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Do we "deserve" hell.....

ArmyMatt

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Then God loses and is not omnipotent. Man's will is.

no, because He allows man to go to the natural end of man's choices, that does not mean He is not all powerful. it simply means He honors man's freedom. just because a bodybuilder lifts 50 lbs on a bench press, that does not mean he is that weak. it just means he chose to lift 50. God choosing to allow someone to remain in hell has nothing to do with His omnipotence, only that He honors our choice.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thank you Anastasia. Possible you could give me some link to the orthodox position on hell, so that I could compare it to my own opinions which I have outlined in my post. I am a former evangelical Christian, I've just spent 28 days in prison, for telling the truth about a local group of street evangelists. The court has banned me from naming names, so i cannot tell you what has happened, but now in the UK, when Christian leaders sin and facilitate paedophiles, they go straight to the police to silence whistleblowers such as myself. Britain is now PC mad.

River of Fire is available via PDF ... I can give you a link to that. But I should be clear here ... I've read some on the topic, but it's not a great priority to me, so I am not really confident as regards exactly how widespread what nuances may be.

I guess what I mean to say is that River of Fire is certainly acceptable reading/opinion, but it MIGHT NOT be to the exclusion of other ideas.

I'd really prefer to defer to someone more knowledgeable on the topic for those nuances, if they care to comment.

Here is a link for River of Fire Online :)
 
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Orthodoxjay1

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Saying you deserve hell is quite Orthodox. Saying other people do, is not at all.

Hench why I learned we should always want to be last, and why we pray for the heirarchs to be first.

I also learned while we all deserve hell, God is merciful, and forgiving. That is something I totally lacked in Protestantism due to doctrines like Totally depravity.
 
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ArmyMatt

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God doesn't lose because God does not desire to force everyone's will

right, since God is love and love is never forced. the fact that He gives man the option and honors that choice. since He is love, the fact that hell is eternal shows He wins.
 
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Isaac32

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God doesn't lose because God does not desire to force everyone's will
It isn't about forcing the will but rather about leaving one in darkness, which is quite the opposite. Viewed this way, one sees that it is no longer about God compelling the one condemned, but about liberating the one condemned. A human being unhindered by the passions and other distractions is inclined towards God. Thus the question isn't "Should/will God force someone to go against their will?" but "Will God leave an individual in their impairment?"

Saying that God allows some to be damned because he doesn't want to "force will" is like saying one allows an individual to remain confined in their shackles because they don't want to limit their freedom.`
 
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jckstraw72

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A human being unhindered by the passions and other distractions is inclined towards God. Thus the question isn't "Should/will God force someone to go against their will?" but "Will God leave an individual in their impairment?"

how will they get out of the impairment and shake of the passions?
 
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ArmyMatt

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It isn't about forcing the will but rather about leaving one in darkness, which is quite the opposite. Viewed this way, one sees that it is no longer about God compelling the one condemned, but about liberating the one condemned. A human being unhindered by the passions and other distractions is inclined towards God. Thus the question isn't "Should/will God force someone to go against their will?" but "Will God leave an individual in their impairment?"

Saying that God allows some to be damned because he doesn't want to "force will" is like saying one allows an individual to remain confined in their shackles because they don't want to limit their freedom.`

Actually, it's more like leaving them in their shackles, because after showing them the key and telling them they will be free, they would rather remain in the shackles. and the key is never out of their reach.
 
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Light of the East

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no, because He allows man to go to the natural end of man's choices, that does not mean He is not all powerful. it simply means He honors man's freedom. just because a bodybuilder lifts 50 lbs on a bench press, that does not mean he is that weak. it just means he chose to lift 50. God choosing to allow someone to remain in hell has nothing to do with His omnipotence, only that He honors our choice.

Matt, I hope you know that I respect and honor you, but this simply will not fly.

If God "honored his choices" with me, I would still be doing drugs, fornicating, getting drunk on the weekends, and blaspheming God. Quite frankly, I am very glad that He did not honor the wretched choices I was making between ages 18 and 22.

But let's look at this another way, which I think is in sync with Orthodox understanding of God's immense love for us. As I understand it, God never stops expressing His love towards us. As expressed in Kalomiros' RIVER OF FIRE, that continual expression of passionate love towards all mankind is that which blesses the believer and torments the saint.

