Do we need the law to stay righteous?

[Doug Melven]

The phrase "righteousness of God" appears a lot in Paul. One cannot simply assume that this refers to a status we get imputed with. I suggest that in all, or almost all, cases the term denotes God's righteousness in being faithful to His promises (most notably, His covenant promises).

It occurs 6 times in the KJV. 1/3 of the verses talk about us getting His righteousness. Romans 3:22, and
2 Corinthians 5:21
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Not sure what you are asking me. If you read all my posts, you will know that I affirm that salvation is based on faith, with good works being the evidence that such faith is real. Is that really so controversial?

Remember Romans 2: Try as we might, we cannot make that chapter disappear. We cannot - if we take all the Bible as inspired - deny that, at the end, it will be good works that are the litmus test for the reality of our faith.

And we must take the whole of scripture, not one chapter to get a bigger picture...James says faith without works is dead. He goes on to speak of Abraham's faith accounted him as righteous. Abraham trusted God. (The works Abraham did...placed his son on the altar and raised the knife to kill him as sacrifice because God told him to and he trusted God) Works without genuine faith won't get you anywhere with God. Faith is the hope for things not seen (with the human eye or by the hearing of the ear)....seeking Him with all one's heart, soul, mind and strength brings about inner revelation of the truth that we have always been...a son.

I asked what does 'restored' mean to you? Scripture tells us we are being restored/renewed...as it relates to our soul. Adam in the garden was placed into a deep slumber and had an eyesight change after the fall...God asking "Where art thou?" ....Paul speaks to renewed mind...Christ in you the hope of glory, Alpha and Omega, First and Last, Beginning and End (of our faith...takes us back to the beginning in a garden)...

Jesus speaks about becoming single of eye and John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

We see/perceive from where we are at in the process taking place within...In the beginning there was one commandment, "Thou shalt not eat..." that became 10 on Sinai because of the hardness of their hearts...

Faith is believing all HIS promises are true and possible...hoping for what we cannot yet see...the revelation/restoration...Blinded by HIS light (the light of LIFE eternal without end or beginning)

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Well, my friend, we have witnessed the Romans 2 phenomenon. Whenever I raise Romans 2 with its clear declaration of the necessity of good works to get eternal life, the same pattern always recurs: first, there is evasion - people refuse to actually deal with the text. When people cannot evade any more, there comes the "Paul cannot mean what he says because this contradicts salvation by faith" argument.



I find the psychology of denial to be most interesting. We have a clear declaration in Romans 2 (as well as Romans 8 and in the gospels) that good works are indeed related to salvation.

Yet some people won't accept this.

The better path, of course, is to seek a way to believe all the stuff in Scripture.

And as I think you and I agree, the basic idea is that the good works are evidence that we are true believers. And they are produced by the indwelling Spirit.

And so it should not surprise us in the slightest that the test of the veracity of our faith is the evidence of a changed life.

True!!!......I don’t know if I have ever heard anybody talk about this......paraphrasing here.....at the end of Galation Paul is sick of arguing with the legalists,he’s worn out (sound familiar) he says look guys this stuff about circumcision and all the rest.....it means “ nothing!” Has your life been changed? In the end that is all that matters

New and changed lives....that is the POWER of the Gospel!

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

This is a righteousness FROM God - it does not mean it is the righteousness OF God.

See the difference: God can impute us with righteousness - see us as "clean" without having to see us as possessing God's own righteousness.

We do indeed get a status of righteousness FROM God, we do not get God's own status of righteousness. In other words, God can reckon us as "righteous" without reckoning us as possessing the particular righteousness that only belongs to God.

Do you believe scripture says we are sons of God the Father? Though Paul says we cannot see what is being revealed at first...dimly in the mirror, then face to face...the image being revealed of who we are IN HIM and HIM IN us...

No one has the power to cause anyone else to 'see', it is each man in his own order (as Paul said) and a time appointed...we are called...chosen...and faithful...all relating to the process taking place within...

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

it will be good works that are the litmus test for the reality of our faith.

Anything done from faith is good works. I have never said differently.

 

[expos4ever]

Anything done from faith is good works. I have never said differently.

