling me names. That is not allowed or I will report your posts more often.
So, how do you harmonize that with what Jesus said about the ninety-nine? If you claim that he NEVER went after the one, what was he teaching us in that parable?
 
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Saint Steven

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For what do you see here?

full


I know that when I was a kid, I could not initially see what this was saying. Even after I was told what it said, I still could not see it until they explained it to me.
Does that mean that you read between the lines in the Bible to find your doctrines?
 
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ToBeLoved

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Not true. The Old Law is mentioned in Romans 5.

13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
(Romans 5:13-14).

"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:"
(Romans 5:20).
I gave specific verses Jason. I know you don't want to address those and have been avoiding it.

I'll list them again so you don't run off into these other verses.

<<From post #726 - copy and paste>>

For context beginning Romans 5, I'll give you the last verses of Romans 4 since your worried that the context carried over.

Romans 4:24-25

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:1-11
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5A nd hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

<< >>
 
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ToBeLoved

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That is not going to work for those who do not want to see it. They read the words they want to read. The Bible says "chosen to be holy and blameless" and they read "chosen for Heaven and cannot miss."
It's no one's fault but your own if the Son of God is not enough for you and you add unto the Perfect One.

It's interesting how people talk on the internet about all the things they are. But this is about theology.

If you think Jesus is not enough, why not be honest about it. Instead, you would like to make your brothers and sisters in Christ feel less than for their obvious faith in God. For most, that is an ACTIVE faith in which we do the work of God, but we do not subscribe it to ourselves and our goodness, but to Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, which without we could do nothing;

Looking in the mirror is often not a pretty thing. I suggest not looking, it's easier to keep up the delusion when you don't look deep.

Jeremiah 17:9-10
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins


I stand before God for my heart and motivations, not any man!
 
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ToBeLoved

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Did you even read the verses in that list?
It is clearly talking about Circumcision Salvationism.
Can you not see it?
I suppose it is possible that you are unable to see it.
But the words are plainly there for you to see.

I want you to read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24 several times real slowly. If you cannot understand that those verses are talking about "Circumcision Salvationism" I cannot help you. But please before you reply again, I want you to read them again now.
When you answer my post about the last verses in Romans 4 (added for context since you asked) and the verses in Romans 5 I put in my last post, I will be more than happy to come back to your next subject after we are finished.

I am just not going to change the subject now because you don't want to address the verses. But after our current conversation is complete, I would be more than happy to come back to it.

In the meantime, you may want to Google "Circumcision Salvationism" and see that even Google has nothing for that term. Which I've never seen Google not have anything.
 
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