Do we "deserve" hell.....

[Light of the East]

What would be the Orthodox position on such a statement? I was perusing a Catholic forum board and the statement was made that all mankind "deserves" hell. That sounds to me like one is approaching our being and salvation again from a legal position. In other words, rather than saying that hell is a consequence of our choices, it makes it sound like:

"You chose sin therefore you deserve to be punished."

Punishment as law rather than consequence.

Thoughts?

 

[Winken]

Eternal separation from God is the consequence of denying His Son, Jesus.

 

[dogs4thewin]

We do deserve Hell; that is the whole idea of consequences cause and effect. I take certain actions good or bad and suffer or benefit from them.

 

[Light of the East]

Okay....but do we "deserve" it or is it pure consequence? Do you see the issue here? To say that one "deserves" hell sounds to me like more of the same Western legal mindset. One could easily then slip into saying that unbaptized babies "deserve" hell simply because of their organic connection to Adam and ancestral sin.

When I choose a certain action which I know is wrong, I may very well "deserve" a certain action from another to bring justice to my actions. But if I do something in ignorance, it can hardly be said that I "deserve" something. Yet Western theology seems to constantly harp on the idea that all mankind "deserves" the response of God sending them to hell.

See the difference I see?

 

[dogs4thewin]

Okay....but do we "deserve" it or is it pure consequence? Do you see the issue here? To say that one "deserves" hell sounds to me like more of the same Western legal mindset. One could easily then slip into saying that unbaptized babies "deserve" hell simply because of their organic connection to Adam and ancestral sin.

When I choose a certain action which I know is wrong, I may very well "deserve" a certain action from another to bring justice to my actions. But if I do something in ignorance, it can hardly be said that I "deserve" something. Yet Western theology seems to constantly harp on the idea that all mankind "deserves" the response of God sending them to hell.

See the difference I see?

Some people say that God judges based on what is known and others say He judges simply on sin. In other words, some people feel that you will NOT go to Hell if you honestly never got the chance to hear about or understand the gift of grace. This could be because you never heard as in remote places in Africa or it could be because you had not reached the age of accountability or otherwise were unable to understand concepts an adult with VERY low IQ for example.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm guessing since you posted in TAW that you want the Orthodox point of view. It doesn't look like one of our EO members have answered yet.

I'd rather stand back on this one .. I have an idea but I'm far from confident that my answer would be a correct representation of Orthodoxy, and there's no sense in me muddying the water even more.

I look forward to answers on this ...

 

[CGL1023]

Okay....but do we "deserve" it or is it pure consequence? Do you see the issue here? To say that one "deserves" hell sounds to me like more of the same Western legal mindset. One could easily then slip into saying that unbaptized babies "deserve" hell simply because of their organic connection to Adam and ancestral sin.

When I choose a certain action which I know is wrong, I may very well "deserve" a certain action from another to bring justice to my actions. But if I do something in ignorance, it can hardly be said that I "deserve" something. Yet Western theology seems to constantly harp on the idea that all mankind "deserves" the response of God sending them to hell.

See the difference I see?

It sounds like you believe, "unbaptized babies "deserve" hell" as you rely on that being true to continue you argument.

I am displaying the segment of scripture that portrays David's infant son in heaven where David would eventually go. I first read about this in a Jack Hayford book. It showed that infants who die are not considered deserving of hell/death. It was surely a hopeful message considering all the infant deaths around the world including aborted babies.

2 Samuel 12:16-23 English Standard Version (ESV)
16 David therefore sought God on behalf of the child. And David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground, but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, “Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he did not listen to us. How then can we say to him the child is dead? He may do himself some harm.” 19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David understood that the child was dead. And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.”20 Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” 22 He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

 

[jckstraw72]

i would say yes, we absolutely deserve it

 

[truefiction1]

If we choose to love the darkness, then yes, if we choose to Love God (the Light) instead, then no.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

Saying you deserve hell is quite Orthodox. Saying other people do, is not at all.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Saying you deserve hell is quite Orthodox. Saying other people do, is not at all.

This resonates quite well with everything I've read.

Which in essence makes it a matter of personal spirituality rather than universal theology, in a sense. So while I think it is THE answer, it doesn't answer in the sense I think the OP was asking. (Or maybe it does?)

 

[ArmyMatt]

we deserve it in the sense that it is the end of our choices and a sinful and unrepentant life. we do not say we deserve it in a Middle Ages West sense.

 

[Isaac32]

I think that we Orthodox Christians should always hesitate to answer questions like these because we often understand the terms so differently than does the person asking the question. Often times, what we are actually affirming isn't what the inquirer thinks we are affirming. I have even heard some Orthodox folks go so far as to say that we shouldn't even use terms like heaven and hell in conversations with Western Christians because of how radically different our understanding often is.

