Everyone will be resurrected, regardless of their faith in Christ - but Ultimate Reconciliation is a lie

[Cassian]

Show me. Start with your first sentence. How does the atonement actually free all of mankind from death and the power of sin?

John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who is committing sin, is a servant of sin,"

Amazing? We have spent several posts where I have already explained this, But, nevertheless,
Lets start with the fall. Adam sinned, consequence, death and all those following Adam sin because they are mortal. This would have been a permanent state in this universe. Everything dying and ceasing to live. There would not have been an eternity.
Now, Christ was the solution. He came into this world, born Incarnate, that is took on our human nature that was dead, and caused us to sin.
When Christ arose, He defeated death and provided not just an eternal existence, but by ending also the power of sin, both tools of the devil,
Now all men have a choice again, We can have a relationship in this life with God by simply believing, and then following in His footsteps to be perfected. We are not saved in this life because we have the same test that faced Adam in the beginning. We are being tested to remain faithful in doing His will in our lives.
Just to give you the other side, Those who choose not to follow Christ, reject Him will have their just rewards of eternal damnation. There is nothing stopping any man to have a relationship with God.

If you want a real short version of the atonement it is this.
Christ who tasted death for all men Heb 2:9 defeated death by his resurrection, I Cor 15:20-22
Christ performed a sacrifice for sin, all sin for all men, I John 2:2..

 

[Mark Quayle]

Amazing? We have spent several posts where I have already explained this, But, nevertheless,
Lets start with the fall. Adam sinned, consequence, death and all those following Adam sin because they are mortal. This would have been a permanent state in this universe. Everything dying and ceasing to live. There would not have been an eternity.
Now, Christ was the solution. He came into this world, born Incarnate, that is took on our human nature that was dead, and caused us to sin.
When Christ arose, He defeated death and provided not just an eternal existence, but by ending also the power of sin, both tools of the devil,
Now all men have a choice again, We can have a relationship in this life with God by simply believing, and then following in His footsteps to be perfected. We are not saved in this life because we have the same test that faced Adam in the beginning. We are being tested to remain faithful in doing His will in our lives.
Just to give you the other side, Those who choose not to follow Christ, reject Him will have their just rewards of eternal damnation. There is nothing stopping any man to have a relationship with God.

If you want a real short version of the atonement it is this.
Christ who tasted death for all men Heb 2:9 defeated death by his resurrection, I Cor 15:20-22
Christ performed a sacrifice for sin, all sin for all men, I John 2:2..

Here you jump a step or two: You said, "When Christ arose, He defeated death and provided not just an eternal existence, but by ending also the power of sin, both tools of the devil", which you immediately followed with "Now all men have a choice again," Apparently there is something here that you take to be natural fact, that you can assume all readers ought to know, so that you can jump from "he defeated death, ending the power of sin" to "Now all men have a choice again". Just to start you off on the right foot, show me how what Christ did applies to all men in the here and now. (After all, you are the one that tried to tell me that what Christ accomplished during this life (salvation) only has consequential "what happens after" in the afterlife. Even that, and not only what *I* think, denies this implication of a resulting change to man during this life. You are contradicting your own former statements in post #102 and following.)

Next, you seem to think that "all men have a choice again" implies that all men are capable of choosing Christ. You have not proven even that. The ability to choose does not imply the ability to choose what is right and good, even if you assume that the option of what is right and good is placed before the chooser for his consideration. And here Scripture quite obviously agrees with good logic, in plainly stating that the mind of flesh is at enmity with God, unable to submit to God's law and unable to please God. Yes, still Romans 8. You have a long row to hoe, and you haven't even gotten your blade to disturb the ground.

The rest of your errors (or at least the ones I see) I will leave alone for now. No doubt you will repeat them later.

 

[Cassian]

Here you jump a step or two: You said, "When Christ arose, He defeated death and provided not just an eternal existence, but by ending also the power of sin, both tools of the devil", which you immediately followed with "Now all men have a choice again," Apparently there is something here that you take to be natural fact, that you can assume all readers ought to know, so that you can jump from "he defeated death, ending the power of sin" to "Now all men have a choice again". Just to start you off on the right foot, show me how what Christ did applies to all men in the here and now. (After all, you are the one that tried to tell me that what Christ accomplished during this life (salvation) only has consequential "what happens after" in the afterlife. Even that, and not only what *I* think, denies this implication of a resulting change to man during this life. You are contradicting your own former statements in post #102 and following.)

Next, you seem to think that "all men have a choice again" implies that all men are capable of choosing Christ. You have not proven even that. The ability to choose does not imply the ability to choose what is right and good, even if you assume that the option of what is right and good is placed before the chooser for his consideration. And here Scripture quite obviously agrees with good logic, in plainly stating that the mind of flesh is at enmity with God, unable to submit to God's law and unable to please God. Yes, still Romans 8. You have a long row to hoe, and you haven't even gotten your blade to disturb the ground.