Therefore, if the full expression of the love of God both chastises and torments the sinner to the point that the sinner turns to God and says "I am sorry. I was wrong. Please forgive me." then according to what you said about honoring the choice, God will then restore them to their teleological end.

I think the real distinction here is the amount of time required. Some come to this knowledge in this life. I was "hardened" in my sins. I loved them, couldn't get enough of them, and wanted nothing to do with Christians other than to make fun of their God. At what point does God say "Okay. That's what you want, you may have it." A year? Five, ten or twenty years? Or in eternity? Each person is different in the amount of time required to come to understand their nothingness without God. Some people in this never learn that lesson. They will have to see God, see His goodness, and see their true condition so that they are reduced to nothingness, according to Fr. Sergius Bulgakov.

May the sinner repent of his sins in the afterlife? Absolutely, answers Bulgakov. The departed soul does not lose his freedom and creative energy. He has acquired a new kind of existence that involves an expansion and deepening of spiritual knowledge. Repentance in the afterlife must be different from repentance in our earthly life. The departed soul no longer acts in the world as he once did. Hence he no longer has available to him the kind of penitence made possible by historical existence. But still the person may repent and change his orientation toward God:

Of course, here too, the fullness of the life of the living is different from that of the dead, and the measure of their repentance is not the same. Clearly, the repentance of the deceased, as a complex inner process of awakening to spiritual life, differs from what takes place in the living. Earthly life is a foundation for the future life, but it is not the only foundation. Earthly life and the afterlife are connected as different aspects of the one life of one and the same spirit. One usually prefers to conceive the afterlife state of “sinners” (but who is free of sin and therefore does not need to repent?) in the juridical and penitentiary form of a sentence served in an afterlife prison, without possibility of pardon or parole. However, it is completely impossible to allow that the spirit could be in a state so static, so frozen in an unchanging spasm or so immersed in passive contemplation of its past actions and deprived of the capacity for future life. … From all this we conclude that the afterlife state is not death, and not even a stupor of the spirit, but a continuation of the life of the spirit begun on earth. Thus, despite the reduced condition for this life which passes outside the body and despite a certain passivity resulting from this, the afterlife state cannot be considered as given once and for all and unchanging, with the total absence of creative freedom. Rather, it is a continuation of spiritual life, which does not end on the other side of death’s threshold. The afterlife state is a stage of the path leading to resurrection. (pp. 365-366)

(Remember, Fr. Bulkagov died in a state of holiness, with the Light of Tabor shining from his body so that all at his deathbed saw it.)

Yes, God honors our choices, but He allows us to change our minds. What you suggest is the idea that once a person dies, there is no further opportunity for change. Yet there is neither Patristic nor Scripture support for such an idea.
 
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Light of the East

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Actually, it's more like leaving them in their shackles, because after showing them the key and telling them they will be free, they would rather remain in the shackles. and the key is never out of their reach.

And after they come to their senses, as did the Prodigal, they will gladly take the key, free themselves, and kneel at the feet of the Master in repentance and sorrow for their sins.
 
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ArmyMatt

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And after they come to their senses, as did the Prodigal, they will gladly take the key, free themselves, and kneel at the feet of the Master in repentance and sorrow for their sins.

we hope, but they have the capacity to eternally reject the key. some might not come to their senses, as it were.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Matt, I hope you know that I respect and honor you, but this simply will not fly.

respect for you too, but the Fathers say it does.

If God "honored his choices" with me, I would still be doing drugs, fornicating, getting drunk on the weekends, and blaspheming God. Quite frankly, I am very glad that He did not honor the wretched choices I was making between ages 18 and 22.

He did, just because you came around, that does not mean everyone will.

But let's look at this another way, which I think is in sync with Orthodox understanding of God's immense love for us. As I understand it, God never stops expressing His love towards us. As expressed in Kalomiros' RIVER OF FIRE, that continual expression of passionate love towards all mankind is that which blesses the believer and torments the saint.

