Do "works of righteousness" declare the Atonement to be incomplete?

[Saint Steven]

No, that isn't what I said. Atonement includes the nature that obeys. The faith that saves is a faith that does. "Make every effort to confirm your calling and election."

It sounds like you are not clear on the definition of the Atonement. It has nothing to do with us. (our efforts)

 

[Saint Steven]

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

If one's Christianity is all about the self and how the debts of the self are now paid off, then I guess the opening post works.

If one's Christianity is all about loving God and man, the focus is not the self and how the self can rest and do nothing now but how one loves God and man and how Jesus seems to love such a one and shows himself to them personally and deeply. If one wants to know why some are closer to Christ than others, the scripture quoted gives the clear answer. Worth repeating in bold:

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

All I am saying is that the price Jesus paid to redeem us is complete. We are paid in full. There is nothing we can add to or subtract from the complete Atonement.

Surprisingly, many disagree. Concluding rather that the Atonement was incomplete somehow. That our salvation rests on self-effort. You appear to be one of those.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good works and faith go hand in hand. One doesn't exist without the other.

So good works are a part of the faith (or they go hand in hand with faith), then good works play a part in the salvation equation then.

So some level of holiness is required, whether one says that a believer will automatically do them as per being born again, etc. or by their faith or whether one believes it is God doing the good work through them. If this is not true, and a believer is not saved by faith (with good works going hand in hand with that faith) then a believer can do the most horrible and despicable evils imaginable and still be saved and they do not really worry about doing good works and they will still be saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does one need to do "good works" to obtain salvation?

Yes.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):



“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

 

[Saint Steven]

So good works are a part of the faith (or they go hand in hand with faith), then good works play a part in the salvation equation then.

So some level of holiness is required, whether one says that a believer will automatically do them as per being born again, etc. or by their faith or whether one believes it is God doing the good work through them. If this is not true, and a believer is not saved by faith (with good works going hand in hand with that faith) then a believer can do the most horrible and despicable evils imaginable and still be saved and they do not really worry about doing good works and they will still be saved.

As I understand it, good works are evidence of salvation not the price. Jesus paid it all... all to him I owe... (everybody sing) He washed me white as snow... (the Atonement was complete)

 

[Saint Steven]

I asked because I was curious as to the response.
What about the other questions I asked, can you respond to them?
Thanks.

Welcome new member.
Your username has the Atonement written all over it. (hooray)
It is finished = paid in full

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Saved by works = the Atonement is not complete.

Why do you think the heavenly Father

couldn't
fi​

nd someone worthy of the task?

The atonement was needed to wipe out our past slate of sins that condemn us and to give us a new heart with new desires. A person who is condemned in their sins cannot obey God because their past sins will still condemn them. So an atonement was needed so as to restore fellowship between God and man. This sounds great, right? But why? Why is that good? Can you tell me why that is morally good? It's a moral thing. But then you say a believer can break God's moral laws after being forgiven of past sin and God can then agree with the sinner's plan of salvation that says they can continue to keep putting themselves into more debt by willful sinning again (thereby doing evil in God's name), it breaks everything we know about basic morality or the goodness of God.

See, the problem is that you want to appeal to morality only when it suits your purpose. The problem is that you only want to appeal to examples in the real world up to a certain point that make it seem like it fits your belief when in reality no real world example fits a belief that says we can continue to rebel against God and still be saved. It would violate basic morality. I asked you before what is morality and you ignored that question. I also brought up many verses (that you and others who believe as you do) have also ignored. I wonder, why none of you have given us any answers. It's because you don't have any answers. You have a belief that focuses only on a certain set of verses in the Bible (taken out of context) while ignoring whole other sections and or verses in the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Saved by works = the Atonement is not complete.

Does not a person have to act (work) in order to accept Jesus or do they not need to act by believing on Jesus to begin with? Does this work undo the atonement? Believing on Jesus is a work. In fact, it is a commandment (law) to believe on Jesus (See 1 John 3:23). Does that mean you are under the Law? Does that mean you are saved by works, too?

One first needs to take action by making a decision for believing in the Lord. This is a work. Does not this one work undo the Atonement? See, that is where your belief falls apart. You believe you are saved by works because you do not believe in Universal Salvationism or Calvinism. You believe that at least one small little work (of accepting Christ or believing on Him) is needed for the Atonement.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How is this measured?