The rest of your errors (or at least the ones I see) I will leave alone for now. No doubt you will repeat them later.

Lets start with your error that man cannot respond to God. The fall certainly darkened the image of God in man and his ability to respond, but it was not annihilated.

Rom 1:18-24 makes that very clear. All men will be judged on the knowledge that they know God and actually need to deny that call in order to separate from God. That man is seeking God is quite obvious in this world. They seek something outside of themselves almost universally.
This is why God can judge all men. God has been calling all men since the beginning. Man responds to that call either positively or negatively.
Rom 8 which you think means man cannot respond to God is speaking to the two sides who have already made their choice. Some men choose the flesh, others choose Christ, or what Paul says the spiritual mind.

Now, in each of these categories man can still change. The man who was following the flesh can choose God, The believer who was living according to the Spirit, can also change and be ruled by the flesh again.

One's salvation depends on man's response to God, and if one chooses God, he must remain faithful in order to inherit salvation. That is what a loving God wants because He is love. He cares for His creatures, who were created in His Image. God is not a respecter of persons. He created man in order to have union and communion with them. No man will be able to complain that he did not know God. Man will have no excuse.
Choose life or death .. Deut 30:15-20, Josh 24:15.

Just a sidebar: If man could not choose, then Satan has nothing to do. And it also makes God a respecter of persons and not a God who is love. Why would the NT be filled with commands of God to believers to remain faithful, if God chooses and holds man as a robot? As well, why the command, if Satan is unable to effect a change in that person. Your whole theology is incongruous and inconsistent with scripture.
In thinking about it. It makes scripture totally unnecessary. Out of humanity God chooses some to have communion with Him and they are unable to do anything about that choice or how they live because that is also controlled by God. Man has no will. What would man do with scriptures, they are just blather, theater, has no bearing on any human. Sounds like the dumb "equity" nonsense of today. Here Satan will have some, God will have some. God does not even need to battle Satan.
Of course, all of these thoughts are diametrically opposite of scripture.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Lets start with your error that man cannot respond to God. The fall certainly darkened the image of God in man and his ability to respond, but it was not annihilated.

Romans 3:12
"All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
Ephesians 2:1-10 "DEAD" "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."
John 3:7 "you must be born again"
Jeremiah 17:9 "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked"

We aren't talking about whether spiritually dead man still bears the image of God or not. We are talking about the ability of Spiritually Dead Man to do anything spiritual.

Rom 1:18-24 makes that very clear. All men will be judged on the knowledge that they know God and actually need to deny that call in order to separate from God. That man is seeking God is quite obvious in this world. They seek something outside of themselves almost universally.
This is why God can judge all men. God has been calling all men since the beginning. Man responds to that call either positively or negatively.

Actually, no. I does not make that clear. Nor does it say all men will be judged on the knowledge that they know God. What it does say is that they are without excuse. They do not "actually need to deny that call in order to separate from God." They are BORN separate from God. Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Rom 8 which you think means man cannot respond to God is speaking to the two sides who have already made their choice. Some men choose the flesh, others choose Christ, or what Paul says the spiritual mind.

They have already chosen. Born spiritually dead and their choices happily continue in that death.

Now, in each of these categories man can still change. The man who was following the flesh can choose God, The believer who was living according to the Spirit, can also change and be ruled by the flesh again.

Assertion. Can you show how it is possible for the dead to do an alive thing?

One's salvation depends on man's response to God, and if one chooses God, he must remain faithful in order to inherit salvation. That is what a loving God wants because He is love. He cares for His creatures, who were created in His Image. God is not a respecter of persons. He created man in order to have union and communion with them. No man will be able to complain that he did not know God. Man will have no excuse.
Choose life or death .. Deut 30:15-20, Josh 24:15.

Out of all the nations on earth he chose Israel, upon whom to show his love. Interestingly, he MADE Israel out of non-Israel, for this very purpose. He didn't ask Abraham if he wanted to do it. Abraham didn't even know what was going on til God told him outright.

It is amazing that you hinge one's eternal destiny on their silly, ignorant, petulant, self-important, selfish, foolish, unreliable, inconsistent, blind, dead surge of emotion.

Just a sidebar: If man could not choose, then Satan has nothing to do.

Nobody says man cannot choose. We are saying that man's choice does not effect (bring about) salvation.

And it also makes God a respecter of persons and not a God who is love. Why would the NT be filled with commands of God to believers to remain faithful, if God chooses and holds man as a robot?

Yeah, you made the same mistake above. Why does God choose Israel? Why does God love Jacob and hate Esau? Go do some exegesis on what it is talking about when it says God is no respecter of persons.

As well, why the command, if Satan is unable to effect a change in that person. Your whole theology is incongruous and inconsistent with scripture.

Who said Satan is unable to push 'believers' — and even the regenerated! — around? You misrepresent my theology. Again.

