Everyone will be resurrected, regardless of their faith in Christ - but Ultimate Reconciliation is a lie

[Gup20]

Some believe that Christ’s sacrifice and redemption was limited, or only for those with faith. It is said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all humans will be resurrected from Adam’s universal, corporate judgement, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

​

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

​

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

​

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

So Christ’s righteousness entering the world resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.

Additionally, try to make sense of this apparent contradiction without this knowledge on resurrection:

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.​

​

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.​

This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is. Because of Christ, that original universal judgment of death will be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Then, as John 5:28 says, there will be a resurrection of all – the good to a resurrection of life, and the evil to a resurrection of a second judgment and a second death.

2 Timothy 1:10
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

Notice how death (Adam’s death judgment) is abolished by Christ’s appearing, not by his sacrificial death and resurrection. The very presence of a single person without sin into the world necessitates a repeal (abolishing) of Adam’s death judgment… a vacating of the universal judgment in lieu of individual judgments at the Great White Throne.

Unlike Adam’s corporate, universal judgment, we will one day have individual judgments. That is what the Great White Throne judgement is; it is an individual judgement. It is the individual judgement where Christ’s sacrifice covers our sins. So obtaining salvation does not resurrect us from the dead... Christ appearing as a single, righteous person on earth accomplished that.

Revelation 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.​

Consider that Adam committed a SINGLE SIN for which the curse and judgement of death fell upon the whole world. To resurrect every human being (and probably animal) who has ever died as a result of that single sin, ONLY THE ONE SIN has to be undone/forgiven/re-adjudicated. In other words, vacating the corporate judgement of the one sin of Adam reverses its affect on every living and dead person WITHOUT RESPECT WHATSOEVER TO THEIR INDIVIDUAL SIN. Then they can be judged individually for their own sin.

 

[Hmm]

Alternatively,

19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
- Colossians 1:19-20

 

[Gup20]

Alternatively,

19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
- Colossians 1:19-20

I don't know what you're saying here. Will you explain your point?

 

[Hmm]

I don't know what you're saying here. Will you explain your point?

No need. The verse speaks for itself.

 

[Der Alte]

Alternatively,
19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
- Colossians 1:19-20

I don't know what you're saying here. Will you explain your point?

PMFBI but I think the poster is saying that the one out-of-context vs. he quoted trumps the ten vss. you quoted.

 

[Der Alte]

Alternatively,
19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
- Colossians 1:19-20

The words of Paul cannot supersede the words of Jesus, Himself! If the writings of Paul or any other NT writer appear to conflict with the words of Jesus, they must be interpreted to agree with the words of Jesus. No, ifs, ands or buts!

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven – only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
(22) On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many powerful deeds in your name?’
(23) Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’​

Jesus never said all mankind will enter heaven. Rather Jesus said "Not everyone will enter into the kingdom of heaven." Then Jesus will say "On that day," i.e. Judgement day, "many" not a few "will say" to Him
"Lord, Lord, didn’t we do many powerful deeds in your name?" To which Jesus will reply, ‘I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!"

 

[Jipsah]

PMFBI but I think the poster is saying that the one out-of-context vs. he quoted trumps the ten vss. you quoted.

Care to 'splain how the context changes it?

 

[Der Alte]

Care to 'splain how the context changes it?

Glad to. But that should be your job. How? If it's a done deal why all the warnings?

Colossians 1:23​

(23) if indeed you remain in the faith, established and firm, without shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard. This gospel has also been preached in all creation under heaven, and I, Paul, have become its servant.​

Colossians 2:6​

(6) Therefore, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him,​

Colossians 2:8​

(8) Be careful not to allow anyone to captivate you through an empty, deceitful philosophy that is according to human traditions and the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.​

Colossians 2:16​

(16) Therefore do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in the matter of a feast, new moon, or Sabbath days –​

Colossians 2:17​

(17) these are only the shadow of the things to come, but the reality is Christ!​

Colossians 2:18​

(18) Let no one who delights in false humility and the worship of angels pass judgment on you. That person goes on at great lengths about what he has supposedly seen, but he is puffed up with empty notions by his fleshly mind.​

Colossians 3:5-7​

(5) So put to death whatever in your nature belongs to the earth: sexual immorality, impurity, shameful passion, evil desire, and greed which is idolatry.​

(6) Because of these things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.​

Read the following also written by Paul.
= = =

1 Corinthians 6:9-10​

(9) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals,​

(10) thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.​

= = = ​

Galatians 5:19-21​

(19) Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity,​

(20) idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions,​

(21) envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!​

= = = ​

Ephesians 5:5​

(5) For you can be confident of this one thing: that no person who is immoral, impure, or greedy (such a person is an idolater) has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.​

= = =​

1 Corinthians 3:17​

(17) If someone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, which is what you are.​

 

[Gup20]

No need. The verse speaks for itself.

