Do the Saved have the free will to commit sin in heaven? Will we always be able to?

Gospel Guy

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Jesus was resurrected with the same body with which he died. That body apparently was absorbed into our atmosphere as he was moving into his spiritual body when he ascended. The perfect spiritual body will not have any scars or imperfections such as Jesus had as the result of his torturous death on the cross.

That's not true... Jesus in Heaven right now still has the scars from the nails in His hands, the scar of where they pierced His side, and the scars on His back from the beating He took on the way to the Cross.

Sure, it's all perfectly healed now... but the scares remain. He is forever in His physical Body as are we.

We will have our resurrected physical body and it will be made whole to where it functions perfectly. Eventually we will all be living here in earth, in this physical world once God re-creates the earth and moves Heaven and His throne here to live with man forever... so we are going to have to have a physical body not to mention the gifts and callings of God are without repentance so He's not taking away our body.
 
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Evergreen48

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That's not true... Jesus in Heaven right now still has the scars from the nails in His hands, the scar of where they pierced His side, and the scars on His back from the beating He took on the way to the Cross.

Sure, it's all perfectly healed now... but the scares remain. He is forever in His physical Body as are we.

We will have our resurrected physical body and it will be made whole to where it functions perfectly. Eventually we will all be living here in earth, in this physical world once God re-creates the earth and moves Heaven and His throne here to live with man forever... so we are going to have to have a physical body not to mention the gifts and callings of God are without repentance so He's not taking away our body.

God has nothing that he would need to repent of. So when "repentance " is applied to God, it would simply mean a change of purpose. The reference is in Rom. 11:29 and that is directed towards God's calling the Isralites to be his special people. He had a purpose for doing this and that has not changed.

The new heavens and new earth are not literal but are of the spiritual nature. They have already come down from God, the old having passed away.

Jesus came to fulfill the law and has done so.

Matt. 5:18. "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

If this is not true then are the Jews still under the law and we, the Gentiles, have also been placed there under it as well.

As far as God moving his throne to earth, there is no scriptural backing for that premise, besides the fact that God does not sit on a literal throne. A throne, as we know a throne to be, could never, never, hold all of God. Neither could this earth. God must have the unending expanse of the heavens, for his being, as he cannot be contained as we are contained on this earth.

In order for your theory to survive, a few scriptures would have to be overlooked, 1Cor. 15:44 and 1John 3:2 being among them.

1 Cor. 15:44. "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
1 John 3:2. "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

The following being the most telling of all:
2Cor. 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. "
 
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Evergreen48

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That's totally funny... I never said anything about God needing to repent :doh:




I' m glad you at least have a sense of humor. :D However, you did mention that "the gifts and callings of God are without repentance".
Gospel Guy said:
. . . . so we are going to have to have a physical body not to mention the gifts and callings of God are without repentance so He's not taking away our body.

I trust that you do understand what the common definition of "repentance " is. I took it that you believed that our physical bodies are a gift from God and that he was not going to take back that gift. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

So, I assume that this will be your only reply to my comment. Is that correct?
 
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DrBubbaLove

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God didn't say that it was good that he gave us a body. The scripture says that "God saw everything that he had made and it was very good." . But the impression is given that God was pleased with all of his handiwork. And as you said, this was before man sinned.

As Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God [1Cor. 15:50], the physical body is the temporary house of [the mind of] the person who comes into existence when they are born from above of the Spirit of God.

1Cor. 15:44. "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

We must shed our natural body so that the true child of God can be disclosed or uncovered. (Rom. 2:19)

Since it is appointed unto EVERY person once to die (Hebrews 9:27), then die we must, and this is how the natural body will be shed.
If it pleased God to make us this way as opposed to some other, then this is what we are. And that is true whether the race fell or not. He did not start out with a "spirit man", He made Adam from scratch and gave him a human soul. Body and a soul is what we are, not a "spirit man" trapped in an evil body. That we have a "fallen" nature is true, but it does not change the way He made us, a spirit and a body forming one being.
 