In thinking about it. It makes scripture totally unnecessary. Out of humanity God chooses some to have communion with Him and they are unable to do anything about that choice or how they live because that is also controlled by God. Man has no will. What would man do with scriptures, they are just blather, theater, has no bearing on any human. Sounds like the dumb "equity" nonsense of today. Here Satan will have some, God will have some. God does not even need to battle Satan.

And......... you continue to misrepresent Calvinism. Just for starters, man most definitely has will. The rest of your paragraph is just as bad.

Of course, all of these thoughts are diametrically opposite of scripture.

If you want to assess what Calvinism/Reformed Theology says, some day, let me know. So far, you have nothing but mistakes based on presumptions, and you invent strawmen to attack.

 

[Cassian]

Romans 3:12
"All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

Paul is quoting Ps 14:3 plus several others, where the first verse tells us the subject of the Ps. Fools say in there hearts. This is not speaking of mankind not being able to choose God.
Now lets look at Rom 3:12. This is part of Paul narrative speaking to Jews living in Rome. Jews had this idea that they were a special people. That just because they were circumcised they had a special place, they kept the law. Gentiles were much less than Jews.
Then Paul states that Jews are not any better than the Gentiles. They all are under sin. He is making a hypothetical response to over state their pride. All have come short of the glory of God. Gentiles failed to keep the natural law, just as much as the Jews failed to keep the law of Moses.
You can read the entire chapter, In fact chap 4 is a continuation.
It does not mean what you need it to mean. Especially when Paul already explained in Chapter 1 how all men will be accountable for their choice.

Ephesians 2:1-10 "DEAD" "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."

This is unique. vs 1-5 This is the result of the Incarnation and what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection. Paul even puts it in parenthesis to clearify that point. This is essentially I Cor 15:22. Which is how the next verses are made possible.

John 3:7 "you must be born again"

Since regeneration or "born again" occurs after faith/belief man has already responded to God. Baptism has always been the result of believe. Jesus and the Apostles even stated it in that order /-Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized. Read Rom 6 which is called the Baptism chapter.

Jeremiah 17:9 "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked"
We aren't talking about whether spiritually dead man still bears the image of God or not. We are talking about the ability of Spiritually Dead Man to do anything spiritual.

God differs with your opinion and so does scripture. God has given all men a measure of faith.
God has given all men knowledge of Him,
The Holy Spirit is calling all men to repentance. If they are totally unable to respond it makes little sense to call them or expect them to respond.
If God first does something to man to make him respond, God becomes a respecter of persons. God would not be love in His essence but in His actions thus capricious.

Actually, no. I does not make that clear. Nor does it say all men will be judged on the knowledge that they know God. What it does say is that they are without excuse. They do not "actually need to deny that call in order to separate from God." They are BORN separate from God. Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

You are still sinful. You still have the capacity to sin like anyone else. The text specifically makes a point that they need to suppress that knowledge which is why they have no excuse. Again your view makes God capricious and a respecter of persons. God cannot judge a person if that person is not responsible. It that what justice means to you? God desires all men to be saved.

They have already chosen. Born spiritually dead and their choices happily continue in that death.

Spiritually dead only means they do not have a relationship with God. It has nothing to do with man's will and inability to respond to God or his calling.

Assertion. Can you show how it is possible for the dead to do an alive thing?

See above. Not having a relationship with God does not mean one cannot choose to have one if he desires.

Out of all the nations on earth he chose Israel, upon whom to show his love. Interestingly, he MADE Israel out of non-Israel, for this very purpose. He didn't ask Abraham if he wanted to do it. Abraham didn't even know what was going on til God told him outright.

Actually, God called him and he answered or rather he obeyed Gen12:4. But then God knew that by His foreknowledge. Just like He chose the disciples, who were righteous as well as Judas, who God knew would betray Jesus.

It is amazing that you hinge one's eternal destiny on their silly, ignorant, petulant, self-important, selfish, foolish, unreliable, inconsistent, blind, dead surge of emotion.

Nobody says man cannot choose. We are saying that man's choice does not effect (bring about) salvation.

then we are back to God being a respecter of persons. God is loving and just. Every human being will choose life or death. That is why God can judge justly.

Yeah, you made the same mistake above. Why does God choose Israel? Why does God love Jacob and hate Esau? Go do some exegesis on what it is talking about when it says God is no respecter of persons.

Again, foreknowledge of God. Israel was disobedient several times, twice punished with captivity and in the end dissolved because Israel served its purpose.

Who said Satan is unable to push 'believers' — and even the regenerated! — around? You misrepresent my theology. Again.

Well maybe you should explain yourself better. I thought you stated that God causes one to believe, then once one believes by predetermination holds them safely through their lives and are saved. If man cannot choose, nor can actually submit his will to God, rather than God taking over his will as you seem to portray.
Explain your view whatever that might be.