How is Sanctification or living holy measured?
Why don't you do a study on the requirements of obeying God's commands in the New Testament and find out?
Jesus says pick up your cross and come follow me.
Jesus did not say believe on me and go back to your life of sin. Jesus said to two people to "sin no more" (John 5:14) (John 8:11).

Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). It seems like you are saying you do not have to love Jesus and yet you can still be saved. Paul says if any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). So yes. Not loving Jesus by keeping His commandments is a salvation issue. These are not the commands of the Old Testament, but these would be the commands of Jesus Christ and His followers (that can be found in the pages of the New Testament).

Is it graded on a curve, or PASS/FAIL? (will you pass?)

Are you appealing to morality as a part of this question?
For it appears like you are appealing to morality in the fact that it does not seem fair that you have to "walk in the light" (obey God's commandments) as a part of the atonement (See again: 1 John 1:7). The Bible says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. But if you are to appeal to morality with this question (as if to say that my belief sounds unfair or not good), then you cannot ignore morality later and break the very moral standard. That is being morally selective.

... this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God... (lest none should boast)

Again, you are appealing to morality here by the immoral nature of a person boasting in their works over the work of God. Yet, later you deny morality because you implied that a believer can be saved even while murdering others. This is being selective with your morality. You are only appealing to morality when it suits your purposes.

 

[DamianWarS]

That's good. I can't argue with that.

The Atonement is complete to the task. (paid in full)
Yet we are in a different place. Repentant and converted. Following God. Crucifying the flesh. Mindful always of him.

Is that what you meant?

to be honest I'm not sure what it means... but somehow this is how scripture presents it. We are a people who believe in paradoxes, Christ is 100% man yet is 100% God... God is one yet he is 3... how can this be? We have a lot of fancy words, all they do is give terminology but they cannot be fully explained. Is it so difficult to approach salvation the same way being 100% free and 100% cost at the same time while preserving Christ's atonement as complete.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As I understand it, good works are evidence of salvation not the price. Jesus paid it all... all to him I owe... (everybody sing) He washed me white as snow... (the Atonement was complete)

Wow. Now you are changing your tune here. Before you implied that a believer would be saved even while they mowed down a crowd of people with a submachine. Yet, now you are preaching a double message and saying that good works are evidence of salvation. If good works are evidence of salvation, then that means good works play a part in the salvation equation in some way.

 

[Saint Steven]

The atonement was needed to wipe out our past slate of sins that condemn us and to give us a new heart with new desires. A person who is condemned in their sins cannot obey God because their past sins will still condemn them. So an atonement was needed so as to restore fellowship between God and man. This sounds great, right? But why? Why is that good? Can you tell me why that is morally good? It's a moral thing. But then you say a believer can break God's moral laws after being forgiven of past sin and God can then agree with the sinner's plan of salvation that says they can continue to keep putting themselves into more debt by willful sinning again (thereby doing evil in God's name), it breaks everything we know about basic morality or the goodness of God.

See, the problem is that you want to appeal to morality only when it suits your purpose. The problem is that you only want to appeal to examples in the real world up to a certain point that make it seem like it fits your belief when in reality no real world example fits a belief that says we can continue to rebel against God and still be saved. It would violate basic morality. I asked you before what is morality and you ignored that question. I also brought up many verses (that you and others who believe as you do) have also ignored. I wonder, why none of you have given us any answers. It's because you don't have any answers. You have a belief that focuses only on a certain set of verses in the Bible (taken out of context) while ignoring whole other sections and or verses in the Bible.

I don't waste my time reading long posts. Unless I find them interesting. Otherwise. Zzzz...…

Do you understand that there are two different judgments? The saved and the lost are judged differently. The lost are judged according to their works. The saved will be an awards ceremony. Rewarded for the deeds that were following God's direct leading.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Welcome new member.
Your username has the Atonement written all over it. (hooray)
It is finished = paid in full

Also, while the atonement was complete, it does not mean everyone was saved (Unless you are a Universal Salvationist). A person at least needs to take action (do a good work) to believe on Jesus or accept Him as their Savior to be initially saved. So the atonement cannot be applied unless faith is put forth in action. This faith put forth in action does not stop in our lives. We continue to keep doing the works of faith that the Bible talks about. Having faith is a part of God's grace (See Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

[Saint Steven]

Does not a person have to act (work) in order to accept Jesus or do they not need to act by believing on Jesus to begin with? Does this work undo the atonement? Believing on Jesus is a work. In fact, it is a commandment (law) to believe on Jesus (See 1 John 3:23). Does that mean you are under the Law? Does that mean you are saved by works, too?