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Gospel Guy

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This scripture is referring to once God gives gifts, He does not take them back because if it was not His will to give the gift, He wouldn't have given it in the first place.

Since He gave us a physical body... we will live for eternity in a physical body that will be a glorified body like Jesus has right now seated at the right hand of the Father.
 
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Evergreen48

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Gospel Guy said:
This scripture is referring to once God gives gifts, He does not take them back because if it was not His will to give the gift, He wouldn't have given it in the first place.

The scripture I believe you are referring to is found in Rom. 11:28. It has reference to God's bestowing gifts on his church. The quotation is from Psalms 68:18. ("Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious [the Gentiles] also, that the LORD God might dwell among them". )

Ephe. 4:11. "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: 14. That we from now on be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;. . . . " . Of course he did not take those gifts back, but that is not what that particular passage of scriptures is about.

I don't understand how you are connecting gifts from God to the subject at hand, unless you believe that your physical body is a gift from God. But at any rate, gift or not, it is plain that it was not meant to last forever, or God would not have made it subject to vanity ( mataiotés ----- meaning purposelessness or frailty) and corruptibility. (Rom. 8:20-21) But that does not mean that God takes it back. Like many other gifts that God gives us it is used up while in the process of serving its intended purpose.

Since He gave us a physical body... we will live for eternity in a physical body that will be a glorified body like Jesus has right now seated at the right hand of the Father.

The scripture has been given to show that there is a natural or earthly body which was meant to live on this earth, and that there is a spiritual body which has been prepared for us to live in in the spiritual abode. If you refuse to accept what the scripture teaches about the matter, then there lies a problem for you.

Can you tell me where the term "glorified body is found in the scriptures? I have heard the "glorified body" phrase many times, but I'm not sure what that would mean, since to be glorified simply means that a person is held in high esteem, they are praised and honored almost to the point of being worshiped.
 
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Evergreen48

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If it pleased God to make us this way as opposed to some other, then this is what we are. And that is true whether the race fell or not. He did not start out with a "spirit man", He made Adam from scratch and gave him a human soul. Body and a soul is what we are, not a "spirit man" trapped in an evil body. That we have a "fallen" nature is true, but it does not change the way He made us, a spirit and a body forming one being.

Is that your final answer? :)
 
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Gospel Guy

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God would not have been made subject to vanity

God is not the One who caused mankind to fall in to sin... God never intended for Adam to sin, He intended for Adam to co-labor with Him to keep satan under control until the end of man's appointed time as God's under ruler over the earth... until God moved Heaven to earth permanently.

When studying end times events, we see this is what happens in the end... and since God never changes, this is what He was wanting from the start, so this is what He's going to get.
 
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Evergreen48

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God is not the One who caused mankind to fall in to sin... God never intended for Adam to sin, He intended for Adam to co-labor with Him to keep satan under control until the end of man's appointed time as God's under ruler over the earth... until God moved Heaven to earth permanently.

When studying end times events, we see this is what happens in the end... and since God never changes, this is what He was wanting from the start, so this is what He's going to get.


I really don't think we are on the same level of understanding, but I thank you for your time, and if this were in person, I would offer a hand of friendship to you. :)

May God bless you.
 
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Phantasman

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That's not true... Jesus in Heaven right now still has the scars from the nails in His hands, the scar of where they pierced His side, and the scars on His back from the beating He took on the way to the Cross.

Sure, it's all perfectly healed now... but the scares remain. He is forever in His physical Body as are we.

We will have our resurrected physical body and it will be made whole to where it functions perfectly. Eventually we will all be living here in earth, in this physical world once God re-creates the earth and moves Heaven and His throne here to live with man forever... so we are going to have to have a physical body not to mention the gifts and callings of God are without repentance so He's not taking away our body.