And......... you continue to misrepresent Calvinism. Just for starters, man most definitely has will. The rest of your paragraph is just as bad.

If you want to assess what Calvinism/Reformed Theology says, some day, let me know. So far, you have nothing but mistakes based on presumptions, and you invent strawmen to attack.

Show how I misrepresented Calvinism. You say something, but never explain. As above, you say man has a will. Okay, how does that will operate in your view.

 

[Gup20]

Show me that, somewhere in Calvinist or even Reformed theology, where "we are awarded righteousness directly for our faith". There is no earned righteousness, nevermind as some award for our faith. In the strictest sense, 'our faith' isn't even ours. I can't help but guess you don't know what you are talking about.

It is in the concept of "Total Depravity" as presented by Calvinism and Reformed theology. They believe that man is too depraved to have faith generated within himself, and that it is necessary for the Holy Spirit to first indwell the individual and generate the faith necessary for salvation. The reason proposed is because man is too depraved to choose God directly, and that a "sinful, depraved man" cannot influence the will of God. The mechanics of salvation Paul gives in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 dispels this reasoning insomuch as salvation is indirect, first passing through human adoption and inheritance. Therein is the objection that man is too depraved to choose God revealed to be misguided and truly irrelevant. For our faith does not immediately force God to grant us righteousness as Calvin assumed, but rather our faith first qualifies us as descendants of Abraham. It is God's promise to Abraham which causes Him to grant righteousness to the descendants of Abraham, not the faith of the individual to whom righteousness is being granted. So then faith, having first qualified us as a descendant of the Father of Many Nations, is first a means to human adoption into the chosen group. All of those in the chosen group are granted righteousness as a gracious gift via God's promise to Abraham.

Therefore, it is not the will of man which is supposedly forcing God to grant him righteousness, but rather the will of man which grants him human adoption. Our depravity is irrelevant to the question of human adoption as a man can certainly choose human adoption be he completely depraved or not. Once adopted, God's own promise is what motivates Him to gift righteousness to the descendant of Abraham... not their faith.

Further, Calvinism distorts the choice itself. They always say "man is too depraved to choose God." However, that is not the choice presented by God.

Deu 30:19 NASB20 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your seed,​

The choice God sets before us is between life and death, the blessing and the curse. This is a choice we are capable of making (as the pagan king Abimelech did in Genesis 20).

​

Deu 30:11 NASB20 - 11 "For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away.​

Yet we see that faith comes prior to inheritance of righteousness and prior to the indwelling of Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13-14 NASB20 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

 

[Gup20]

I agree with most of what you say, however most of what you are talking about is the Incarnation of Christ and what it accomplished.

I agree that my comments were light on Christ specifically as I am expositing primarily from Romans 4 & Galatians 3 which are equally light on Christ because Paul has already established Christ earlier in each letter & was building upon that elementary foundation explaining the mechanics of them.

I would only ask what specifically you mean when you say Incarnation so that I may understand what nuance & relevance you are specifically referring to.

This is confusing. Christ completely eliminated Adam. That is why Christ is called the Second Adam. He reversed the first Adam.

I was trying to be more specific than this. Saying “Christ completely eliminated Adam” is an overly broad statement which leaves a lot to the subjective hearing of the reader. For example, do you mean at Christ’s incarnation Adam was annihilated and ceased to exist as a person? I don’t think you mean that, but that is certainly a possible interpretation of the phrase “Christ completely eliminated Adam.” By specifically pointing not to Adam as a whole, but to the specific judgement of Adam - death (for dust you are and to dust you will return) - I am focusing on specific aspects of Adam upon which I believe Christ’s incarnation had an effect.

No, His coming into this world, Incarnate, abolished death by His death and resurrection. That was our human natures that died and were raised to life

Hebrews 2:14-16 (NASB20) 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, so that through death He might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For clearly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendants of Abraham.​

I believe the curse of death (Adam’s death judgement) is the original cause of the “sin nature.” More specifically, the fear of that judgement is the cause.

1 John 4:18 (NASB20)​

There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.​

​

Romans 8:15-17 (NASB20) 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons and daughters by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.​

​

Jhn 8:32-34 NASB20 - 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone; how [is it that] You say, 'You will become free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.​

One other thing, I don't know if it was you are another poster but,
Adam's sin was NOT imputed to any man.
Each person is responsible for his own sin. That is why we all will be judged individually at the judgement seat of Christ. We don't confess Adam's sin, we confess OUR sin.

I agree. Romans 5:12 says “death was passed” and not “sin was passed.” We inherit death (judgement) from Adam, not guilt. This is why I say Adam’s judgement was corporate. Similarly by the incarnation of a single righteous man, Christ, that corporate judgement is rendered unjust. As such, the corporate judgment must be repealed (death abolished) and in its place individual judgements must occur (The great white throne judgement). At the abolishing of Adam’s judgement, all who had Adam’s death passed to them will be (physically) resurrected. In the individual judgement, those with faith will have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and those without faith will earn for themselves a second, everlasting death judgement.