In order to give this question an adequate answer I think it is first necessary to highlight how Orthodox Christians understand sin, death, heaven, hell, and eschatalogy (end-times views). The cosmos is groaning in agony as a result of the fall and it is Christ who offers a remedy to this sickness and pain. We don't "deserve" hell by merely existing as part of this fallen universe, and even the most innocent experience its negative consequences. The only way in which we might deserve hell is if we choose it, but even here we shouldn't be so quick to claim one is deserving of such a fate because we can't know the circumstances that led them to conduct themselves as they do.

In short, then, I don't think it is helpful to speak about people deserving hell because 1) "deserve" is a legal term with a lot of baggage and 2) we have no way of knowing what an individual does and doesn't deserve. I think it is best to merely recognize that we are fallen sinners that depend on Christ for our salvation, whether punishment is a just dessert or a mere consequence that comes with existence.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

This resonates quite well with everything I've read.

Which in essence makes it a matter of personal spirituality rather than universal theology, in a sense. So while I think it is THE answer, it doesn't answer in the sense I think the OP was asking. (Or maybe it does?)

Well--in Orthodoxy--is there really a distinction between general theology and personal spirituality? In truth, we cannot say who else deserves what, that is a mystery known only to God, for that judgement is God's and God's alone, and we are absolutely not to preempt him regarding it. God only tells us this: we will never be rebuked for failing to judge others, or for judging ourselves excessively.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well--in Orthodoxy--is there really a distinction between general theology and personal spirituality? In truth, we cannot say who else deserves what, that is a mystery known only to God, for that judgement is God's and God's alone, and we are absolutely not to preempt him regarding it. God only tells us this: we will never be rebuked for failing to judge others, or for judging ourselves excessively.

True. But my point is that I think the OP is doing some general exploring of Orthodox thought. Which what you posted IS Orthodox thought, but it doesn't get into such things as theological distinctions of how we view hell, etc, which I think it was good of Isaac to answer. This is why I love forums - sometimes an issue gets fleshed out little by little from different points of view.

 

[eartheart]

I do not believe one word of any Catholic/Orthodox doctrine.

To me its all full pagan, death worship, prayer beads etc. There is no "one Church" in fact there are seven, one however, is not charged, it is pure love to the point of lifting your arms in public to the lord without regard of any mans jugdment.
As for those - especially for those that practice Catholic faith, I have nothing against, in fact they take their faith so seriously It is hard to charge them of the smallest amount of being unfaithful to Christ.
Let no man deceive you, NO MAN. Your grace in the scripture is devotion to the Father.
I would never talk my grandma out of Catholicism for it would kill her spiritually, the ones who go to hell are those who stay there.
No man made system can condemn one to hell fire, Jesus gives us his light yoke! Brake these chains lord Jesus!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Let no man deceive you, NO MAN. Your grace in the scripture is devotion to the Father.

since all you offered is opinion devoid of any context (and a whole lot of straw manning of our beliefs), I will take your advice and not let you deceive me, especially since your second sentence here is not actually in Scripture. I always find it ironic that those that go out of their way to post this kind of stuff, never actually back up what they say.

plus, this post violates our forum rules and is like reading a bad Jack Chick Track

 

[eartheart]

I do not believe one word of any Catholic/Orthodox doctrine.

To me its all full pagan, death worship, prayer beads etc. There is no "one Church" in fact there are seven, one however, is not charged, it is pure love to the point of lifting your arms in public to the lord without regard of any mans jugdment.
As for those - especially for those that practice Catholic faith, I have nothing against, in fact they take their faith so seriously It is hard to charge them of the smallest amount of being unfaithful to Christ.
Let no man deceive you, NO MAN. Your grace in the scripture is devotion to the Father.
I would never talk my grandma out of Catholicism for it would kill her spiritually, the ones who go to hell are those who stay there.
No man made system can condemn one to hell fire, Jesus gives us his light yoke! Brake these chains lord Jesus!

since all you offered is opinion devoid of any context (and a whole lot of straw manning of our beliefs), I will take your advice and not let you deceive me, especially since your second sentence here is not actually in Scripture.

plus, this post violates our forum rules

Paul recognized false doctrine entering into the Church in his time.
But the Church nowadays condemns me to hell for not worshipping Mary strictly with ancient world beads and blind reciting to things that have no eyes to see nor ears to hear.
Like i said, i do not judge Catholic believers since Christ is in their name, but as far as the Pope and its pagan rites that they snuck in condemning me with man made dogma, I do not accept.
grace is fellowship with Christ through scripture and not through man.
Dont put words in my mouth, you are nor I am an enemy of our Lord.

 

[seekingsolace]

eartheart: you aren't allowed to debate issues or teach against the theology in TAW. If you wish to debate with regards to a thread in the main forum, start a new thread in the St. Justin Martyr’s Corner please.

 

[eartheart]

The seven churches are in revelation. One of them is not charged, if thats what you are referring to.
As for the public display of Gods devotion, I apologize for not knowing the exact local but I remember it actually being in the OT.