Agreed, but, again, we need to accept that Paul says what he says. In Romans 2, and in Romans 8 and elsewhere, he clearly links the awarding of eternal life to doing good works.

Look at the resistance to Paul we see in this thread. One poster repeatedly refused to actually explain the Romans 2 text. After persistently pointing that it is not fair debate to simply ignore evidence you don't like, she produced a paraphrase version of Romans 2 that did not have that connection between good works and eternal life. Well, the actual translations all (or at least 90% of them) leave no doubt - eternal life is given "according to what we have done".

And Romans 8 says that IF we put to death our misdeeds THEN God will give life to our otherwise mortal bodies.

Another poster basically concede the meaning of Romans 2:6-7 and then claimed that Paul cannot really believe the words that flowed from his own pen.

We need to stop playing games and accept what the Scriptures tell us, even if it upsets the apple cart a bit.

 

[JLB777]

It looks like you are saying Christ saved us, but now in order to get that eternal life we need to persist in doing good.

I simply quoted scripture.


Here is what Jesus said about eternal life:

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Compared to what Paul said about eternal life:


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life: Jesus
• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good: Paul

Brother, I don't know you, or who has taught you, or what you have been through in this life.

I can only share what the scriptures teach us.

There are two ways for the born again Christian, who is empowered by God's Spirit, to live their life on earth.

1. According to the flesh.
2. According to the Spirit.

If you have been born again and filled with God's Spirit, then you have the ability to reign and rule in dominion over the sin that dwells in your flesh, as well as the devil who seeks to entice you into destructive plan of sin and defeat.

Living life according to the Spirit, is the way of victory and blessing, and peace.

Living life according to the dictates of the flesh, seeking to gratify it's lustful desires of sin, whereby we become enslaved again to sin and the devil, once we have been set free, is the way of defeat, depression, and bondage, and leads to death; eternal death.


12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.Romans 8:12-13




JLB

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Agreed, but, again, we need to accept that Paul says what he says. In Romans 2, and in Romans 8 and elsewhere, he clearly links the awarding of eternal life to doing good works.

Look at the resistance to Paul we see in this thread. One poster repeatedly refused to actually explain the Romans 2 text. After persistently pointing that it is not fair debate to simply ignore evidence you don't like, she produced a paraphrase version of Romans 2 that did not have that connection between good works and eternal life. Well, the actual translations all (or at least 90% of them) leave no doubt - eternal life is given "according to what we have done".

And Romans 8 says that IF we put to death our misdeeds THEN God will give life to our otherwise mortal bodies.

Another poster basically concede the meaning of Romans 2:6-7 and then claimed that Paul cannot really believe the words that flowed from his own pen.

We need to stop playing games and accept what the Scriptures tell us, even if it upsets the apple cart a bit.

It appeared (in many of your posts) you separated "good works" from faith. The two go hand in hand. For many folks out of their own mind do good works that are not coming from faith, and many who claim faith, doing things according to what they 'think' is good...there are many (even atheists) who do good things, but that is not from faith (believing in the promises of God)...

Genuine faith brings about works from the new spirit, not the carnal mind...and that brings about revelation within of the righteousness of God. Man can never be or see the righteousness of God...the flesh profiteth nothing...

The very first lines of Romans 2 speaks about judging others...and that judging is swinging a sword oa accusation and division....

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Anything that does not come from faith is from somewhere other than what God requires. The 'every man according to his deeds' has to do with what true faith brings and what perceiving from 'self' brings....they both bring a revelation...one - the revelation of the glory of God and life eternal...the other many trials and calamity (righteous judgment)...

 

[JLB777]

Paul’s Gospel in itself reveals who will be saved....those that BELIEVE it. Faith plus nothing......Paul refers to
His Gospel as “ by which You are SAVED.

In time that Believer. Will FIND. Himself doing any and all things required. I can’t repair typos. Sorry. e er he

No scripture here.


Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

There are two sides to the same coin...one is a striving from 'self'...a labouring to prove we BE...the flip side is a new nature and all striving ceases and it is no longer 'work' but automatic from the new nature of the new creature...by the spirit and the law written upon our hearts...not in tablets of stone.