 

[Cassian]

I would only ask what specifically you mean when you say Incarnation so that I may understand what nuance & relevance you are specifically referring to.

Incarnation references Christ coming into this world taking on our human natures. Adam's condemnation of death was to our human nature. You use the word "corporate" where I am familiar with universal. Adam's condemnation was universal so also was the resurrection from that death universal. This is why we have a resurrection at the end of time.
We were created as human beings, body and soul. That is what we will have in eternity, both the righteous and the damned.

I was trying to be more specific than this. Saying “Christ completely eliminated Adam” is an overly broad statement which leaves a lot to the subjective hearing of the reader. For example, do you mean at Christ’s incarnation Adam was annihilated and ceased to exist as a person? I don’t think you mean that, but that is certainly a possible interpretation of the phrase “Christ completely eliminated Adam.” By specifically pointing not to Adam as a whole, but to the specific judgement of Adam - death (for dust you are and to dust you will return) - I am focusing on specific aspects of Adam upon which I believe Christ’s incarnation had an effect.

I think you understood. I could have just as easily stated that the fall of man in eliminated. Christ reconciled the created order back to God. The Incarnation removed the power of death and sin to man.

I believe the curse of death (Adam’s death judgement) is the original cause of the “sin nature.” More specifically, the fear of that judgement is the cause.

Correct

I agree. Romans 5:12 says “death was passed” and not “sin was passed.” We inherit death (judgement) from Adam, not guilt. This is why I say Adam’s judgement was corporate. Similarly by the incarnation of a single righteous man, Christ, that corporate judgement is rendered unjust. As such, the corporate judgment must be repealed (death abolished) and in its place individual judgements must occur (The great white throne judgement). At the abolishing of Adam’s judgement, all who had Adam’s death passed to them will be (physically) resurrected.

Yes, all will be raised Incorruptible and immortal.

In the individual judgement, those with faith will have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and those without faith will earn for themselves a second, everlasting death judgement.

That death is a spiritual death, Loss of any relationship with God.

 

[Gup20]

You use the word "corporate" where I am familiar with universal. Adam's condemnation was universal so also was the resurrection from that death universal. This is why we have a resurrection at the end of time.
We were created as human beings, body and soul. That is what we will have in eternity, both the righteous and the damned.

Indeed. I use the term "corporate" as a way to communicate contrast with Adam's judgement and the "individual" judgements of the Great White Throne judgement. For Adam's single sin, judgement came upon Adam, Eve, their offspring, the plants, the animals, the ground... indeed it was a "universal" judgement (as you stated) for a single sin.

Rom 5:16 NASB95 - 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.​

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Rom 8:19-22 NASB95 - 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.​

​

We, like God, are triune beings - body, soul (mind will & emotions), and spirit.

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Heb 4:12 NASB95 - 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Rom 8:10, 16 NASB95 - 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. ... 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,​

It was our spirit which died the moment Adam sinned (death being separation from God). Interestingly, Romans 8:16 is a good mirror to Deuteronomy 30:19 in showing the synergistic nature of the choice for salvation (sorry to my Calvinist brothers & sisters for pointing this out!).

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Rom 8:16 NASB95 - 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,​

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Deu 30:19 NASB95 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

I call heaven (the Spirit Himself) and earth (our spirit) to bare witness (testifies) to the choice we make for salvation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I noticed this also in the OP, that he is confused, I think, as to what ultimate reconcilation means. You use the word here to reference all believers being saved as he did which is what confused me.

Maybe I should ask what is your definition of reconcilation first? Maybe there is a definition I don't know about.

I didn't mean to imply that I took what @Gup20 said seriously, but that it was an interesting POV, and that it could allow Arminians and Universalists to save face concerning 1 Timothy 2:4 and other such passages concerning the meaning of "all", while failing to prove that God did not intend that absolutely all sapient moral agents would be saved. —In other words, I was saying that they would not much like that notion to apply to their favorite verses.

There are too many huge themes to which I am not entirely privy for me to give satisfactory commentary on the subject of "reconciliation". What I do know is that when God reconciles all things to himself, it is not likely to look like what any of us envision by the term.

But I can offer this: I don't think it implies that God will return mankind to a former state, nor that there was a "pre-incarnate" existence of humans, but that the Particular Creation that "Timeless" God spoke into existence, which was —within this 'temporal envelope'— only in infancy, and corrupted, then redeemed and regenerated, will 'become' at the end, the thing he spoke into existence.

Also, it seems to me necessarily related to Hebrews 2 and everything in Scripture that bears on the passage, particularly:

“6...
What is man, that You remember him?
Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him?
7 “You have made him for a little while lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him."