The verse you quoted seems to have no relevance to my post.

Eph 4:10 NASB95 - 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)​

Just because Christ filled all things (including Hell) doesn't mean that the people there escape eternal torment.

Dan 12:2 NASB95 - 2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace [and] everlasting contempt.​

​

Rev 14:10-11 NASB95 - 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."​

​

Rev 20:10, 14 NASB95 - 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. ... 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.​

​

Rev 21:8 NASB95 - 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part [will be] in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."​

In Rev 14 we see that they will be tormented forever in the presence of the Lamb. So their reconciliation to Jesus didn't save them from eternal torment.


Consider the following mental exercise;
If you commit the offense of killing a living creature, consider how "evil" it is. If you kill an ant, is this a huge crime? If you kill a family's much beloved pet dog, is this the same as killing the ant, or is it worse? It is much worse. And what about killing a human being? Is this the same as killing the dog, or is it much worse? It is orders of magnitude worse. So you see how the exact same offense - killing a living creature - varies in severity depending upon whom it was perpetrated against. Now how evil would it be to commit an offense against an infinite being? It would be infinitely evil wouldn't it? Because of the infinite nature of God, sin against God is an INFINITELY evil action. Therefore, the only justice commensurate with the crime is an infinite punishment. If this wasn't true, then God wouldn't be God, and God wouldn't be just.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Seems to be missing "born again" content.

Until someone is born again of the Holy Spirit, they are still, of Adam.

Agreeing to a philosophy based on the bible does not result in salvation.

 

[Gup20]

Seems to be missing "born again" content.

Until someone is born again of the Holy Spirit, they are still, of Adam.

Agreeing to a philosophy based on the bible does not result in salvation.

Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.

By a single righteous person appearing (Christ), it makes a universal, corporate judgement unjust (Adam’s death judgement). Adam’s judgement (death) has to be vacated (resurrection of all who died under Adam’s judgement) and in its place there has to be individual judgements (the Great White Throne judgement).

Those who are born again (have Christs righteousness applied to them because of their faith in the gospel) will fare well in the individual judgements.

 

[Sorn]

Some believe that Christ’s sacrifice and redemption was limited, or only for those with faith. It is said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all humans will be resurrected from Adam’s universal, corporate judgement, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.

Acts 24:15​

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

​

John 5:28​

“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,​

29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

​

Revelation 21:8​

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

​

Daniel 12:1​

Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.​

2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

So Christ’s righteousness entering the world resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.

Additionally, try to make sense of this apparent contradiction without this knowledge on resurrection:

Numbers 14:18​

The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.​

​

Ezekiel 18:20​

The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.​

This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is. Because of Christ, that original universal judgment of death will be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Then, as John 5:28 says, there will be a resurrection of all – the good to a resurrection of life, and the evil to a resurrection of a second judgment and a second death.

2 Timothy 1:10​

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

Notice how death (Adam’s death judgment) is abolished by Christ’s appearing, not by his sacrificial death and resurrection. The very presence of a single person without sin into the world necessitates a repeal (abolishing) of Adam’s death judgment… a vacating of the universal judgment in lieu of individual judgments at the Great White Throne.

Unlike Adam’s corporate, universal judgment, we will one day have individual judgments. That is what the Great White Throne judgement is; it is an individual judgement. It is the individual judgement where Christ’s sacrifice covers our sins. So obtaining salvation does not resurrect us from the dead... Christ appearing as a single, righteous person on earth accomplished that.

Revelation 20:11​

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.​

Consider that Adam committed a SINGLE SIN for which the curse and judgement of death fell upon the whole world. To resurrect every human being (and probably animal) who has ever died as a result of that single sin, ONLY THE ONE SIN has to be undone/forgiven/re-adjudicated. In other words, vacating the corporate judgement of the one sin of Adam reverses its affect on every living and dead person WITHOUT RESPECT WHATSOEVER TO THEIR INDIVIDUAL SIN. Then they can be judged individually for their own sin.