Though both sides are part of the process of coming to know the truth within...we start the journey of faith by placing two eyes on a cross until the truth is revealed and the eye becomes single and full of light ...

 

[JLB777]

Yes I think each person will be rewarded for their deeds. The unregenerate have a different judgment to attend than the the Christian. John 5:24 says the Christians has passed the judgment the wicked will attend. My opinion is the judgment of the Christian will be more like a roll call and reward for their good works.

Read a little further than verse 24.

Paul says the same thing as Jesus, because Paul learned his doctrine from Jesus.


28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life: Jesus
• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Paul

JLB

 

[bekkilyn]

Here's the way I view it.

We are not saved by any good works that we do through our own effort. (I could be mistaken, but I believe it was in Isaiah that our works are compared to "filthy rags".)

However, because we *are* saved, we are sent the indwelling Holy Spirit, and because of the power of the Holy Spirit, we should be producing good works through the Holy Spirit.

If we are not showing any good fruit as Christians , then at worst, there is the possibility that we were never saved in the first place, and at the best, we may still be saved, but we are as newborn babies, never having allowed the Holy Spirit to work to transform us, and never having grown or matured in our faith. Only God knows the heart and can judge this condition.

However, if we are unwilling to grow and mature as Christians, we make very poor examples to others and poor witnesses for Jesus to unbelievers, which is something that Paul spoke a lot about in his epistles.

 

[JLB777]

If we are not showing any good fruit as Christians , then at worst, there is the possibility that we were never saved in the first place, and at the best, we may still be saved, but we are as newborn babies, never having allowed the Holy Spirit to work to transform us, and never having grown or matured in our faith. Only God knows the heart and can judge this condition.

However, if we are unwilling to grow and mature as Christians, we make very poor examples to others and poor witnesses for Jesus to unbelievers, which is something that Paul spoke a lot about in his epistles.

Very close to what I believe.


Hebrews, says it this way:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8

Key passage:

• the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
• but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

The rain that often comes upon it, represents the Spirit that we receive.


If we, having the Holy Spirit, produce good fruit, then we will be blessed by God.

If we, having the Holy Spirit, produce ungodly fruit, then we can expect to end up being cast into the fire and burned.

This is exactly what Jesus taught us.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

Both examples of branches are "in Him".

This is not a comparison of those who are not "in Christ" vs those who are "in Christ".


Jesus teaches that we must continue to remain in Him; Abide.

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

JLB

 

[Doug Melven]

And Romans 8 says that IF we put to death our misdeeds THEN God will give life to our otherwise mortal bodies.

8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
It looks to me like you used that verse out of context. When Paul says that if we put to death the deeds of the body we shall live, he is not referring to eternal life, because the Holy Spirit did that in verses 11-12.
Please study the whole passage before making such statements.

Another poster basically concede the meaning of Romans 2:6-7 and then claimed that Paul cannot really believe the words that flowed from his own pen.

Where and who did such a thing. Give a post number.

We need to stop playing games and accept what the Scriptures tell us, even if it upsets the apple cart a bit.

That would be a really good idea.

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Please define "good"?
I think it would be doing the one thing without which we cannot please God. Hebrews 11:6

 

[Doug Melven]

Some have said that Jesus preached that we need to do get works to get eternal life and then they cite such Scriptures that say so.
And then they say that Paul preached a message that says we are saved by works as well. And then they cite such Scriptures that when taken out of context seem to say that.
Jesus said in the Lord's prayer that we are to ask the Father to forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others.
Then right after the prayer He says if we don't forgive others, our Heavenly Father won't forgive us.
Then in Matthew 18 Jesus gives a parable about 2 debtors. One owed a lot, one owed the other debtor a little.
The first debtor begged to be able to pay the debt, he just needed some time. So the master forgave him the whole debt. Then after he was forgiven he went to somebody who owed him a pittance and demanded payment.This debtor asked to be given time to pay the debt, but the first guy was merciless. When the master heard of it, he had the first debtor thrown into debtors prison till he should pay the debt.
Then Jesus said, "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."
Then we have Paul say in Colossians 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
And Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
We are to forgive as Christ forgave us. Which one should we believe? Jesus Christ while He walked the earth, or should we believe the Holy Spirit that inspired Paul to write these verses?
Or is there a way these verses work together?