—and all the context that follows it, describing how it was accomplished and why —strong indications of what it means.

 

[Gup20]

I didn't mean to imply that I took what @Gup20 said seriously, but that it was an interesting POV, and that it could allow Arminians and Universalists to save face concerning 1 Timothy 2:4 and other such passages concerning the meaning of "all", while failing to prove that God did not intend that absolutely all sapient moral agents would be saved. —In other words, I was saying that they would not much like that notion to apply to their favorite verses.

There are too many huge themes to which I am not entirely privy for me to give satisfactory commentary on the subject of "reconciliation". What I do know is that when God reconciles all things to himself, it is not likely to look like what any of us envision by the term.

But I can offer this: I don't think it implies that God will return mankind to a former state, nor that there was a "pre-incarnate" existence of humans, but that the Particular Creation that "Timeless" God spoke into existence, which was —within this 'temporal envelope'— only in infancy, and corrupted, then redeemed and regenerated, will 'become' at the end, the thing he spoke into existence.

Also, it seems to me necessarily related to Hebrews 2 and everything in Scripture that bears on the passage, particularly:

“6...
What is man, that You remember him?
Or the son of man, that You are concerned about him?
7 “You have made him for a little while lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
And have appointed him over the works of Your hands;
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him."

—and all the context that follows it, describing how it was accomplished and why —strong indications of what it means.

The part of Ultimate reconciliation which is a lie is that (according to my understanding of their doctrine) they believe that all mankind will be "saved" and ultimately forgiven of their sin and that none will experience eternal damnation nor eternal torment.

Rev 14:10-11 NASB95 - 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."​

I believe God 'reconciles' all things to Himself through Christ in the sense that they are no longer separated from God... but here we see their being in the presence of the Lamb does NOT spare them from eternal torment or suffering nor everlasting judgement. This also speaks to the concept of Limited Atonement in that, yes, while the righteousness of Christ is only for those with faith, His [incarnation] or appearing also has the affect of abolishing death - Adam's first judgement which persists even till this day.

Rev 20:13-14 NASB95 - 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

When Adam's corporate, universal judgement (death) is repealed, and as a result ALL are resurrected, we will ALL face a new, individual judgement - the Great White Throne judgement. So while Christ's righteousness is limited to the faithful, the wholistic effect of His [incarnation/appearing] is in fact, universal.

 

[AbbaLove]

Show me that, somewhere in Calvinist or even Reformed theology, where "we are awarded righteousness directly for our faith". There is no earned righteousness, nevermind as some award for our faith. In the strictest sense, 'our faith' isn't even ours. I can't help but guess you don't know what you are talking about.

Round and round you guys/gals GO depending on [indoctrinated] denominational theology combined with your owntheology ... "we are awarded righteousness directly for our faith". That all depends on how one's own theology interprets (defines) ... "Without Faith It Is Impossible To Please GOD" ... as well as their interpretation of Hebrews 11 - (Faith In Action).

How can each of you think your theology is GOD-Given (not based on your OWN understanding) when theologians disagree (e.g. Calvinism vs Arminianism)? Even Calvinists (reformed theologians) can't all agree when it comes to defining: What is "reformed thelogy".

BOTTOMLINE: Religious man does more to complicate the Word Of GOD. That's why there are so many religious denominations. With each one believing they are right and the others not-so-right or WRONG. Can't even agree on "reconciliation" ... pathethic indeed.

 

[Der Alte]

Round and round you guys/gals GO depending on [indoctrinated] denominational theology combined with your owntheology ... "we are awarded righteousness directly for our faith". That all depends on how one's own theology interprets (defines) ... "Without Faith It Is Impossible To Please GOD" ... as well as their interpretation of Hebrews 11 - (Faith In Action).
How can each of you think your theology is GOD-Given (not based on your OWN understanding) when theologians disagree (e.g. Calvinism vs Arminianism)? Even Calvinists (reformed theologians) can't all agree when it comes to defining: What is "reformed thelogy".
BOTTOMLINE: Religious man does more to complicate the Word Of GOD. That's why there are so many religious denominations. With each one believing they are right and the others not-so-right or WRONG. Can't even agree on "reconciliation" ... pathethic indeed.

Instead of broad brush criticizing all of us why don't you tell us lesser mortals what the true, truth really is?
Please give me your opinion what Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:46, Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28 "really means."

 

[Cassian]

Indeed. I use the term "corporate" as a way to communicate contrast with Adam's judgement and the "individual" judgements of the Great White Throne judgement. For Adam's single sin, judgement came upon Adam, Eve, their offspring, the plants, the animals, the ground... indeed it was a "universal" judgement (as you stated) for a single sin.

That is correct, but you missed a step. Christ in His Incarnation give life to all men. Overcame that condemnation of death.. Using your word, that was also corporate.

Rom 5:16 NASB95 - 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.​

​

Rom 8:19-22 NASB95 - 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.​

​

We, like God, are triune beings - body, soul (mind will & emotions), and spirit.