You are way out there to me. All physical, is what Jesus termed where worms eat. Matter decays, no matter where it is in this universe. It has laws that must be followed.

Christ speaks of a place, a "realm" that is spiritual, non matter. You seem to think new bodies are physical. That Jesus is still physical. Decaying. In the elements. Your perceptions are that of people 2500 years ago with no intellect, before Christ. Maybe you're a Revelationist. But if you truly prayed and studied, you would see that the scriptures are not literal, but try to explain something we are not familiar with in parables.

I'm curious to figure out just where you believe God is.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Is that your final answer? :)
Well yeah. As it appears the final answer of others is that it CANNOT be GOOD that God made us this way and what He really meant to say when He created us was that we are currently just good enough, but we can get better by shedding these bodies.

Which at least suggest that what is making us only "good enough" and not GOOD, is our bodies. While that makes a good case for all us needing to be immediately annihilated so we then are free from these bodies holding us back, am not sure that was the intent of such thoughts.

If the idea of having a body makes us only good enough and NOT Good were true, then it means the body detracts from goodness, said another way our bodies are evil. This line of thinking is dangerous and for these reasons was rejected long, long ago by the ancients the first time it was suggested. Which centered on whether Jesus (GOOD) could really be a real man or not - or maybe more specifically whether His body was really human or not. So yeah, that is my final answer, which simply reflects the same teachings used to reject such thoughts almost 2 millenium ago.
 
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Onieu

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"Do the saved saints and angels in the hereafter have the free will to choose to do evil and thus get themselves thrown out of heaven like Satan and his angels previously did ?" Yes they have the free will, because if they dont it would be tyrannical and not true love. True love is chosen and unforced. it is freely given when it doesn't have to be. Just like it was before, if someone were to sin, they would be cast out of heaven and sent to hell forever.

"Could for example Mary, Moses, Peter or Paul choose (using their choice, their will) to commit sin, or don't they have that "privilege" ?" They necessarily must have that privilege or i think God is unjust. another thing is that God made humans in the image of God. being in the image of god, they are themselves gods as Messiah says in the gospel of john. We should also note in the Law of Moses in the old testament we are told to "not speak evil against the gods" the "gods" being humans. so we must have free will or else we wouldn't truly be able to be called "gods" like Scripture calls us.

"Do the saved have the free will to commit sin in heaven, and (presumably) get themselves cast out, or do the saved in heaven have a reprieve from such inclinations ?" they have the free will; if they didn't, there was no point for free will existing in the first place! if you can be in heaven without free will, then free will does NOT need to exist in the first place. those who say we dont need free iwll anymore once we enter heaven are a bit inconsistent because if we dont deserve to go/be in heaven unless we enter it by free will then on what basis would we deserve to remain/be in heaven without free will? complete contradiction of the standard teachings of christianity. its either no free iwll forever from beginning to end or free iwll always/forever from beginning to end.

"The saint Moses committed at least one sin in his 120 years, and the same goes for all the saints in the Scriptures." i disagree but that is mostly irrelevant; once we are in heaven, it will be much harder to sin due to having superior bodies, superior minds, and less temptations presenting to us.
 
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Hoshiyya

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" once we are in heaven, it will be much harder to sin due to having superior bodies, superior minds, and less temptations presenting to us."

If god can make it harder to sin, why not do it now?

Also how does it not violate free will ?
Is it harder to WILL to sin? So our will is then less free.
 
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Onieu

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" once we are in heaven, it will be much harder to sin due to having superior bodies, superior minds, and less temptations presenting to us."

If god can make it harder to sin, why not do it now?

Also how does it not violate free will ?
Is it harder to WILL to sin? So our will is then less free.

I would actually put a different spin on it, that our will is perfectly free when there is the most basic presence of sources of temptation. and that when sources of temptation are intensified, it makes us less free, because the more difficult to overcome sin, the more likely we will choose to be in bondage to sin. without an intense temptation you have a 100% perfectly free choice: do you want it or dont you; no pressure. with intense temptation there is now extreme pressure to sin. with pressure to sin, your ability to choose freely is hindered only in the sense that it makes it harder to make a perfectly free choice.

