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Do we want to 'be taken' or 'left behind'?

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BIG MISTAKE!
I disagree…that the Son of man is sitting on a cloud…
I agree…that it is a cloud that is sat on...not a multitude...

It is not the Son of man...it is[one] sat like the Son of man...

Revelation 14:14; And I looked, and behold a white cloud and upon the cloud [one] sat like (G3664; similar, resembling - the one coming next) unto the Son of man man having on his (an angels) head a golden crown; and in his (an angels) hand a sharp sickle.

Now let's prove it is Jesus sitting on the cloud. Notice the same description, (like unto the son of man) and we know Rev 1 is talking about Jesus.


Rev 14
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


Rev 1

13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Conclusion.....it is Jesus sitting on a cloud, not an angel.
 
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B1inHim

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Now let's prove it is Jesus sitting on the cloud. Notice the same description, (like unto the son of man) and we know Rev 1 is talking about Jesus.


Rev 14
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


Rev 1

13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Conclusion.....it is Jesus sitting on a cloud, not an angel.

That is what it reads, GLORY to GOD in the Highest!!!
amen.gif


Left behind, be taken...???

As long as Lord Jesus is in it and we are ready for His return, who cares.

It is really to bad that we don't discuss the elements of continual preparation here.

I mean, I say this, another says that and back and forth about semantics

Alternatively, the connotation of the words may be thought of as the set of all its possible referents (as opposed to merely the actual ones). A word's denotation is the collection of things it refers to; its connotation is what it implies about the things it is used to refer to...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connotation

But nothing in this area of our threads are we helping others to learn of the intimate details of salvational maintenance.(Rom 12:1)

So many here believe that it is their express responsibility to make the rest of us understand their point of views.

One gives a post and another counters it.

Where is the love, where is the eternal teachings of Life...

WHO CARES when we go to heaven.

***OP***Who cares if we get left behind or leave.***OP***

Who cares...

So what if we have to stay here till Rev.19, are those who are demanding this of us, giving us sufficient scripture to stand all that while...

I hope and pray that we decide to agree to include fundamental teachings concerning our walk in Christ along with our interpretations of the subjects that apply to this area of Christian Forums.

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Let us learn to listen with Holy Spirit as our ears so that we may hear what the Spirit is saying to the Body.

Fasting and prayer should be a regular part of our lives also.

And lets remember to love the person that we are posting towards.

Love is an action.

When we RESPOND in love, it is multiplied.

When we REACT to others, love is stifled.

Love,
Brother Jerry
Here is a lil' something I put together today.
YouTube - This is my Fathers World
 
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cf4rc

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Now let's prove it is Jesus sitting on the cloud. Notice the same description, (like unto the son of man) and we know Rev 1 is talking about Jesus.


Rev 14
14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


Rev 1

13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Conclusion.....it is Jesus sitting on a cloud, not an angel.


Peace to you...

EXCELLENT OBSERVATION...:clap:
CAN NOT DENY that this is what has been said in both verses as translated...
WE KNOW, as you said, that Revelation 1 is talking about Jesus!...
"LIKE", is also used without the "unto" in Daniel 7:13

Believe it or not...about an hour before coming in and reading this...I was reading these verses from Rev.1...and immediately realized what I said was a BIG MISTAKE may be correct instead...

Nothing has been proven yet!...it sure is more likely though...:)

BUT, SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE!...something is just not right!...I'm not quite sure what it is yet...but somethin' is tuggin' on me...

Think about this for a moment...every word has a meaning and purpose in a verse or in a sentence like what we write...doesn't it???

The word "like" has the same possible meanings in both verses:
G3664;1) like, similar, resembling
a) like: i.e. resembling
b) like: i.e. corresponding to a thing
from a root word;
G3674;
1) together: of persons assembled together
from a primary particle;
G260;
adv
1) at the same time, at once, together
prep
2) together with

NOTHING FITS for both verses! Two persons could be in 14:14...
that would make the order OK...but, only one can be in 1:13...