​

Heb 4:12 NASB95 - 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.​

​

Rom 8:10, 16 NASB95 - 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. ... 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,​

It was our spirit which died the moment Adam sinned (death being separation from God). Interestingly, Romans 8:16 is a good mirror to Deuteronomy 30:19 in showing the synergistic nature of the choice for salvation (sorry to my Calvinist brothers & sisters for pointing this out!).

It was our bodies that died. Our physical bodies that were condemned to death, dust to dust. separation of body and soul. Adam probably never lost his relationship with God. God also had a relationship with Able and many others in the OT.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is in the concept of "Total Depravity" as presented by Calvinism and Reformed theology. They believe that man is too depraved to have faith generated within himself, and that it is necessary for the Holy Spirit to first indwell the individual and generate the faith necessary for salvation. The reason proposed is because man is too depraved to choose God directly, and that a "sinful, depraved man" cannot influence the will of God. The mechanics of salvation Paul gives in Romans 4 and Galatians 3 dispels this reasoning insomuch as salvation is indirect, first passing through human adoption and inheritance. Therein is the objection that man is too depraved to choose God revealed to be misguided and truly irrelevant. For our faith does not immediately force God to grant us righteousness as Calvin assumed, but rather our faith first qualifies us as descendants of Abraham. It is God's promise to Abraham which causes Him to grant righteousness to the descendants of Abraham, not the faith of the individual to whom righteousness is being granted. So then faith, having first qualified us as a descendant of the Father of Many Nations, is first a means to human adoption into the chosen group. All of those in the chosen group are granted righteousness as a gracious gift via God's promise to Abraham.

This seems strange to me, but I haven't read Calvin's institutes, nor do I know upon whom to refer for Calvinism's or Reformed Theology's representative. Most of what I have heard from Calvin is by way of opponents to Calvinism quoting what he said. And most of those quotes are taken out of context, to say what they want them to say; but here, you don't even quote him. It seems strange to me because some of doesn't sound representative of what I understand Calvinism nor Reformed Theology to say. But if you want me to debate your thinking here on the basis of what I believe, according to your representations of it, I have to call a Strawmanality foul. Where's the ref?

As far as I know, both Calvinism and Reformed theology, (and certainly, I), don't use the terminology that "man is too depraved". I use the terminology that his depravity (which, by the way, is total) renders him unable. It is not a question of how depraved he is, but whether he even can approach God, nevermind the fact that he always WILLS to not approach God. It is not because he is VERY DEPRAVED. It is because he is TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

As I am not their representative, I can't speak to the their position on time sequence in regeneration producing faith, but to me, the passage of time is irrelevant in the matter. By way of CAUSE, Regeneration must come first, as Scripture has taught me, but (again, time passage-irrelevant) regeneration necessarily produces faith, salvation, repentance, obedience and all the virtues that come subsequent to salvation. Not only that, but the nature of Regeneration —i.e. the re-birth by the Spirit of God placed within the elect— whenever it happens— is the very power behind the reality of those virtues: Salvific Faith, and genuine belief, genuine repentance, submissive obedience (not just compliance) and so on, not to mention the delight and satisfaction in Christ, and the introduction into and continuation of growth in the knowledge of Christ.

Cry out as you will that the order is wrong; the causation is right. It is only by the power of God that any of this has ANY integrity. Not by the ability of man to do anything in and of himself —not even by way of HELPING God to do it. The faith by which we believe on Christ, and even by which we continue in him, does not depend on our ignorant, silly, fitful, selfish, self-important, rebellious, emotional, capricious wills, and particularly not the will of the lost, at enmity with God! But rather, by the will of God who works his power in us by the Spirit of God. But I have yet to hear that the causation is disproven by the order in any passage.

This is running long, but let me continue: Where does this notion come from: "a "sinful, depraved man" cannot influence the will of God"? What will are you talking about —the decree or the command? —the hidden will or the revealed will? And what is this vague word, "influence"? Influence how? To what end? Do you think Calvinism rejects the notion that God heard sinful, depraved Israel's cry from their bondage before he even called Abraham? But it is a moot claim. It is not because sinful, depraved man cannot influence the will of God, that God does not hear them. They don't even ask.

Calvin assumed that "our faith immediately forces God to grant us righteousness"??? What??? At the first you said Calvinism has God generating the faith (which I agree they do), and now you have him being forced to do something as a result of what he chooses to do out of the counsel of his own will? I don't hear God over there muttering to himself. Where does Calvin say God is Forced to do anything, and please, in context.

Now to the argument of your claim. I want you to show me that even regenerated man is in and of himself capable of the wisdom, knowledge, understanding to even know what his faith is about to make such an effective decision, and the faithfulness, resolution, single-mindedness, power and force of will to see it through.

I'll stop here for tonight.

