Do we need the law to stay righteous?

Blood Bought 1953

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This is only a contradiction to you. I have clearly stated that good works are the sign of true saving faith. There is no contradiction. I invite you complete a sentence:

When Paul writes in Roman 2:6-7 that eternal life is given to those who strive to do good, he is intending to tell us ______________________________________



Finish that sentence? Piece of cake. If you believe my Gospel , The Holy Spirit thAt gave you the grace to believe will also transform you into a person that will strive to do good..He will also see that you perform any other mandatory requirements to be saved that a legalists might throw your way.even though if your faith is strong you restin my Gospel alone. Isaid my Gospel will save if you elieve it.ifit doesn’t save your i and Jesus the One who revealed it to me are liars...not possible

Please complete the sentence as you see fit.[/ QUOTE]
 
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JLB777

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Works don't effect our salvation.


What works are you referring to?


  • The works of the law?
  • The work that earns a wage?
  • The work of the obedience of faith?

Please clarify which works you are referring to, then we can continue to discuss this topic.



JLB
 
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JLB777

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John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Nothing about works here. We know those who have entered into (eternal) life have already passed the judgment even while we live in the flesh.


Read a little further.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29


for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice:

  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
  • those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


JLB
 
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The "work" or action of obedience, in response to the Spirit of Christ within, prompting His people to walk in righteousness and truth, is walking according to the Spirit.


The alternative, is walking according to the desires of the flesh, and practicing the works of the flesh.

  • Paul calls this: "obeying the truth" or "not obeying the truth"

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


  • but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath



JLB
When is the Christian rewarded for their deeds?
 
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JLB777

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When is the Christian rewarded for their deeds?

On The Day of Judgement when He Judges each person according to their deeds.


But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11

  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

  • but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

JLB
 
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What works are you referring to?


  • The works of the law?
  • The work that earns a wage?
  • The work of the obedience of faith?

Please clarify which works you are referring to, then we can continue to discuss this topic.



JLB
I mean all works including works of the law and our good deeds.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
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Read a little further.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29


for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice:

  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
  • those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


JLB
Yes and your focus is on the wrong things.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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What day of judgment are you talking about? I think it's the White Throne Judgment of the wicked. Christians have already passed this judgment (John 5:24).

From what I understand there will be NO Believers at The Great White Throne Judgement....”our sins are remembered no more”and our sins are removed “as far as the east is from the west”. We will gather at the Bema Seat....where rewards will be passed out for our faith....ain’t it great to be a Believer?
 
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JLB777

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What day of judgment are you talking about? I think it's the White Throne Judgment of the wicked. Christians have already passed this judgment (John 5:24).

This is the Judgement for God's people, the Bema Seat, the Judgement Seat of Christ.


  1. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

  • Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’



31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46


JLB
 
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Doug Melven

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From what I understand there will be NO Believers at The Great White Throne Judgement....”our sins are remembered no more”and our sins are removed “as far as the east is from the west”. We will gather at the Bema Seat....where rewards will be passed out for our faith....ain’t it great to be a Believer?
2 Corinthians 5:10 and 1 Corinthians 3 talks about this.
How we will receive rewards for the good things we have done. And how our bad works will be burnt up.
Bad works would be a work we did hoping to earn something, like favor with God or man.
Any work not done out of love is a bad work.
The Pharisees were full of bad works.
They made sure that people saw whenever they did a good thing.
For a believer that would be equivalent to wood, hay or stubble.
 
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JLB777

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This thread is for those who believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone


Which is it grace alone or faith alone?

Many do not know what grace is, as well as what it means to be saved through faith, or how faith works; operates, ie; functions.


Maybe a discussion of these words and their meanings could clarify some things?


Grace: Grace is the power or ability of God granted to us, that enables us to do what we could not do without it.


Grace is the Holy Spirit; The Spirit of Grace.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

  • and insulted the Spirit of grace


Grace teaches us -

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14


  • the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us...

God grants to us a new nature, born of the Spirit and empowered by the Spirit, to live a godly and righteous life, [which we couldn't do before without it], in which we reign in dominion over the nature of the flesh and the sin that dwells there, desiring to manifest through various lustful desires.