One first needs to take action by making a decision for believing in the Lord. This is a work. Does not this one work undo the Atonement? See, that is where your belief falls apart. You believe you are saved by works because you do not believe in Universal Salvationism or Calvinism. You believe that at least one small little work (of accepting Christ or believing on Him) is needed for the Atonement.

I already affirmed that a person needs to take a step of faith to receive the Atonement. But that does not "pay" for their salvation. Someone can put a gift at your feet. But if you don't receive it, you don't have it. Is that work to "earn" the gift? Nope.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't waste my time reading long posts. Unless I find them interesting. Otherwise. Zzzz...…

Well, first of all, my post was not really all that long to read. If you want, I can re-edit the posts into two posts (bite size pieces kind of like cutting a sandwich in half) if that makes you feel better. Second, your original post (OP) was about the same length. So I suppose you didn't even read your own post because you don't waste time reading long posts? From my perspective, it sounds like you just do not want to hear any kind of opposition to your belief because you have a protective bubble of a belief that does not want to be disturbed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I already affirmed that a person needs to take a step of faith to receive the Atonement. But that does not "pay" for their salvation. Someone can put a gift at your feet. But if you don't receive it, you don't have it. Is that work to "earn" the gift? Nope.

Believing is an active thing. It is technically a work. Even Jesus believes that.

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:29).

 

[Saint Steven]

Wow. Now you are changing your tune here. Before you implied that a believer would be saved even while they mowed down a crowd of people with a submachine. Yet, now you are preaching a double message and saying that good works are evidence of salvation. If good works are evidence of salvation, then that means good works play a part in the salvation equation in some way.

That was your claim about me, not what I said.
I said something to the effect of, it still would not change the price paid in the Atonement. Our sin does not have any effect on what Christ has already done for us.

I think you are unable to wrap your head around the Atonement because you don't believe that we can be saved in the here and now. That salvation is determined at the judgment. If you are "good enough" (and who is?) then you will be saved. Does that fit your stance? Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you understand that there are two different judgments? The saved and the lost are judged differently. The lost are judged according to their works. The saved will be an awards ceremony. Rewarded for the deeds that were following God's direct leading.

Read Romans 2 again. It does not separate the believer's works differently from the unbeliever's works. It does not say that believers will be judged differently. What we learn in Romans 2 is that God is not a respecter of persons (Romans 2:11) and he will judge everyone according to their deeds (Romans 2:6). For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law (Romans 2:12).

In fact, we know that works (being faithful) plays a part in the salvation process.

This servant was said to have been faithful over a few things and they are told to enter into the joy of their Lord:

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

Yet, the servant who was unprofitable was cast into outer darkness:

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That was your claim about me, not what I said.
I said something to the effect of, it still would not change the price paid in the Atonement. Our sin does not have any effect on what Christ has already done for us.

You didn't correct me and say that such a person was not saved. You implied this before by talking about the atonement as your answer (suggesting they would be saved). The correct answer would be.... "No" they would not be saved. Is that what you are saying now? Are you saying they would not be saved while doing such an action?

I think you are unable to wrap your head around the Atonement because you don't believe that we can be saved in the here and now. That salvation is determined at the judgment. If you are "good enough" (and who is?) then you will be saved. Does that fit your stance? Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

Yes, ever read the Parable of the Talents?
What happened to the unprofitable servant?
See Matthew 25:30.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, first of all, my post was not really all that long to read. If you want, I can re-edit the posts into two posts (bite size pieces kind of like cutting a sandwich in half) if that makes you feel better. Second, your original post (OP) was about the same length. So I suppose you didn't even read your own post because you don't waste time reading long posts? From my perspective, it sounds like you just do not want to hear any kind of opposition to your belief because you have a protective bubble of a belief that does not want to be disturbed.

There is an exponential dynamic to consider.

I get criticized for not answer all of a posters questions. But if my answers to each question were as long as their post, you can imagine what would happen.

So I keep my posts short, but am then criticized for "refusing" to answer. Thus "proving" I have no answers.

The OP needs to be a complete idea covering the position being presented. That takes some space. And posters can deal with that as they may. I often respond on a thread without reading the entire OP. I know others do as well. I know I should read the whole OP before responding. But like most, I weigh in as soon as I have something to say.