Interesting post, could you expand on why the presence of just 1 sinless individual repeals Adam's sin or the corporate judgement over everyone else please?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Some believe that Christ’s sacrifice and redemption was limited, or only for those with faith. It is said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all humans will be resurrected from Adam’s universal, corporate judgement, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.

Acts 24:15​

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

​

John 5:28​

“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,​

29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

​

Revelation 21:8​

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

​

Daniel 12:1​

Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.​

2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

So Christ’s righteousness entering the world resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.

Additionally, try to make sense of this apparent contradiction without this knowledge on resurrection:

Numbers 14:18​

The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.​

​

Ezekiel 18:20​

The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.​

This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is. Because of Christ, that original universal judgment of death will be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Then, as John 5:28 says, there will be a resurrection of all – the good to a resurrection of life, and the evil to a resurrection of a second judgment and a second death.

2 Timothy 1:10​

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

Notice how death (Adam’s death judgment) is abolished by Christ’s appearing, not by his sacrificial death and resurrection. The very presence of a single person without sin into the world necessitates a repeal (abolishing) of Adam’s death judgment… a vacating of the universal judgment in lieu of individual judgments at the Great White Throne.

Unlike Adam’s corporate, universal judgment, we will one day have individual judgments. That is what the Great White Throne judgement is; it is an individual judgement. It is the individual judgement where Christ’s sacrifice covers our sins. So obtaining salvation does not resurrect us from the dead... Christ appearing as a single, righteous person on earth accomplished that.

Revelation 20:11​

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.​

Consider that Adam committed a SINGLE SIN for which the curse and judgement of death fell upon the whole world. To resurrect every human being (and probably animal) who has ever died as a result of that single sin, ONLY THE ONE SIN has to be undone/forgiven/re-adjudicated. In other words, vacating the corporate judgement of the one sin of Adam reverses its affect on every living and dead person WITHOUT RESPECT WHATSOEVER TO THEIR INDIVIDUAL SIN. Then they can be judged individually for their own sin.

There are two resurrections. The first one for the saved. The dead in Christ will rise first and those alive at the time of Jesus Second Coming will meet Him in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17.Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Revelation 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

After the 1000 years, Jesus will raise up those who are not in Christ for condemnation and death. The wages of sin is death and it won't be eternal burning which is not death and makes someone immortal. It's a punishment, not punishing.

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


There is no scripture that says all people are saved. Today is our test and we are told not to harden our hearts "today" in rebellion and disobedience to God. Psalms 95:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 4:6-7

 

[Gup20]

Interesting post, could you expand on why the presence of just 1 sinless individual repeals Adam's sin or the corporate judgement over everyone else please?

Rom 5:12 NASB95 - 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned​

​

2Ti 1:10 NASB95 - 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

​

2Ti 4:1 NASB95 - 1 I solemnly charge [you] in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:​

​

Rev 5:1-10 NASB95 - 1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?" 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I [began] to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals." 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood [men] from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them [to be] a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."​

God universally judged the earth for Adam's one, single sin. Adam, Eve, all humans, all animals, all plants, the ground itself... all were cursed though only Adam sinned.

Rom 5:14 NASB95 - 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

Death reigned over all those between Adam and Moses, even over those who didn't sin in the way Adam sinned. However, they did sin according to the Law of Moses, so none could be technically called righteous. When the Law came it showed the standard of righteousness was too high for anyone to achieve.

Think of it this way... in the USA you are innocent until proven guilty. After Adam, we were judged guilty and from that point on we were guilty until proven innocent. We needed someone to come along who could fulfill the law fully and completely and be innocent. Romans 5 (indeed Paul in many of his writings) makes compare and contrasting statements. He says "this is the ways these concepts are similar" and then "this is the way these concepts are different." He uses statements like "is like" or "as in" and then statements like "is not like" to show a difference.

​

Rom 5:16 NASB95 - 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification.​

Here we see that the guilty judgement arose from a single transgression - meaning the judgement was corporate. However, in contrast to that, the free gift (the gift is the righteousness of Christ - Rom 5:17) arose from many transgressions - meaning the judgement was individual. So from this verse we see that two distinct judgements are indicated. And this makes sense... since Adam's death (adam's judgement) arose from a single transgression, and all the death we see in the world now is a result of that judgement, what would happen if Adam was a "believer" in the gospel (as Abraham was) and that single sin were forgiven? It would undo death for all who had experienced that corporate judgement.