It makes me wonder why "like" or even "unto" is included at all. It would have been much less confusing if God had inspired John to just say "sat the Son of man" or "was the Son of man"...ya think?...
Well...we might have the 'ole translators translation to blame??...
and
I still don't get an angel giving an order to Jesus! No Way!!! :doh:

Can this be Jesus and not an angel...Yes
Is it now a proven fact that it is Jesus in 14:14...No

very interesting...any way we look at it...

peace and love...God Bless
 
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zeke37

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John already saw Christ Glorified in Rev1

13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.





i'm kinda torn....having never really looked into this particular piece of the puzzle before.


let us pray!
 
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It makes me wonder why "like" or even "unto" is included at all. It would have been much less confusing if God had inspired John to just say "sat the Son of man" or "was the Son of man"...ya think?...
Well...we might have the 'ole translators translation to blame??...
and
I still don't get an angel giving an order to Jesus! No Way!!! :doh:

Can this be Jesus and not an angel...Yes
Is it now a proven fact that it is Jesus in 14:14...No

very interesting...any way we look at it...

peace and love...God Bless
This is truly confounding.

I don't think the angel is ordering Jesus to reap the harvest, I would moreso say he/she is kindof like an alarm clock. We set the clock, right? So when it goes off, it is telling us to wake up. God the Father, has set this angel to sound his/her call at the time of the harvest. Not so much an order, more like a reminder.

As for the "like" the Son of man. This is where we get confounded, or at leat me. It could be that Jesus still stands on the cloud, while an angel, a spiritual being of light, does the reaping. Just as the master himself has his servant to reap the harvest for him. Perhaps this is what brother John has seen.

Like brother B1inHim:hug: has reminded us though, we simply cannot allow these misunderstandings to cause us ANY resent. ANY anger. ANY contempt. ANY fear. ANY grief or sorrow.

Whether we have lived through or died in or before the GT is no matter, so long as we have Christ Jesus in us, we will be translated from corrupted to incorruptible on that wonderful ascension to Him.:clap:

Praise and exalt Him above all forever!:bow:
 
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B1inHim

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Isaiah 63: God’s Day of Vengeance and Redemption

1 Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson?
Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength?

“It is I, proclaiming victory, mighty to save.”
2 Why are your garments red, like those of one treading the winepress?
3 “I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me.
I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath;
their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing.
4 It was for me the day of vengeance; the year for me to redeem had come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support;
so my own arm achieved salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me.
6 I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground.”



This is the Lord, correct.


Here is the same thing being said again, almost verbatim;
Rev.14: 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


What is wrong with this picture through?


I’ll tell you… the Lord is the one doing the trampling in Isaiah and it is an angel who is swinging the sickle in


Rev.14: 17And another angel came out of the temple, which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle


Hmmm.


Now who is it that is executing the wrath of God?


God.


IF I was to do a service for Father, like say, call fire down out of heaven to consume the wet sacrifices of false prophets.


Was it me or God that did it, when the fire came down out of heaven?


It is God.


SO, as the Word tells us that in;
Rev.1: 13 And standing in the middle of the lamp stands was someone like the Son of Man. He was wearing a long robe with a gold sash across His chest. 14 His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And His eyes were like flames of fire. 15 His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and his voice thundered like mighty ocean waves. 16 He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp two-edged sword came from his mouth. And His face was like the sun in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid His right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave.


We KNOW that it is Lord Jesus here.


BUT we don’t know that it is the Lord for sure here…???


COME ON.


Rev.14: 14 Then I saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like the Son of Man. He had a gold crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.


Of course it is Lord Jesus.


This is the abbreviated version of Rev.1:13.




It is like this.


Once I define a subject in a letter, if I refer to that subject again later on in the letter, do I have to reiterate all the specifics all over again?


Of course not.


Example… Yesterday I came up with the chemical solution to polytetrafluoroethylene, which is a synthetic fluoropolymer of tetrafluoroethylene that finds numerous applications.
PTFE is a fluorocarbon solid, as it is a high-molecular-weight compound consisting wholly of carbon and fluorine. PTFE is hydrophobic: neither water and water-containing substances are wet by PTFE, as fluorocarbons demonstrate mitigated London dispersion forces due to the high electronegativity of fluorine. PTFE has one of the lowest coefficients of friction against any solid….


Once I established the base word of polytetrafluoroethylene there is no reason for continuing to us the long version of that word when I can simply say PTFE after the initial use.