And Paul consistently said that Salvation was by grace alone through faith alone.
Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

When we start preaching grace like Paul preached grace people should ask us, "Why don't we just go ahead and sin?" Paul was slanderously reported of saying, "Let us do evil that good may come". Romans 3:8
Paul said where sin abounds grace abounds much more. So the question would come up, "Why don't we just sin that grace may abound"? Paul replies, "God forbid, how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein." Romans 5:21-6:2
Then Paul says we are not under law but under grace, the question comes up, "if we are not under law, let us just go out and sin". Paul replies, "God forbid, know ye not that to whom ye obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey whether of sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness". Romans 6:14-16 Check context if you think that means we are saved by our obedience.

 

[expos4ever]

8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
It looks to me like you used that verse out of context. When Paul says that if we put to death the deeds of the body we shall live, he is not referring to eternal life, because the Holy Spirit did that in verses 11-12.

He is referring to eternal life. The logic is clear:

1. In verse 11, Paul says that if the Spirit is in you, you too (like Christ) will have your mortal body quickened. This is a clear way of saying "if the spirit is in you, you get eternal life". What else would it mean to quicken a mortal body?

2. Paul then says (verse 13) "if you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live"

You are forced to deny the obvious - to "live" in verse 13 echoes the quickening of the mortal body.

I have no idea what your argument is. It is not the Holy Spirit who quickens in verse 11, it is God the Father. Paul is saying that the same person - the Father - who raised Jesus will raise you! On what basis? We get the answer right away:

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live

This is a clear statement that how we live determines whether we "live". And, in context, to "live" has to mean to have your mortal body quickened.

 

[expos4ever]

Where and who did such a thing. Give a post number.

Now let's look at Romans 2:6-8
2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
What is "well doing"? It is assumed that this is good works, but if that were true it would conflict with other verses that clearly say we are saved by grace through faith.

I concede I misrepresented your argument. You did not concede that Paul was saying good works were connected to eternal life. But what you actually did was just as bad. You basically are saying that being given eternal life "according to what we have done" - which is what Paul is saying - cannot mean what it actually does mean since that would conflict with the doctrine of salvation by faith.

You are basically saying "doing well" does not mean "doing good".

But it obviously does mean precisely that.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Doug....you know I really like Les Feldick....his teaching clears up a lot of confusion about things you are discussing.I don’t understand it all as much as iwould like but when Jesus was teaching He was teaching Before the cross to Jews that were under Law. Paul was teaching this side of the Cross in the age of grace.....two totally different worlds.under the Law you had to forgive to be forgiven.....under grace we are already forgiven and knowing we did not deserve that forgiveness should be the impetus for us to forgive others.Hope this helps , my woeful Wolverine vfriend......lol

May I insert a shameless plug....check out this new thread “Caution Not for the weak”.....thanks for your indulgence. Lol

 

[Doug Melven]

He is referring to eternal life. The logic is clear:

1. In verse 11, Paul says that if the Spirit is in you, you too (like Christ) will have your mortal body quickened. This is a clear way of saying "if the spirit is in you, you get eternal life". What else would it mean to quicken a mortal body?

2. Paul then says (verse 13) "if you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live"

You are forced to deny the obvious - to "live" in verse 13 echoes the quickening of the mortal body.

So you are saying we must repeat what God has done?

You are basically saying "doing well" does not mean "doing good".

I am saying doing well is having faith.
I am saying doing good is having faith.
If doing good or doing well refers to works that we do, that would contradict being justified by faith.

I am not sure you know what you believe.
You have consistently said ever since you introduced Romans 2:6-7 that we are saved by doing good deeds.
Then you say you believe we are saved by faith.
Works done in faith working by love will not be burnt up at the judgment seat of Christ.
Works done without faith working by love will be burnt up at the judgment seat of Christ, but the believer himself will be saved, yet so as by fire.

 

[expos4ever]

So you are saying we must repeat what God has done?].

I suspect you are not serious, since the meaning is so clear. Paul is saying that God will give life to our mortal bodies if we live the right way.

That is simply how the text reads.

How you see there being an issue of repetition is beyond me.