Do we need the law to stay righteous?

[Handmaid for Jesus]

You must deal with this text from Romans 2, and I will not stop reminding you until you do:

who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Now then: what is Paul saying here?


Surely you must know what I will say. I could ask you this: if you have the indwelling Spirit of God, how do you not also have the Spirit's sinless perfection? Clearly, the Christian has the indwelling Spirit. And it is equally clear that we do not necessarily inherit all the attributes of the Spirit.

So you are saying salvation comes by works. I think you misunderstand Paul for Paul also says it is by grace that you are saved, not of works lest any man should boast. Paul also says we are saved unto good works. By the Holy Spirit we do good works but not for salvation. Salvation is a gift that we do not work to get or to keep.

Having the indwelling Holy Spirit means we get everything that He is.As He is so are we in this world 1 John 4:17. Our identity is in Christ not in ourselves. You are stuck in your unbelief. Why can't you believe that we are one with Christ. We are His Body. He is the head, we are the body.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Nothing personal, but I will go with Paul.

You don't go with Paul if you say salvation is by works. Lord Jesus alone is the savior.

 

[expos4ever]

We have to accept all Scripture.

Note how no one in the "good works don't matter" camp have dealt with Romans 2?

Why is that?

Let's be clear: there are, of course, texts that say "you are saved by faith alone".

But there is also Romans 2! And other texts that say works matter.

The way to resolve this, I think, is to agree that we are given the Spirit by faith and faith alone. The Spirit then transforms us into good-works generating people who thereby inherit eternal life. So, in a sense, we are indeed saved only by faith - unless we reject the Spirit, He will surely do His job and transform us into the kind of people who pass the Romans 2 judgment.

Again, why are you guys not addressing Romans 2?

 

[expos4ever]

You don't go with Paul if you say salvation is by works. Lord Jesus alone is the savior.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Nothing personal, but I will go with Paul.

I am interested in the psychology of your denial. How do you reconcile the fact that your statement clearly and directly contradicts the statement by Paul?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

here is your Biblical proof? Clearly you must understand that you DO NOT have the sinless perfection of the Holy Spirit.

So why do we get the "righteousness" of the Spirit and NOT the sinlessness?

Answer the question, please.

We live in a mortal/corrupt flesh body that is already dead. We are as He is. I can't help it if you don't believe it. Our sins are forgiven.

 

[expos4ever]

So you are saying salvation comes by works.

I am only agreeing with Paul:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Nothing personal, but I will go with Paul.[/quote]

I think you misunderstand Paul for Paul also says it is by grace that you are saved, not of works lest any man should boast.

I just provided a detailed, clear post in which I argue that Paul is denying salvation by doing the works of the Law of Moses. And, given context, this is a way of saying that salvation is not only for Jews. More on this in future posts, although my argument basically makes this clear.

Having the indwelling Holy Spirit means we get everything that He is.As He is so are we in this world 1 John 4:17. Our identity is in Christ not in ourselves. You are stuck in your unbelief. Why can't you believe that we are one with Christ. We are His Body. He is the head, we are the body.

You are evading. The Holy Spirit is God. If, as you say "we get everything that He is", then, yes, we are God!

Are you OK with this?

 

[expos4ever]

We live in a mortal/corrupt flesh body that is already dead. We are as He is. I can't help it if you don't believe it. Our sins are forgiven.

You are not addressing my objection. You are basically saying:

1. We get everything the Spirit has.
2. The Spirit has a status of righteousness;
3. Therefore we get the Spirit's status of righteousness.

So again: If we really get everything the Spirit has, why are we not part of the Trinity, as the Spirit is?

 

[expos4ever]

We live in a mortal/corrupt flesh body that is already dead. We are as He is. I can't help it if you don't believe it. Our sins are forgiven.

You must deal with this text from Romans 2, and I will not stop reminding you until you do:

who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Now then: what is Paul saying here?

You need to answer - I will keep asking.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I am interested in the psychology of your denial. How do you reconcile the fact that your statement clearly and directly contradicts the statement by Paul?

<sigh> I think you need to read Paul's letters with understanding for I think you argue for the sake of the argument and it is very wearisome.Paul does not contradict himself.My statement is the same as Pauls. God will pay each according to his work at the Judgement seat of Christ when reward is handed out.Paul said that we are saved UNTO good works not by good works.

 

[expos4ever]

<sigh> I think you need to read Paul's letters with understanding for I think you argue for the sake of the argument and it is very wearisome.Paul does not contradict himself.My statement is the same as Pauls. God will pay each according to his work at the Judgement seat of Christ when reward is handed out.Paul said that we are saved UNTO good works not by good works.

You must deal with this text from Romans 2, and I will not stop reminding you until you do:

who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Now then: what is Paul saying here?