Therefore, if the full expression of the love of God both chastises and torments the sinner to the point that the sinner turns to God and says "I am sorry. I was wrong. Please forgive me." then according to what you said about honoring the choice, God will then restore them to their teleological end.

absolutely, but some might NOT say they are sorry or ask forgiveness.

I think the real distinction here is the amount of time required. Some come to this knowledge in this life. I was "hardened" in my sins. I loved them, couldn't get enough of them, and wanted nothing to do with Christians other than to make fun of their God. At what point does God say "Okay. That's what you want, you may have it." A year? Five, ten or twenty years? Or in eternity? Each person is different in the amount of time required to come to understand their nothingness without God. Some people in this never learn that lesson. They will have to see God, see His goodness, and see their true condition so that they are reduced to nothingness, according to Fr. Sergius Bulgakov.

May the sinner repent of his sins in the afterlife? Absolutely, answers Bulgakov. The departed soul does not lose his freedom and creative energy. He has acquired a new kind of existence that involves an expansion and deepening of spiritual knowledge. Repentance in the afterlife must be different from repentance in our earthly life. The departed soul no longer acts in the world as he once did. Hence he no longer has available to him the kind of penitence made possible by historical existence. But still the person may repent and change his orientation toward God:

Of course, here too, the fullness of the life of the living is different from that of the dead, and the measure of their repentance is not the same. Clearly, the repentance of the deceased, as a complex inner process of awakening to spiritual life, differs from what takes place in the living. Earthly life is a foundation for the future life, but it is not the only foundation. Earthly life and the afterlife are connected as different aspects of the one life of one and the same spirit. One usually prefers to conceive the afterlife state of “sinners” (but who is free of sin and therefore does not need to repent?) in the juridical and penitentiary form of a sentence served in an afterlife prison, without possibility of pardon or parole. However, it is completely impossible to allow that the spirit could be in a state so static, so frozen in an unchanging spasm or so immersed in passive contemplation of its past actions and deprived of the capacity for future life. … From all this we conclude that the afterlife state is not death, and not even a stupor of the spirit, but a continuation of the life of the spirit begun on earth. Thus, despite the reduced condition for this life which passes outside the body and despite a certain passivity resulting from this, the afterlife state cannot be considered as given once and for all and unchanging, with the total absence of creative freedom. Rather, it is a continuation of spiritual life, which does not end on the other side of death’s threshold. The afterlife state is a stage of the path leading to resurrection. (pp. 365-366)

and no disputes here. just because some folks might repent between death and the Resurrection (even St Mark of Ephesus says this is possible), that does not mean that all WILL repent.

(Remember, Fr. Bulkagov died in a state of holiness, with the Light of Tabor shining from his body so that all at his deathbed saw it.)

and he taught the heresy of Sophism as well. just because even a saint teaches something, that does not mean that his theology is square. it's the consensus that matters. plus, at least what you quoted, does not contradict the eternality of hell.

Yes, God honors our choices, but He allows us to change our minds. What you suggest is the idea that once a person dies, there is no further opportunity for change. Yet there is neither Patristic nor Scripture support for such an idea.

I never said that after someone dies there are no chances left, actually I have said the opposite in plenty of other threads.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think the other thing is that for us Orthodox, hell does not exist until the great Judgment when everyone's body will be resurrected. certainly some can be cast into hades after death so that when Judgment Day happens, they seek God's mercy (that was one of St Mark of Ephesus' teachings). it is certainly possible for ALL who are in hades to do that, but just because they can, that does not mean they will.

since it is only God who knows and judges, we should not say how it will end, even though we do pray for the salvation of all
 
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Light of the East

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we hope, but they have the capacity to eternally reject the key. some might not come to their senses, as it were.

I guess that is the best thing that I can say at this time. I don't feel I can say I am a full-blown, committed, die-hard Universalist, but I do have a great hope in God's abundant and overflowing mercy.

One thing that understanding the Universalist writings has done (and is still doing) for me is that I see our Father in a new light - one of His immense love for mankind. It was kind of hard to see Him in that light as one understanding Western punitive and retributive eschatology. This gives me hope and more love for Him.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I guess that is the best thing that I can say at this time. I don't feel I can say I am a full-blown, committed, die-hard Universalist, but I do have a great hope in God's abundant and overflowing mercy.

yes, as we all should.