In short, we who are born again and filled with the Spirit have the ability to live our lives according to the righteous desires of the Spirit empowered new nature, rather than the living by the desires of the sinful flesh, and practicing it's works.


16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21


  • Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh
  • those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


I will end here, and hope others will join in to discuss these things, and hopefully define and discuss faith as well in the next post.



JLB
 
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Doug Melven

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Which is it grace alone or faith alone?
It is neither grace alone or faith alone.
It is grace through faith.
In Hebrews 4 Paul (my guess) is talking about the people who were about to enter the Promised Land but
4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

God gave them, that is the strength to enter the Promised Land, He would overcome there enemies.
But they had no faith, so they wandered in the wilderness till they died and the next generation could go in.
 
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WailingWall

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Obedience to the law did not make me righteous.....disobedience to the law does not make me unrighteous

1JOHN2 [28] And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.[29] If ye know that he is righteous, YE KNOW THAT EVERY ONE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS BORN OF HIM.

This new covenant scripture claims if you are born of God, you will be acting righteously.

DEUT.6 [25] And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments. OBSERVE TO DO! We will fall short.

PSALM 119 [172] My tongue shall speak of thy word: for ALL THY COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS. [173] Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.[174] I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

For ALL thy commandments are righteousness (even the keeping of the sabbath). Also mentioned here is salvation. Being saved.

ISAIAH 48 [17] THUS SAITH THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and THY RIGHTEOUSNESS as the waves of the sea:

Lord-Redeemer-Holy one of Israel (no question as to who that is)....And its He who tells us to keep the 10 commandments

The new testament says the same thing the old testament said.

1COR.15 [34] AWAKE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SIN NOT; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 JOHN 3 [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

1 JOHN 3 [7] Little children, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU: HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, even as he is righteous.[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

LUKE 1 [6] And they were BOTH RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, WALKING IN ALL THE COMMANDMENTS and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

1 PETER 4 [17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[18] And IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

And if not for the gift of “grace” through faith no one would be saved for all have fallen short. Except of course, JESUS.
 
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WailingWall

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Thank you , my brother....and you can rest assured I will check out Andrew wommack....if you like him I’m sure I will too....no doubt he is a buckeye fan. Lol....another crate of crying towels is in the mail .....headed up north

I watched a few of his shows till he said God left a bag of groceries on his porch and that God filled up his car with gas while he was driving.
 
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WailingWall

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1JOHN2 [28] And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.[29] If ye know that he is righteous, YE KNOW THAT EVERY ONE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS BORN OF HIM.

This new covenant scripture claims if you are born of God, you will be acting righteously.

DEUT.6 [25] And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments. OBSERVE TO DO! We will fall short.

PSALM 119 [172] My tongue shall speak of thy word: for ALL THY COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS. [173] Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.[174] I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

For ALL thy commandments are righteousness (even the keeping of the sabbath). Also mentioned here is salvation. Being saved.

ISAIAH 48 [17] THUS SAITH THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and THY RIGHTEOUSNESS as the waves of the sea:

Lord-Redeemer-Holy one of Israel (no question as to who that is)....And its He who tells us to keep the 10 commandments

The new testament says the same thing the old testament said.

1COR.15 [34] AWAKE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SIN NOT; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 JOHN 3 [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

1 JOHN 3 [7] Little children, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU: HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, even as he is righteous.[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

LUKE 1 [6] And they were BOTH RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, WALKING IN ALL THE COMMANDMENTS and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

1 PETER 4 [17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[18] And IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

And if not for the gift of “grace” through faith no one would be saved for all have fallen short. Except of course, JESUS.

Flip side of righteous

PSALM 94 [11] The Lord knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity. [12] Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O Lord, and teachest him out of thy law; [13] That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked. [14] For the Lord will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance. [15] But judgment shall return unto righteousness: and all the upright in heart shall follow it. [16] WHO WILL RISE UP FOR ME AGAINST THE EVILDOERS? OR WHO WILL STAND UP FOR ME AGAINST THE WORKERS OF INIQUITY?