The angel in the scene of Rev.14: 15 Then another angel came from the Temple and shouted to the one sitting on the cloud, “Swing the sickle, for the time of harvest has come; the crop on earth is ripe.”


Is like an alarm clock going off.


Lord Jesus is sitting on a cloud (not a great multitude either) and Father signals Him with an angel.
Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.


The SAME writer has already established who the one is that is like the Son of Man here;
Rev.1: 13 And standing in the middle of the lamp stands was someone like the Son of Man. He was wearing a long robe with a gold sash across His chest. 14 His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And His eyes were like flames of fire. 15 His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and his voice thundered like mighty ocean waves. 16 He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp two-edged sword came from his mouth. And His face was like the sun in all its brilliance.


Hence, the same writer reverences Lord Jesus here in the abbreviated term;
Rev.14: 14 Then I saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like the Son of Man. He had a gold crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.


Whose work is being done here in all of the above scripture…God’s work.


Are we taken or left behind…


IF one is in the Lord, it does not matter, does it…


SIDE NOTE on growth in Him;
Spiritual strength is the ability to carry an enduring heart that follows after God even when His calling or message is not popular at the time (Numbers 14:24).

It is the capacity to live in hard spiritual climates when those around you give up, break rank and run from their faith in God.

It is the capability to cart the fire of God’s glory according to His will and not your own. Spiritual strength is the endurance beyond the “norm” of moderate Christian living that comes out of pressing into Jesus for more of Him.

Jesus said, “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness for they shall be filled” (Matthew 5:6, emphasis added).

Get HUNGRY and develop a deep THIRST for righteousness and you will be filled.


Love in Him,
[FONT=&quot]Brother Jerry[/FONT]
 
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cf4rc

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Big Mistake???????

Consider this..............

1Thes 4

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Gods word says a rapture will happen with the voice of the archangel.


Peace to you...

I edited this post because of my not paying enough attention to the last comment above...and I was rattling on about unnecessay things...

I have considered what you have presented...I just do not agree...because of, for example, what is to follow...

You are right about the archangel giving the shout...but...

1 Thessalonians 4:16; *For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout (G2752; an order, command; that by which a signal is given to men, e.g. to soldiers by a commander with a loud summons, a trumpet call), with the voice (G5456; a voice; of the sound of uttered words - what has the archangel uttered here?...it is the 'shout') of the archangel (G743; archangel, or chief of the angels; from G757; to be chief, to lead), and with the trump of God (along with the sounding of the seventh trumpet): and the dead in Christ shall rise first (good for a future discussion):

But, this all happens at the return of the Lord at the second coming...at the sound of the seventh trump...when we assemble with Him and the multitudes...It is not speaking of a 'rapture' anytime before or after what is said!

I put some real heart into preparing this next presentation when you first brought up your opinion on 1 Thessalonians 4:17...I have shortened it a bit.
I'm not sure if you read it and just dismissed it or if maybe you didn't really read what is shown here...
If I am right...please check this out with an open mind...and see what this is telling you and everyone who does so...

1 Thessalonians 4:17; Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, tomeet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Lexicon Results for Strong's G726 -- From Root Word G138
English - ’shall be caught up’
Greek - harpazo [har-pad'-zo]
Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) to seize, carry off by force (chosen by most pre-tribulation rapture believers as the correct choice)
2) to seize on (we seize on to the opportunity; we are not seized by force);
claim for one's self eagerly
3) to snatch (seize; catch) out or away (used as the ‘church’ being 'raptured', ‘taken out of the way')

Root Word - Strong’s G138
Greek - haireomai [hahee-reh'-om-ahee]
Outline of Biblical Usage:
Look closely at the only biblical usage of this Root Word
1) to take for oneself (by choice, not force), to prefer, to choose (this only fits #2 above)
But, let's say that this interpretation is wrong...and we are seized by force...by Christ at His return...it still does not and can not dismiss the revelation of the next two explanations...which destroy the concept as taught of the pre-trib rapture doctrine being spoken of in this verse...all these phrases MUST support the doctrine for it to even be considered as truth in this verse.
THEY DO NOT!