Rom 5:18 NASB95 - 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

1Co 15:21-22 NASB95 - 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

What we see here is Paul drawing a comparison between the life resulting from Christ and the death that resulted from Adam. Adam's death affected all, as did Christ. We know that all will not be saved, but we do know that all will be resurrected - both the righteous and the wicked. Indeed, 1cor 15 is the Bible's definitive word on resurrection. We must assume that the ALL who will be made alive in 1Co 15:22 are the exact same ALL who died as a result of Adam.

Acts 24:15​

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

John 5:28​

“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,​

29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

Revelation 21:8​

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

Daniel 12:1​

Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.​

2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Some believe that Christ’s sacrifice and redemption was limited, or only for those with faith. It is said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all humans will be resurrected from Adam’s universal, corporate judgement, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.

Acts 24:15​

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

​

John 5:28​

“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,​

29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

​

Revelation 21:8​

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

​

Daniel 12:1​

Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.​

2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

So Christ’s righteousness entering the world resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.

Additionally, try to make sense of this apparent contradiction without this knowledge on resurrection:

Numbers 14:18​

The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.​

​

Ezekiel 18:20​

The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.​

This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is. Because of Christ, that original universal judgment of death will be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Then, as John 5:28 says, there will be a resurrection of all – the good to a resurrection of life, and the evil to a resurrection of a second judgment and a second death.

2 Timothy 1:10​

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

Notice how death (Adam’s death judgment) is abolished by Christ’s appearing, not by his sacrificial death and resurrection. The very presence of a single person without sin into the world necessitates a repeal (abolishing) of Adam’s death judgment… a vacating of the universal judgment in lieu of individual judgments at the Great White Throne.

Unlike Adam’s corporate, universal judgment, we will one day have individual judgments. That is what the Great White Throne judgement is; it is an individual judgement. It is the individual judgement where Christ’s sacrifice covers our sins. So obtaining salvation does not resurrect us from the dead... Christ appearing as a single, righteous person on earth accomplished that.

Revelation 20:11​

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.​

Consider that Adam committed a SINGLE SIN for which the curse and judgement of death fell upon the whole world. To resurrect every human being (and probably animal) who has ever died as a result of that single sin, ONLY THE ONE SIN has to be undone/forgiven/re-adjudicated. In other words, vacating the corporate judgement of the one sin of Adam reverses its affect on every living and dead person WITHOUT RESPECT WHATSOEVER TO THEIR INDIVIDUAL SIN. Then they can be judged individually for their own sin.

I agree. Salvation for all who believe and do not reject Him in their lifetime. On the last day, all will be resurrected some to everlasting life and others to condemnation.
Blessings.

 

[Gup20]

There are two resurrections. The first one for the saved. The dead in Christ will rise first and those alive at the time of Jesus Second Coming will meet Him in the air.

Sure, I can get behind that. If you want to delineate the order of resurrection further you could say there are 3 as Christ was resurrected as a first fruit of all who are resurrected so that He would come to have supremacy.

1Co 15:20, 23, 26 NASB95 - 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. ... 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, ... 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.​

There is no scripture that says all people are saved. Today is our test and we are told not to harden our hearts "today" in rebellion and disobedience to God. Psalms 95:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 4:6-7

I agree. The distinction I'm making here is that, while all people are resurrected, not all will be saved. Some will be resurrected to eternal judgement and a second death. My point is that THE RESURRECTION (of all) is the result of vacating Adam's corporate death judgement so that we may all face individual judgements instead (the Great White Throne judgement).

 

[Clare73]

Some believe that Christ’s sacrifice and redemption was limited, or only for those with faith. It is said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all humans will be resurrected from Adam’s universal, corporate judgement, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.

Acts 24:15​

having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.​

​

John 5:28​

“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,​

29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.​

​

Revelation 21:8​

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

​

Daniel 12:1​

Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.​

2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

So Christ’s righteousness entering the world resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.

Additionally, try to make sense of this apparent contradiction without this knowledge on resurrection:

Numbers 14:18​

The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.​

​

Ezekiel 18:20​

The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.​

This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is. Because of Christ, that original universal judgment of death will be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Then, as John 5:28 says, there will be a resurrection of all – the good to a resurrection of life, and the evil to a resurrection of a second judgment and a second death.