LEV.5 [17] And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

Break commandments=iniquity

PSALMS 89 [30] If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;[31] If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;[32] Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Break commandments=iniquity

MATT.7 [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Ye that work iniquity=I never knew you {proclaimed believers}

1 JOHN 2 [1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] AND HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Theres the children that know the Lord.

JEREMIAH 16 [9] For thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will cause to cease out of this place in your eyes, and in your days, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride. [10] And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the Lord pronounced all this great evil against us? or WHAT IS OUR INIQUITY? or what is our sin that we have committed against the Lord our God? [11] Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the Lord, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, AND HAVE FORSAKEN ME, AND HAVE NOT KEPT MY LAW;...........

[14] Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; [15] But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Verses 14 and 15 of this chapter in Jeremiah speaks of the gathering of Gods people (in the twinkling of an eye) to the 1000 yr period of rest. At that time, the many (Matt.7) will ask “what is our iniquity”. The answer given will be simple. You have not kept MY law. Gods 10 commandments.
 
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Doug Melven

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1JOHN2 [28] And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.[29] If ye know that he is righteous, YE KNOW THAT EVERY ONE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS BORN OF HIM.

This new covenant scripture claims if you are born of God, you will be acting righteously.

DEUT.6 [25] And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments. OBSERVE TO DO! We will fall short.

PSALM 119 [172] My tongue shall speak of thy word: for ALL THY COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS. [173] Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.[174] I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.

For ALL thy commandments are righteousness (even the keeping of the sabbath). Also mentioned here is salvation. Being saved.

ISAIAH 48 [17] THUS SAITH THE LORD, THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O THAT THOU HADST HEARKENED TO MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and THY RIGHTEOUSNESS as the waves of the sea:

Lord-Redeemer-Holy one of Israel (no question as to who that is)....And its He who tells us to keep the 10 commandments

The new testament says the same thing the old testament said.

1COR.15 [34] AWAKE TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SIN NOT; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1 JOHN 3 [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

1 JOHN 3 [7] Little children, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU: HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, even as he is righteous.[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

LUKE 1 [6] And they were BOTH RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD, WALKING IN ALL THE COMMANDMENTS and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

1 PETER 4 [17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[18] And IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

And if not for the gift of “grace” through faith no one would be saved for all have fallen short. Except of course, JESUS.
Doing good works is profitable, they will not save you. Committing a sin will not send you to hell as Jesus really did pay for all of our sin. Jesus took the full wrath of God for what we did.
And if God were to punish us for sin, that would mean God is unjust as He will not punish the same sin twice.
Should we live godly lives? Absolutely yes, we should live holy, because God is holy.
He hates sin, but it is put away. He said He would not impute our sin to us and He would not deal with us according to our iniquities.

I watched a few of his shows till he said God left a bag of groceries on his porch and that God filled up his car with gas while he was driving.
If someone does something good for you and you don't see who did it, who do you give credit to?
Even if I do something good for someone else, I still give God the credit. Don't you?
Andrew Wommack said, that he drove that car long after it should have run out of gas.
 
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JLB777

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It is neither grace alone or faith alone.
It is grace through faith.
In Hebrews 4 Paul (my guess) is talking about the people who were about to enter the Promised Land but
4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

God gave them, that is the strength to enter the Promised Land, He would overcome there enemies.
But they had no faith, so they wandered in the wilderness till they died and the next generation could go in.
:amen:
 
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BobRyan

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Doing good works is profitable, they will not save you. Committing a sin will not send you to hell as Jesus really did pay for all of our sin. Jesus took the full wrath of God for what we did.
And if God were to punish us for sin, that would mean God is unjust as He will not punish the same sin twice.

Forgiveness revoked:

Matthew 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

The bible model is "ATONEMENT" it is not "the grocery story model".

In the grocery store -- you pay the grocer once and that is the end of the story. The grocer has what he wants -- so now you have the food that you want. End

In the Atonement model - the grocer would be getting TORTURED not paid -- so that you can have those groceries. Which means that if you decide to dump the groceries in the trash - the grocer can and justly will take them back from you -- and you will have nothing "again".

Ezek 18 -- forgiveness revoked
Matthew 18 -- forgiveness revoked
Romans 11 -- forgiveness revoked.
 
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