Lexicon Results for Strong's G3507 -- From Root Word G3509
English - ’the clouds’
Greek - nephele [nef-el'-ay]
Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) a cloud (used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness) - this is as in the lexicon - not my parenthesis...and is speaking of a single cloud.
You know as well as I that this does not fit "the clouds" in this verse...

Root Word - Strong's G3509
nephos {nef'-os}
Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) a cloud (great number/mass); a large dense multitude; (a great crowd); a throng (a crowd)

Clearly NOT a single cloud; so it MUST BE a multitude:
This alone makes the pre-trib rapture interpretation wrong!


Lexicon Results for Strong's G109
English - ’the air’
Greek - aer [ah-ayr']
This IS THE ONLY Outline of Biblical Usage for 'the air':
1) to breathe unconsciously; respire (breathe); to blow (H5301; to breathe, blow) as in Genesis 2:7 when God formed Adam.
Take your choice...you must be able to see now, that none support the pre-trib rapture teaching of what "the air" means...

This is clearly NOT the Sky or Atmosphere:
This alone makes thepre-trib rapture interpretation wrong!

**1 Thessalonians 4:17; As could now be understood:
--Then we who are alive and have remained on earth shall eagerly claim our place together with the angels and resurrected dead in the multitudes, to assemble with the Lord in our living, breathing spiritual body: and we will be
with the Lord forever.

I hope your open mind has allowed you to see these verses as I have come to believe they are meant to be understood through studies such as this...this is not what I prefer...it is what makes sense and is supported by the Word as in this unbiased presentation.

peace and love...God Bless
 
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cf4rc

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Originally posted by B1inHim...

We KNOW that it is Lord Jesus here.


BUT we don’t know that it is the Lord for sure here…???


COME ON.



Peace to you...

Who are you talking about that doesn't know it is the Lord in Rev.1:13? If it is supposedly me...please read what I said one more time...

Thanks...peace and love...God Bless
 
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Choose Wisely

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Peace to you...

You are right about the archangel giving the shout...but...

1 Thessalonians 4:16; *For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout (G2752; an order, command; that by which a signal is given to men, e.g. to soldiers by a commander with a loud summons, a trumpet call), with the voice (G5456; a voice; of the sound of uttered words - what has the archangel uttered here?...it is the 'shout') of the archangel (G743; archangel, or chief of the angels; from G757; to be chief, to lead), and with the trump of God (along with the sounding of the seventh trumpet): and the dead in Christ shall rise first (good for a future discussion):

But, this all happens at the return of the Lord at the second coming...at the sound of the seventh trump...when we assemble with Him and the multitudes...It is not speaking of a 'rapture' anytime before or after what is said!

No CF4RC,

The Trump of God is the voice of God and not a trumpet blown by an angel. The Trump of God speaks saying it is time. The archangel shouts and Jesus is in the clouds as the ones that love and obey God are caught up. They are the bride that has made herself ready.

This does not happen at the second coming. At the second coming Jesus comes as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the King of Kings.

Exodus 19
16And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Rev 1

10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;

Rev 4
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
 
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yedida

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No CF4RC,

The Trump of God is the voice of God and not a trumpet blown by an angel. The Trump of God speaks saying it is time. The archangel shouts and Jesus is in the clouds as the ones that love and obey God are caught up. They are the bride that has made herself ready.

This does not happen at the second coming. At the second coming Jesus comes as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the King of Kings.

Exodus 19
16And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Rev 1

10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;

Rev 4
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Excellent 'drash on the trump(ets). I do believe that this day will be on some future Feast of Trumpets (aka Yom Teruah, aka Rosh Hashanna) and there will be actual trumpets (shofars) blown, just as they were to gather the people together in the wilderness, in the Land, and once a year today.

For RC, if you know how to do it (I don't) put that recording I sent you up on You Tube, perhaps the others would be interested in hearing it.....?????
 
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cf4rc

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No CF4RC,

The Trump of God is the voice of God and not a trumpet blown by an angel. The Trump of God speaks saying it is time. The archangel shouts and Jesus is in the clouds as the ones that love and obey God are caught up. They are the bride that has made herself ready.

This does not happen at the second coming. At the second coming Jesus comes as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the King of Kings.

Exodus 19
16And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Rev 1

10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;

Rev 4
1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


Peace to you...