2 Timothy 1:10​

10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

Notice how death (Adam’s death judgment) is abolished by Christ’s appearing, not by his sacrificial death and resurrection. The very presence of a single person without sin into the world necessitates a repeal (abolishing) of Adam’s death judgment… a vacating of the universal judgment in lieu of individual judgments at the Great White Throne.

Unlike Adam’s corporate, universal judgment, we will one day have individual judgments. That is what the Great White Throne judgement is; it is an individual judgement. It is the individual judgement where Christ’s sacrifice covers our sins. So obtaining salvation does not resurrect us from the dead... Christ appearing as a single, righteous person on earth accomplished that.

Revelation 20:11​

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds.​

Consider that Adam committed a SINGLE SIN for which the curse and judgement of death fell upon the whole world. To resurrect every human being (and probably animal) who has ever died as a result of that single sin, ONLY THE ONE SIN has to be undone/forgiven/re-adjudicated. In other words, vacating the corporate judgement of the one sin of Adam reverses its affect on every living and dead person WITHOUT RESPECT WHATSOEVER TO THEIR INDIVIDUAL SIN. Then they can be judged individually for their own sin.

Does that not leave you with God unjustly requiring twice payment for the sin of the unbeliever, first by Christ, and then by the unbeliever?

 

[Gup20]

Does that not leave you with God unjustly requiring twice payment for the sin of the unbeliever, first by Christ, and then by the unbeliever?

No, I don't think so. That is why Adam's judgement is "abolished" (vacated, repealed, eliminated) and ALL (even sinners) are resurrected to life. It says he abolished death by His appearing, not by His atonement. The fact that there was 1 righteous person in the earth means Adam's universal, corporate judgement of death is no longer sufficiently just and therefore it must be vacated in lieu of individual judgments. In truth, the "original sin" and it's judgement of "original death" is what kills people on the earth today. They are not dying for their own sin, but as a result of Adam's sin and subsequent death judgement (for dust you are and to dust you will return) and The Curse. They are not living after death because they cannot be judged righteous (by The Law) as Christ was.

Note the following from the original post:

Additionally, try to make sense of this apparent contradiction without this knowledge on resurrection:

Numbers 14:18​

The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Ezekiel 18:20​

The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
​

This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is.

The future change to the system is that everyone will be judged as individuals. That is what the Great White Throne judgement is... people getting judged individually. Contrastingly, Adam's judgement was universal in that He, Eve, his children, all animals, all plants, and the ground itself were all cursed for his one, single sin. That corporate judgement will be abolished and instead there will be individual judgements. It is in the individual judgements where the blood of Christ, His atonement, and His righteousness covers our individual sin. That righteousness will be applied to believers on an individual basis based on whether or not they had faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Sorn]

No, I don't think so. That is why Adam's judgement is "abolished" (vacated, repealed, eliminated) and ALL (even sinners) are resurrected to life. It says he abolished death by His appearing, not by His atonement.

But how does His appearing, or that of anyone else if they had managed to live a sinless life, abolish the sin of Adam. Standard Christian theology says that it was Jesus's death that paid for Adam's sin & our own individual sins.

That isn't what you are saying, so how does the mere appearance of Jesus in human form abolish the corporate sin of Adam?

To put it another way, according to your position, if Jesus had not died but lived on, teaching etc, and then eventually just ascended to heaven, then Adams sin would still be abolished though not our own individual sins. Other than 1 verse, are there others that support this view, that i underlined, or in your words how would this work??

Put yet another way, if I managed to live a sinless life I would expect to not need Jesus to get into Heaven, sure , He would still be God and I would still need to submit to Him but I would not need to avail myself of His death to cover my sins. However, i don't see how me living a sinless life, if I managed it, would benefit anyone else.

 

[Gup20]

But how does His appearing, or that of anyone else if they had managed to live a sinless life, abolish the sin of Adam. Standard Christian theology says that it was Jesus's death that paid for Adam's sin & our own individual sins.

That isn't what you are saying, so how does the mere appearance of Jesus in human form abolish the corporate sin of Adam?

To put it another way, according to your position, if Jesus had not died but lived on, teaching etc, and then eventually just ascended to heaven, then Adams sin would still be abolished though not our own individual sins. Other than 1 verse, are there others that support this view, that i underlined, or in your words how would this work??