Therefore, it is not the will of man which is supposedly forcing God to grant him righteousness, but rather the will of man which grants him human adoption. Our depravity is irrelevant to the question of human adoption as a man can certainly choose human adoption be he completely depraved or not. Once adopted, God's own promise is what motivates Him to gift righteousness to the descendant of Abraham... not their faith.

Further, Calvinism distorts the choice itself. They always say "man is too depraved to choose God." However, that is not the choice presented by God.

Deu 30:19 NASB20 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your seed,
The choice God sets before us is between life and death, the blessing and the curse. This is a choice we are capable of making (as the pagan king Abimelech did in Genesis 20).
Deu 30:11 NASB20 - 11 "For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away.

Yet we see that faith comes prior to inheritance of righteousness and prior to the indwelling of Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13-14 NASB20 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Gup20]

It is not a question of how depraved he is, but whether he even can approach God, nevermind the fact that he always WILLS to not approach God. It is not because he is VERY DEPRAVED. It is because he is TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

I think that is a distinction without a difference. Calvinism says man is incapable of "choosing" or "approaching" or "surrendering" to God. This is why I point out the mechanics of salvation in that faith indirectly leads to righteousness by way of human adoption. A totally depraved man is capable of choosing human adoption... a totally depraved man is capable of approaching human adoption. A totally depraved man is capable of surrendering to human adoption. Making the choice for human adoption is not too difficult for him, nor is choosing life out of reach for him.

Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB95 - 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants (seed), to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

So the choice is between life and death. Even a totally depraved man, when given the choice between life and death, can choose life.

Gen 20:2-3, 7, 14-17 NASB95 - 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married." ... 7 "Now therefore, restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore [her,] know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." ... 14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him. 15 Abimelech said, "Behold, my land is before you; settle wherever you please." 16 To Sarah he said, "Behold, I have given your brother a thousand pieces of silver; behold, it is your vindication before all who are with you, and before all men you are cleared." 17 Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore [children.]​

God gave the Totally Depraved, pagan king Abimelech a choice between life and death, and Abimelech chose life. His depravity did not prevent him from making the choice. He was unsaved, unrighteous, and the Holy Spirit never came to indwell him and make him hear it that he should obey it. But even though Abimelech made the right choice, he still had no power to save himself, he still needed Abraham - the prophet - to be a mediator between he and God (just as we who in our own Totally Depraved will can chose life but still need Christ, the mediator between God and man).

BTW - the savior of the world was sold for 30 pieces of silver, but Sarah was 1,000 pieces of silver. Just goes to show you that beautiful women are astronomically costly

 

[Mark Quayle]

The part of Ultimate reconciliation which is a lie is that (according to my understanding of their doctrine) they believe that all mankind will be "saved" and ultimately forgiven of their sin and that none will experience eternal damnation nor eternal torment.

Rev 14:10-11 NASB95 - 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."​

I believe God 'reconciles' all things to Himself through Christ in the sense that they are no longer separated from God... but here we see their being in the presence of the Lamb does NOT spare them from eternal torment or suffering nor everlasting judgement. This also speaks to the concept of Limited Atonement in that, yes, while the righteousness of Christ is only for those with faith, His [incarnation] or appearing also has the affect of abolishing death - Adam's first judgement which persists even till this day.

​

Rev 20:13-14 NASB95 - 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

When Adam's corporate, universal judgement (death) is repealed, and as a result ALL are resurrected, we will ALL face a new, individual judgement - the Great White Throne judgement. So while Christ's righteousness is limited to the faithful, the wholistic effect of His [incarnation/appearing] is in fact, universal.

I think that's an awful stretch, just so you know where I stand, to say that Christ having abolished death only means that all humanity will be raised, including those raised to condemnation. When Christ abolished death, he abolished: 1. its 'physical' power over the redeemed, whose bodies are a temple, 2. the slavery to it, 3. the condemnation of the elect. 4. Remotely, though I don't categorize it with this, (for a couple of reasons), it is said that God's imputation of Adam's sin upon us is also abolished in the abolition of death. I see no mention in scripture of this applying to the resurrection of the condemned. That interpretation seems forced, to me.

 

[Gup20]

I think that's an awful stretch, just so you know where I stand, to say that Christ having abolished death only means that all humanity will be raised, including those raised to condemnation. When Christ abolished death, he abolished: 1. its 'physical' power over the redeemed, whose bodies are a temple, 2. the slavery to it, 3. the condemnation of the elect. 4. Remotely, though I don't categorize it with this, (for a couple of reasons), it is said that God's imputation of Adam's sin upon us is also abolished in the abolition of death. I see no mention in scripture of this applying to the resurrection of the condemned. That interpretation seems forced, to me.

This interpretation is due in part to these scriptures, all of which seem to speak to the wicked, unsaved people also being resurrected (a universal resurrection):

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

​

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

​

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​