No Choose Wisely,

#1...Your example verses all speak of "VOICE OF" the trumpet, a "GREAT VOICE", as of a trumpet and "THE FIRST VOICE" which I heard was as it were a trumpet talking with me;

You are right..these verses are of God the Father or His Son Jesus Christ speaking in a "voice" as of a trumpet in some way or another.

BUT...

#2...Look...See...WHAT IS MISSING in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that was an imperative to your point in the other verses?

IT IS THE "VOICE"...of the trump of God...WHY IS THIS NOT USED HERE?...the "voice" of the archangel is mentioned...

This IS NOT THE VOICE OF GOD in this verse!

This verse is from a totally different context from the others above and is absolutely speaking of the seventh angel sounding the trump of God with the return of Christ at His second coming...


You have not followed the subject and the object of this verse...

This is the subject starting back with verse 4:13...
1 Thessalonians 4:13; *But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep (what has happened and will happen to those who have died in Christ?), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

This is the object...
4:14; *For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

4:16; *For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

When are they resurrected for God to bring them with Him?

It is at His return "with the seventh angel sounding a trumpet" to assemble us together with the multitudes to go into the millennium.

Revelation 11:15; *And the seventh angel sounded (the seventh trumpet); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become(have become; it is completed) of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever (He has returned and has now taken us into the millennium).

It is my opinion that it is clear your opinion expressed in this post is not valid...that you are mixing things up...maybe like oil and water?
...hahaha...just tryin' to bring a little levity to the situation...

peace and love...God Bless
 
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LovedofHim

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The gathering to God takes a split second (twinkling of an eye)according to Paul. So, according to these verses, where are we going?


Psalm 47:5God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.


1 Thess 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Psalm 50


1The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
2Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
4He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.
5Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. 6And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah.

This is occuring at a moment in time when Christ appears and gathers His people to Himself UP THERE. This is not occurring as he comes on the clouds to destroy the evil on the earth.

Where is the church standing/dwelling in these verses:


Rev 7:9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


Rev 12:10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
 
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Peace to you...

No Choose Wisely,

#1...Your example verses all speak of "VOICE OF" the trumpet, a "GREAT VOICE", as of a trumpet and "THE FIRST VOICE" which I heard was as it were a trumpet talking with me;

You are right..these verses are of God the Father or His Son Jesus Christ speaking in a "voice" as of a trumpet in some way or another.

BUT...

#2...Look...See...WHAT IS MISSING in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that was an imperative to your point in the other verses?

IT IS THE "VOICE"...of the trump of God...WHY IS THIS NOT USED HERE?...the "voice" of the archangel is mentioned...

This IS NOT THE VOICE OF GOD in this verse!

This verse is from a totally different context from the others above and is absolutely speaking of the seventh angel sounding the trump of God with the return of Christ at His second coming...


You have not followed the subject and the object of this verse...

This is the subject starting back with verse 4:13...
1 Thessalonians 4:13; *But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep (what has happened and will happen to those who have died in Christ?), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

This is the object...
4:14; *For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

4:16; *For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

When are they resurrected for God to bring them with Him?
It is at His return "with the seventh angel sounding a trumpet" to assemble us together with the multitudes to go into the millennium.

Revelation 11:15; *And the seventh angel sounded (the seventh trumpet); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become(have become; it is completed) of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever (He has returned and has now taken us into the millennium).

It is my opinion that it is clear your opinion expressed in this post is not valid...that you are mixing things up...maybe like oil and water?
...hahaha...just tryin' to bring a little levity to the situation...

peace and love...God Bless

It does not say the "trumpet of an angel" it says the "trump of God"
Let me repeat, the "trump of God" is the voice of God.
 
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cf4rc

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It does not say the "trumpet of an angel" it says the "trump of God"
Let me repeat, the "trump of God" is the voice of God.


Peace to you...

I will continue this debate so we all may, hopefully, come to understand this truth...even though it is not a salvation issue...as is the "OP" of this thread!

...1 Thessalonians 4:16; "and the trump (G4536; a trumpet) of God"...
This is speaking of a trumpet given to a angel by God to sound at the beginning of one of the Trumpet judgments sealed in HIS scroll...