Above in another response, i said the following:

Rom 5:18 NASB95 - 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

1Co 15:21-22 NASB95 - 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

What we see here is Paul drawing a comparison between the life resulting from Christ and the death that resulted from Adam. Adam's death affected all, as did Christ. We know that all will not be saved, but we do know that all will be resurrected - both the righteous and the wicked. Indeed, 1cor 15 is the Bible's definitive word on resurrection. We must assume that the ALL who will be made alive in 1Co 15:22 are the exact same ALL who died as a result of Adam.

How many sins must be forgiven for ALL of humanity throughout all of time to be resurrected?

Rom 5:12, 15-18 NASB95 - 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned ... 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

Judgement arose from 1 transgression. 1 single sin resulted in the death & condemnation of all men. So the question is -- how many transgressions must be reversed to reverse the curse of death upon all humans throughout history? One! Reverse the judgement of Adam's single transgression, and it resurrects every human being who has ever died from it - which the scripture says is ALL mankind. It says that, just like the one transgression, one act of righteousness resulted in justification to life of the same ALL men. Which act of righteousness on Jesus' part was it? For He did many acts of righteousness. In fact ANY one of His righteous acts is enough to render Adam's corporate death judgement insufficient and unjust. It, therefore, must be abolished so that the single, righteous individual can be judged separately from the corporate body. Moreover, God made a way whereby others may inherit Christ's righteousness. This necessitates that ALL mankind be judged individually, rather than having 1 corporate judgement for the whole of creation. But you cannot have conflicting judgements, so the fist judgement has to be abolished or vacated in order to make individual judgements.

Put another way, if I managed to live a sinless life I would expect to not need Jesus to get into Heaven, sure , He would still be God and I would still need to submit to Him but I would not need to avail myself of His death to cover my sins. However, i don't see how me living a sinless life, if I managed it, would benefit anyone else.

This is an enormously insightful question. I'm glad you asked.

Heb 13:20 NASB95 - 20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [even] Jesus our Lord,​

To answer it, we need to look to HOW and by WHOM Jesus was resurrected. Jesus did not resurrect Himself, but waited on God to raise Him from the dead. He was raised through the "eternal covenant." Which covenant is that?

We know that The Law is not eternal, but as Hebrews says

Heb 8:13 NASB95 - 13 When He said, "A new [covenant,]" He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.​

So which covenant is eternal? There are several covenants; Noah, Abraham, David, etc.

Gen 17:7 NASB95 - 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your SEED after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your SEED after you.​

In Genesis 17, God changes Abram's name to Abraham (foreshadowing being born again) and tells him he will be the father of many nations. Then promises him and his SEED (from those many nations) that they would have an eternal covenant.

Who is that seed?

Gal 3:16 NASB95 - 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

The seed is Jesus Christ. So God makes a promise to Jesus Christ that he would INHERIT this covenant.

Gen 15:5-6 NASB95 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your SEED be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.​

We know the SEED is Jesus Christ. God took Abraham outside and told him the good news (gospel) SPECIFICALLY ABOUT JESUS CHRIST, and when Abraham believed him, God credited him with righteousness. A credit is a promise to pay in full at a later time. The Bible confirms God preached the gospel to Abraham.

Gal 3:6-9 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

So Christ gave up his righteousness, and it was given to Abraham. God then promises that all of Abraham's descendants would inherit this covenant of righteousness. Those who have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had are considered his descendants and are heirs of Christ's righteousness which He gave up to become a curse for us. So all Jesus has to do to be qualified to inherit his righteousness back from Abraham is believe God's promise to Him.

Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

The eternal covenant God gave to Abraham was actually being made to Christ through Abraham. God was promising HIS OWN SON that if he came to earth and gave up his righteousness that he would inherit it back and be raised to life again.

Gal 3:18-19 NASB95 - 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.​

The SEED to whom the promise had been made Paul just established two verses earlier in Gal 3:16 is Jesus Christ. So Jesus Christ was raised from the dead through the Abrahamic covenant of inheriting righteousness through faith in the gospel. Jesus believed God's promise just as Abraham did, and therefore become an inheritor of the righteousness that was credited to Abraham. That righteousness was Christ's own righteousness which he would give up by becoming a curse for us and by becoming sin that we might become righteous. Through INHERITANCE and because of God's promise (and God cannot be lie), the righteousness of 1 man is multiplied to many.

When we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had, we qualify as his descendants and become heirs of the righteousness Christ gave to him and God promised as an inheritance to his descendants. By inheriting that righteousness we are able to overcome death, just as Christ did when he inherited his own righteousness back to himself. Christ's resurrection proved the covenant of faith works.