You need to answer - I will keep asking.

Your repeated refusal to address this particular text will be noted by other readers. You should address the text.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I have answered, you refused the answer. Other readers will note that too.

 

[expos4ever]

I have answered, you refused the answer. Other readers will not that too.

Does it not bother you to say false things?

You have never addressed the Romans 2 text. Let me make it really easy for you. Please complete this sentence:

When Paul writes "God will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life", Paul is saying that ______________________"

Now then - no more games! Deal with this text! Stop evading by (1) making general theological pronouncements; (2) dealing with other texts.

Other texts need to be dealt with too, and I addressed Ephesian 2 in great detail.

I did not evade - I exegeted that text.

You need to deal with Romans 2:6-7 just as I dealt with Ephesians 2.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

So again: If we really get everything the Spirit has, why are we not part of the Trinity, as the Spirit

AH! Now I see your problem. You don't want to identify as a Son of the Most High. Christ is the head, we are the Body of Christ. Let that tickle your noodle.
What do you think Lord Jesus meant when He said this...
Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

We have to accept all Scripture.

Note how no one in the "good works don't matter" camp have dealt with Romans 2?

Why is that?

Let's be clear: there are, of course, texts that say "you are saved by faith alone".

But there is also Romans 2! And other texts that say works matter.

The way to resolve this, I think, is to agree that we are given the Spirit by faith and faith alone. The Spirit then transforms us into good-works generating people who thereby inherit eternal life. So, in a sense, we are indeed saved only by faith - unless we reject the Spirit, He will surely do His job and transform us into the kind of people who pass the Romans 2 judgment.

Again, why are you guys not addressing Romans 2?

I believe Jesus saves.Faith in His blood plus nothing.If
Paul says something must be done by the Believer—some tests must be passed,some level must be reached....I don’t give a rat’s patootie what it is.....it will be accomplished or Paul is a liar....that includes Rom2 or anything else one chooses to trot out.... next verse please? Lol

 

[expos4ever]

When He says He will render to us according to our deeds, He cannot be referring to salvation, but He is talking about rewards.

No. Simply and obviously no.

No rational, unbiased person who understands English can deny that the following statement - read in isolation as leasts - affirms that it is eternal life that is based on good works (even if additional rewards are also granted on the basis of works)

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Let us be clear: there is no way to misunderstand this statement, at least on its own.

So the only option is to show how, in context, Paul is saying something he does not believe. And that certainly is possible. If, earlier on in Romans 2, Paul had written: "I am about to tell you what would be the case if it were possible to be saved by good works"

Gentleman and Ladies: the floor is yours. Where does he give us any reason to believe he is not serious.

 

[expos4ever]

AH! Now I see your problem. You don't want to identify as a Son of the Most High. Christ is the head, we are the Body of Christ. Let that tickle your noodle.

Stop saying untruths please - I never said anything like this.

You have been caught making a poor argument - accept it and move on. Your claim that we get "everything the Spirit has" has been shown to be false.

Deal with - don't try to wriggle out by posting falsehoods.

 

[expos4ever]

I believe Jesus saves.Faith in His blood plus nothing.If
Paul says something must be done by the Believer—some tests must be passed,some level must be reached....I don’t give a rat’s patootie what it is.....it will be accomplished or Paul is a liar....that includes Rom2 or anything else one chooses to trot out.... next verse please? Lol

Of course. You are accounting for all that Paul says. The interesting thing is that others unashamedly refuse to deal with Romans 2.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I hope you don't mind a few more verses.
Romans2:
5-8 You’re not getting by with anything. Every refusal and avoidance of God adds fuel to the fire. The day is coming when it’s going to blaze hot and high, God’s fiery and righteous judgment. Make no mistake: In the end you get what’s coming to you—Real Life for those who work on God’s side, but to those who insist on getting their own way and take the path of least resistance, Fire!

 

[expos4ever]

I hope you don't mind a few more verses.
Romans2:
5-8 You’re not getting by with anything. Every refusal and avoidance of God adds fuel to the fire. The day is coming when it’s going to blaze hot and high, God’s fiery and righteous judgment. Make no mistake: In the end you get what’s coming to you—Real Life for those who work on God’s side, but to those who insist on getting their own way and take the path of least resistance, Fire!

What? What translation is this?

You are, I suggest, posting from a paraphrase version, not a proper "literal" translation.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Stop saying untruths please - I never said anything like this.

You have been caught making a poor argument - accept it and move on. Your claim that we get "everything the Spirit has" has been shown to be false.

Deal with - don't try to wriggle out by posting falsehoods.

Poor thing. You do not even know who you are in Christ. That is the wool that has been pulled over your eyes. I will pray that you wake up.