...Revelation 5:1; *And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne (GOD) a book (His book/scroll) written within and on the backside sealed with seven seals (the Trumpets and Vial/Bowl judgments of God are sealed by God until the Lamb opens the Seals to reveal His Judgments).

...Revelation 8:2; *And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets (obviously by God).

...Revelation 8:6; *And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

...What did they sound? They sounded the trumpets given to them by God which are not "the voice of God"...

...Then we are taught of the seven Trumpet judgments that have now been revealed because the Lamb has finished opening the seven Seals on the outside of the scroll of God.

...Each and every one of the Trumpets from Revelation 8:7 through 11:15 begin with "The angel sounded" (first angel) or "Then the angel sounded" (the following 6 angels).

...These trumpets sounded by angels are trumpets of God because the trumpets were given to them by God and are written of in the scroll of God!

...So, finally, I will say this:
Without doubt, this shows these trumpets sounded by angels are "a trump (trumpet) of God" but absolutely are not the "voice of God"!

peace and love...God Bless
 
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Peace to you...

I will continue this debate so we all may, hopefully, come to understand this truth...even though it is not a salvation issue...as is the "OP" of this thread!

...1 Thessalonians 4:16; "and the trump (G4536; a trumpet) of God"...
This is speaking of a trumpet given to a angel by God to sound at the beginning of one of the Trumpet judgments sealed in HIS scroll...

...Revelation 5:1; *And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne (GOD) a book (His book/scroll) written within and on the backside sealed with seven seals (the Trumpets and Vial/Bowl judgments of God are sealed by God until the Lamb opens the Seals to reveal His Judgments).

...Revelation 8:2; *And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets (obviously by God).

...Revelation 8:6; *And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

...What did they sound? They sounded the trumpets given to them by God which are not "the voice of God"...

...Then we are taught of the seven Trumpet judgments that have now been revealed because the Lamb has finished opening the seven Seals on the outside of the scroll of God.

...Each and every one of the Trumpets from Revelation 8:7 through 11:15 begin with "The angel sounded" (first angel) or "Then the angel sounded" (the following 6 angels).

...These trumpets sounded by angels are trumpets of God because the trumpets were given to them by God and are written of in the scroll of God!

...So, finally, I will say this:
Without doubt, this shows these trumpets sounded by angels are "a trump (trumpet) of God" but absolutely are not the "voice of God"!

peace and love...God Bless


The trump of God is the voice of God (as previously shown)
The last trumpet is blown on the Feast of Trumpets
The seventh trumpet is blown by an angel during the Wrath of God
The trump of God sounds, the archangel shouts, and Jesus meets believers in the air, just like it says. The trump of God has to sound because He is the only one that knows the day and hour.

Pretty staight forward stuff. Just read what it says.....and peace to you.

 
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cf4rc

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The trump of God is the voice of God (as previously shown)
The last trumpet is blown on the Feast of Trumpets
The seventh trumpet is blown by an angel during the Wrath of God
The trump of God sounds, the archangel shouts, and Jesus meets believers in the air, just like it says. The trump of God has to sound because He is the only one that knows the day and hour.

Pretty staight forward stuff. Just read what it says.....and peace to you.


Peace to you brother Choose Wisely...

I reckon we will just continue to agree to disagree...huh...

Ha, I did think...watch out, everybody duck...what was in my post was "pretty straight forward stuff" too...

Well, as we see, it seems to be standard procedure for any of us to not be swayed by one who disagrees with what we personally believe...on just about anything in the Word...

As I have said before...the most difficult thing for us to do "is witness" to "another witness" of the truth in the Word...and change the mind of whom is in disagreement with us...

As I also have said..."this is NOT A SALVATION ISSUE" so the difference in opinion will not be of real harm to anyone.

But, on the OP of this thread; the answer we choose to believe pertaining to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine of which the question comes from can easily become "A SALVATION ISSUE".

By the way, what is it that you believe is "just like it says" about "the air" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17...

Did you happen to read my post, about nine posts back, on what "the air" means in Greek?...just wondering...because I didn't make the meaning up out of the dark recesses of my mind...it is the ONLY biblical usage for "the air" in this verse which supposedly is telling us of a 'rapture' in the air.