One thing that understanding the Universalist writings has done (and is still doing) for me is that I see our Father in a new light - one of His immense love for mankind. It was kind of hard to see Him in that light as one understanding Western punitive and retributive eschatology. This gives me hope and more love for Him.

indeed, so those in hell are still loved by God, and that love is what causes the torment. it's not that He loves them any less, it's that they reject His love and cannot flee His love.
 
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Light of the East

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yes, as we all should.

Indeed, so those in hell are still loved by God, and that love is what causes the torment. it's not that He loves them any less, it's that they reject His love and cannot flee His love.

That's exactly my belief. I first learned of this Orthodox understanding (in direct opposition to Dante's Inferno and Western eschatology) when I read Dr. Alexandre Kalomiros' paper THE RIVER OF FIRE. The minute I finished it I loved it all. It is totally in sync with "God is love" and yet puts the responsibility for our destiny in our hands. It is indeed we who reject His love, and not He who tortures mankind like some vicious "god" of the pagan deities.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That's exactly my belief. I first learned of this Orthodox understanding (in direct opposition to Dante's Inferno and Western eschatology) when I read Dr. Alexandre Kalomiros' paper THE RIVER OF FIRE. The minute I finished it I loved it all. It is totally in sync with "God is love" and yet puts the responsibility for our destiny in our hands. It is indeed we who reject His love, and not He who tortures mankind like some vicious "god" of the pagan deities.

indeed, so hell for us is God's love.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I guess that is the best thing that I can say at this time. I don't feel I can say I am a full-blown, committed, die-hard Universalist, but I do have a great hope in God's abundant and overflowing mercy.

One thing that understanding the Universalist writings has done (and is still doing) for me is that I see our Father in a new light - one of His immense love for mankind. It was kind of hard to see Him in that light as one understanding Western punitive and retributive eschatology. This gives me hope and more love for Him.

I have to agree.

I would NOT call myself a universalist. In fact, I certainly fear and suspect there will almost surely be those in torment.

I can't explain the mindset it would seem to take to reject a loving God so utterly, which I hope will be the level of hardness required to end up that way. But I have known some frighteningly bitter and hard people who did all they could to convince me of their absolute hatred for and/or rejection of God.

I kind of understand the idea of those who receive poor efforts at evangelization rejecting God - especially the one epitomized by the meme showing Jesus knocking at the door saying, "let me in, so I can save you" and the person asking "save me from what?" and Jesus answering "save you from what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me in!"

I remember when I first came to CF and used the word "saved" and someone asked me what I was saved from. That really took me aback. I was afraid to answer, as I recall, but I came to see that my Theology wasn't all that different from the meme. (It's kind of ironic - I better knew the "real" Jesus as a small child and loved Him ... it got difficult for me when I tried to reconcile that Person with God the Father as presented in my Old Testament children's Bible book.)

But if that's the Jesus someone is presented with, no wonder they refuse to believe in Him! (I don't believe in that Jesus either!)

But God is good, and loving, and will do what is right. I hope that people who have received only that presentation of the Gospel will find mercy. Many of them have hearts inclined to goodness and mercy. I think that must be something put there by the Divine, if only in that man was originally created in His image and likeness.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

My real point was that, I agree with you. I can't call myself a universalist. But I fervently, fervently hope for the salvation of every person. And I believe we can and should pray for them all, though I think we need to be careful not to have expectations of what God will do with those prayers.

And like you, the idea of hell presented in the River of Fire makes SO much sense. Finally, I can reconcile all the words of Scripture - all of them - with a God Who TRULY IS love, just as He said, without having to invent some framework or story on which to hang all the incompatible interpretations that go with my background.

And I thank God for letting me see things a bit clearly, and helping me to be honest with myself about what I saw. Matters of faith are no small thing, and there is a very real tendency to draw back like a turtle into a protective shell and hold fast to what one was taught, and refuse to dissect and examine it, for fear of breaking it (or one's faith). While I value spiritual honesty, I think that reaction is usually motivated by at least some degree of desire for faithfulness, so I try to look kindly on anyone who does respond that way, and respect that as a virtue in them. Again, God is good and loving, and will do what is right.

I think there is cause for much hope. Glory to God!
 
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