There is no violation of free will because the choice to sin is still 100% there no matter how hard or easy it is to sin. free will is simply the ability to choose between what you want without being forced by another agent to choose it. so if someone holds a gun to your head and demands you to do something, even in this instance your free will has not been violated: you can refuse to obey the commands of that maniac gunman. but with a gun to your head it makes you much more likely to give in to the gunman's demands. so the gunman hinders your ability to make sound choices. but it does not disable your ability. if airplanes and cars and boats stopped working, it wouldn't prevent your ability to travel to another country, it was just significantly hinder it; thus so long as you still have the freewill/ability to travel to another country, you still have the freewill/ability even though its been hindered by the obstacles being presented against you.

as to why he doesnt' make it harder to sin now rather than later, i would say its because as mortals, our nature is such that we cant have a 100% unhindered type of choice nature. because being mortals there will be various pains we have to go through necessarily and we will have to suffer from the fact that we are ignorant and limited, and that we have to work harder to get the good things we want. the angels being immortal have much more knowledge, ability and intellectual capacity that make them better to do their jobs. withi not having as advanced bodies/natures as the angels, we are by definition more susceptible to temtpations than they are. this is solely because we are mortals. if GOd had not made mortals then we would have had a much easier time to choose the right thing. so a better question might be why did God make mortals in the first place.
 
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Hoshiyya

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I would actually put a different spin on it, that our will is perfectly free when there is the most basic presence of sources of temptation. and that when sources of temptation are intensified, it makes us less free, because the more difficult to overcome sin, the more likely we will choose to be in bondage to sin. without an intense temptation you have a 100% perfectly free choice: do you want it or dont you; no pressure. with intense temptation there is now extreme pressure to sin. with pressure to sin, your ability to choose freely is hindered only in the sense that it makes it harder to make a perfectly free choice.

There is no violation of free will because the choice to sin is still 100% there no matter how hard or easy it is to sin. free will is simply the ability to choose between what you want without being forced by another agent to choose it. so if someone holds a gun to your head and demands you to do something, even in this instance your free will has not been violated: you can refuse to obey the commands of that maniac gunman. but with a gun to your head it makes you much more likely to give in to the gunman's demands. so the gunman hinders your ability to make sound choices. but it does not disable your ability. if airplanes and cars and boats stopped working, it wouldn't prevent your ability to travel to another country, it was just significantly hinder it; thus so long as you still have the freewill/ability to travel to another country, you still have the freewill/ability even though its been hindered by the obstacles being presented against you.

as to why he doesnt' make it harder to sin now rather than later, i would say its because as mortals, our nature is such that we cant have a 100% unhindered type of choice nature. because being mortals there will be various pains we have to go through necessarily and we will have to suffer from the fact that we are ignorant and limited, and that we have to work harder to get the good things we want. the angels being immortal have much more knowledge, ability and intellectual capacity that make them better to do their jobs. withi not having as advanced bodies/natures as the angels, we are by definition more susceptible to temtpations than they are. this is solely because we are mortals. if GOd had not made mortals then we would have had a much easier time to choose the right thing. so a better question might be why did God make mortals in the first place.

"There is no violation of free will because the choice to sin is still 100% there no matter how hard or easy it is to sin"

So God can make it harder for us to sin without violating our free will.
If so, he could do that for us now then.

"as to why he doesnt' make it harder to sin now rather than later, i would say its because as mortals, our nature is such that we cant have a 100% unhindered type of choice nature. because being mortals there will be various pains we have to go through necessarily and we will have to suffer from the fact that we are ignorant and limited, and that we have to work harder to get the good things we want."

Sounds like you say we have to earn the right to not be tempted . . . ?
 
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