While I am thinking of it...please let me know if what I understand to a degree about the doctrine of Pre-tribulation Rapture is true.

1. The 'rapture' is a coming of Christ where He does not come all the way down to earth but rather 'raptures' the church from the heavens and takes them back to heaven.

2. The rapture will occur before the tribulation and great tribulation begin.

3. The church does not need to look for the coming of the 'man of sin, the Antichrist, or recognize him when he arrives because they must be gone, 'raptured', before he can even show up.

4. The church should only look for and be prepared for the coming of Christ to 'rapture' them away into heaven.

5. The church will be 'raptured away' for the seven year period of the tribulation and great tribulation on earth.

6. The church will be with Him when He returns after seven years at His second coming.

Is this about right...more or less?

peace and love...God Bless
 
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Peace to you brother Choose Wisely...

I reckon we will just continue to agree to disagree...huh...

Ha, I did think...watch out, everybody duck...what was in my post was "pretty straight forward stuff" too...

Well, as we see, it seems to be standard procedure for any of us to not be swayed by one who disagrees with what we personally believe...on just about anything in the Word...

As I have said before...the most difficult thing for us to do "is witness" to "another witness" of the truth in the Word...and change the mind of whom is in disagreement with us...

As I also have said..."this is NOT A SALVATION ISSUE" so the difference in opinion will not be of real harm to anyone.

But, on the OP of this thread; the answer we choose to believe pertaining to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine of which the question comes from can easily become "A SALVATION ISSUE".

By the way, what is it that you believe is "just like it says" about "the air" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17...

Did you happen to read my post, about nine posts back, on what "the air" means in Greek?...just wondering...because I didn't make the meaning up out of the dark recesses of my mind...it is the ONLY biblical usage for "the air" in this verse which supposedly is telling us of a 'rapture' in the air.

While I am thinking of it...please let me know if what I understand to a degree about the doctrine of Pre-tribulation Rapture is true.

1. The 'rapture' is a coming of Christ where He does not come all the way down to earth but rather 'raptures' the church from the heavens and takes them back to heaven.

2. The rapture will occur before the tribulation and great tribulation begin.

3. The church does not need to look for the coming of the 'man of sin, the Antichrist, or recognize him when he arrives because they must be gone, 'raptured', before he can even show up.

4. The church should only look for and be prepared for the coming of Christ to 'rapture' them away into heaven.

5. The church will be 'raptured away' for the seven year period of the tribulation and great tribulation on earth.

6. The church will be with Him when He returns after seven years at His second coming.

Is this about right...more or less?

peace and love...God Bless

I'd say that about covers it as far as the conventional pre trib rapture doctrine is concerned.

I stray pretty far from the traditional pre tibulation doctrine.

Enjoyed the exchange. Hang around here another 6 months and your views will change.
 
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yedida

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I'd say that about covers it as far as the conventional pre trib rapture doctrine is concerned.

I stray pretty far from the traditional pre tibulation doctrine.

Enjoyed the exchange. Hang around here another 6 months and your views will change.

In my lifetime (and just before it) the antichrist has come and gone numerous times for the pre-tribber. It's been Hitler (just before my time), it's been Chairman Mao, Ghandi, Arafat (spell?), Saddam Hussein, now Obama. They always get soooo excited with each new possibility, then nothing...... They guy usually dies and they are still here. Personally, I couldn't stand the constant disappointment!! ;)
I know I've left out a few, but my mind draws a blank!!!
 
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Choose Wisely

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In my lifetime (and just before it) the antichrist has come and gone numerous times for the pre-tribber. It's been Hitler (just before my time), it's been Chairman Mao, Ghandi, Arafat (spell?), Saddam Hussein, now Obama. They always get soooo excited with each new possibility, then nothing...... They guy usually dies and they are still here. Personally, I couldn't stand the constant disappointment!! ;)
I know I've left out a few, but my mind draws a blank!!!

You misunderstand. A pre tribber is not looking for the antichrist, but looking for the Lord. Just like He says..........Watch for his coming.

If you need proof of a pre trib rapture all you have to do is look at all the commercials with a alien spaceships abducting someone. The world is being prepared for the disappearance of believers.
 
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